Chinese Investors Driving Up Metro Housing Prices

[Caliplanner1]

Originally Posted by Vin

Paris's tight and sometimes claustrophobic roads and alleys due to mid-rise apartments and buildings can be tolerated or even enhanced by the excellency in architecture, lots of shops and cafes, and occasionally little parks and historical squares. People actually enjoy looking up at the buildings when strolling down the streets. There are also no single family homes in the city as the entire place is built mid-rise. Hence they can achieve that kind of density, like you claimed, 5x that of Vancouver.

Vancouver is different: with mediocre architecture like what you see in OV and mass areas of SFH and industrial lands that the City isn't willing to give up, we will never achieve any sustainable densities for efficient public transit without going tall, like 50-70 storey tall. Also with our desire to see the ocean and mountains that Paris has none, living in that kind of claustrophobic Paris-style apartments just don't work...kapish amigo?

Having said that, Paris/ London are all establishing new neighbourhoods and going really tall. They have "moved on" from their traditional mid-rise city concept, and are still successful doing that. Vancouver wanting to do the old Parisian/London concept is nothing innovative, and this city would be a very very sad place to live in if it's built like OV everywhere, with dark streets and seafoam glass "in your face" everywhere you walk.

These are very old/congested European cities that you're comparing with a (relatively) young/almost "pre-school aged" city in the form of Vancouver.

[whatnext]

More shenanigans:

The prospective buyers of a $2.46 million Richmond home put down a $120,000 deposit. When they were turned down at three major national banks for financing to complete the deal, an employee at RBC Royal Bank of Canada and a real estate agent at Richmond-based Metro Edge Realty advised them to exaggerate and/or fake assets in China in order to qualify for a mortgage here, according to a notice of civil claim filed in B.C. Supreme Court. None of the allegations in the claim have been proven in court.

Yan Zhao and Wei Na Hao, who currently live in Richmond and are originally from China, claim in court filings that they were told to persuade “family and friends in China to lend their (Chinese-language deposit slips)” and then to doctor them to look as if they were the ones with these Chinese assets...

http://vancouversun.com/business/mor...-richmond-home

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Caliplanner1

These are very old/congested European cities that you're comparing with a (relatively) young/almost "pre-school aged" city in the form of Vancouver.

Jebby was the one who brought up Paris. I thought Vancouver shouldn't be compared to Paris as the two cities are vastly different in terms of built-form.

[Cypherus]

Originally Posted by wrenegade

great to see the CRA start to do their job only after an expose in the media. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the Federal Government and the CRA are the most to blame for the housing crisis here because of things like this.

Yes and the CRA has powers to go back as many years as they want to recover unpaid taxes from property flipping and contract assignment (including GST/HST), even if the years are stat. barred (beyond 3 year normal assessment period) because the taxpayers knowingly or circumstances amounting to gross negligent failed to report the income. CRA would also levy a 50% penalty on avoided tax from unreported income, and 10% penalty for failure to report the amount for each year, plus interest. In any case, that's a lot of money the government hopes to be booking.

[s211]

And yet the same articles indicate that CRA staff were not too compelled to audit problematic files, given the shouts of "RACISM RACISM" out there.

Hell, just treat everyone equally. Then they can't play the racism card. Frankly, I'd cry reverse racism if I'd been audited instead of someone else because of their ethnic background.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Vin

Jebby was the one who brought up Paris. I thought Vancouver shouldn't be compared to Paris as the two cities are vastly different in terms of built-form.

I brought up Paris to show that highrises aren't the only way you can get density.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Jebby

I brought up Paris to show that highrises aren't the only way you can get density.

Correct. Three to five blocks of midrises can get you the same as one block of highrises.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Correct. Three to five blocks of midrises can get you the same as one block of highrises.

Only if you can convince everyone in the city to get rid of their SFH and replace with midrises can we get the density of Paris. If not, only way is to go high.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Correct. Three to five blocks of midrises can get you the same as one block of highrises.

Actually one block of midrise can get you pretty much as much density as one block of high-rise. It all depends on the massing.

Since Vancouver would never allow 20,000 square foot floor plate for residential towers, you end up with point towers with 7,000 square foot floor plates.

On a typical site of 30,000 square feet with an 8.0 FSR (a lot of density) you can fit about 240,000 square feet of usable space.

25 floors x 6500 square foot usable space and a 4 story podium with 20,000 square feet of usable space.....or
about 10 floors of 24,000 square feet usable space

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Actually one block of midrise can get you pretty much as much density as one block of high-rise. It all depends on the massing.

The Shore in North Van has just as many units as a 30 storey highrise despite never getting higher than six storeys. Can't find a photo showing all of its density though. Every photo downplays how close the buildings are of course.

Here's an incredibly rough sketch of their final form on ms paint

[retro_orange]

delete

[retro_orange]

Class-action lawsuit filed against B.C.'s foreign buyer property tax


Chinese student leads court action, demanding repayment of all money paid by foreign national home buyers

By Eric Rankin, CBC NewsIt's taken just over six weeks, but B.C.'s controversial tax on foreign home buyers is now facing a major legal challenge.
A class-action lawsuit has been filed in B.C. Supreme Court on behalf of virtually all non-Canadians who have been forced to pay an extra 15 per cent under amendments to the Property Transfer tax act.
If the lawsuit is certified by the courts and succeeds, the province could be forced to repay hundreds of millions of dollars — much of the expected revenue now earmarked to pay for affordable housing for British Columbians.
The additional charge went into effect August 2, brought in by the B.C. government in an attempt to cool down Metro Vancouver's overheated real estate market.
Foreign investors, especially from mainland China, have been blamed by some for fuelling high home prices.
Lead plaintiff a university student

The lead plaintiff in the case is Jing Li, 29, a university student from the People's Republic of China, now living in Burnaby.
In August, Jing told CBC News she was caught in a financial crunch by the imposition of the additional tax.
In mid-July, she cobbled together a 10 per cent deposit on a $560,000 townhouse in Langley by borrowing from her parents and friends in China.
Twelve days later, the new levy was imposed.
The tax added $84,000 to the price of the property. If she backs out of the deal, she will lose her non-refundable deposit of $56,000.
"I can't go forward and also can't go back," she told the CBC at the time.
Now, in the notice of civil claim filed late Monday, Jing represents nearly all foreign buyers in the province who have been forced to pay the additional 15 per cent.

Up to 4,000 Metro Vancouver real estate deals were affected by the quick introduction of a 15% tax on real estate deals, and were not allowed to be 'grandfathered' to avoid the tax introduced before the deal formally closed. (Christer Waara/CBC)

Lawsuit alleges discrimination

The suit argues the provincial government has acted outside its jurisdiction, and that only the federal government has the exclusive power over "the conduct and regulation of foreign trade, aliens and the regulation of trade and commerce."
The lawsuit also claims the additional tax has the "sole effect of discriminating against [foreign buyers] because of their status as foreign nationals."
And that, her lawyer argues, violates more than two dozen international treaties that Canada has signed with nations ranging from Argentina and China, to Russia and the United States — the latter covered by NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement.

Lawyer Luciana Brasil, representing Jing and most foreign home buyers in B.C., says the province "used the wrong tool for the job." (Colin Fode/ CBC)

"The problem here is that the province has intruded into an area of federal jurisdiction" says Luciana Brasil, a partner with Branch MacMaster Barristers and Solicitors, the law firm that has filed the class-action suit on behalf of Jing.
"Because the province chose to use nationality as the basis for the tax, they're intruding into an area of federal jurisdiction. ... They're violating over 30 international treaties that guarantee equal treatment to these citizens and residents of other countries."
'We say they used the wrong tool'

Brasil says there's no denying there's a real estate problem in Metro Vancouver — it's just that the province made a mistake when it imposed the additional 15 per cent tax on foreign buyers.
"The case is not really about whether there's a housing crisis or whether or not there is a vacancy issue ... what we take issue with here is the tool that the province chose to use," says Brasil.
"We say they used the wrong tool for the job. It's like trying to use a screwdriver to put a nail on the wall. It just doesn't work."

"It's like trying to use a screwdriver to put a nail on the wall. It just doesn't work." - Lawyer Luciana Brasil, on the provincial government's foreign buyer tax

None of the allegations has been proven in court. The B.C. government has yet to file a response to the lawsuit.
In order to proceed, the claim will have to be certified as a class action by the B.C. Supreme Court, a process that could take months if not years.
In the meantime, it's expected the province will continue to collect the extra 15 per cent tax.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...-tax-1.3769751

[a very long weekend]

wow, two pretty interesting causes of action. if not dismissed outright, it could be a major test of just what the federal system looks like up there.

could you imagine the uproar if the taxing of real estate is judged by the courts to fall under federal jurisdiction? or if (foreigner) ownership of real property is considered to be an exclusively federal domain or a domain over which feds exert final control? if this gang succeeds with their lawsuit and the federal supreme court sides with them, it's pretty hard to imagine a situation in which the federal government doesn't immediately cede that power back to the provinces by legislative act, lest it create a court-initiated constitutional crisis.

maybe a charter challenge with data on foreign ownership showing that discrimination against chinese permanent residents might be more successful? but then that would require collecting a lot of data...

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...-tax-1.3769751

Why does a Chinese university student need a condo in Langley? Can't she get a dorm or an apartment? It is certainly proof once again that the tentacles of Chinese money aren't just confined to Vancouver and Richmond. In short, there is no area in the Lower Mainland they won't be ready to access foreign funds and outbid you.

She better be careful what she wishes for, if the tax is overturned it could unleash a nasty backlash or lead to an outright ban on foreign ownership (or both).

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Why does a Chinese university student need a condo in Langley? ......................

............ She better be careful what she wishes for, if the tax is overturned it could unleash a nasty backlash or lead to an outright ban on foreign ownership (or both).

Sorry to say this - Politically Incorrect - but OH HOW I WISH!!! .......

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Why does a Chinese university student need a condo in Langley? Can't she get a dorm or an apartment? It is certainly proof once again that the tentacles of Chinese money aren't just confined to Vancouver and Richmond. In short, there is no area in the Lower Mainland they won't be ready to access foreign funds and outbid you.

She better be careful what she wishes for, if the tax is overturned it could unleash a nasty backlash or lead to an outright ban on foreign ownership (or both).

Exactly. What if the feds decide to make the tax country wide?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

Exactly. What if the feds decide to make the tax country wide?

Now THERE'S an idea ........... (!!!)

[Vin]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Why does a Chinese university student need a condo in Langley? Can't she get a dorm or an apartment? It is certainly proof once again that the tentacles of Chinese money aren't just confined to Vancouver and Richmond. In short, there is no area in the Lower Mainland they won't be ready to access foreign funds and outbid you.

She better be careful what she wishes for, if the tax is overturned it could unleash a nasty backlash or lead to an outright ban on foreign ownership (or both).

$560,000 with a 10% downpayment on a townhouse in Langley is hardly "outbdding" anyone. Any local student can easily do that and not "challenged" by such a foreigner. Only difference is that a local student in his/her 20s is probably spending money elsewhere and wouldn't have the guts to invest on a property further away. Although a foreigner, this student is borrowing from people around her, and just like anyone else, would be paying mortgages with interest rates. The money she loans from her parents is never proven to be "corrupt money". She is also probably paying 3X the tuition fees that local students here are paying. On graduation, she may choose to live here and contribute to the economy here by working and paying taxes. What more do you expect for a potentially legit immigrant who can contribute to your retire funds?

If this person were an American or, say, Italian, no one would be batting an eye.

Again the backlash here has a racist undertone.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Now THERE'S an idea ........... (!!!)

An idiotic one.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Vin

$560,000 with a 10% downpayment on a townhouse in Langley is hardly "outbdding" anyone. Any local student can easily do that and not "challenged" by such a foreigner. Only difference is that a local student in his/her 20s is probably spending money elsewhere and wouldn't have the guts to invest on a property further away. Although a foreigner, this student is borrowing from people around her, and just like anyone else, would be paying mortgages with interest rates. The money she loans from her parents is never proven to be "corrupt money". She is also probably paying 3X the tuition fees that local students here are paying. On graduation, she may choose to live here and contribute to the economy here by working and paying taxes. What more do you expect for a potentially legit immigrant who can contribute to your retire funds?

If this person were an American or, say, Italian, no one would be batting an eye.

Again the backlash here has a racist undertone.

WTF are you talking about? Where does a young person in school or just out come up with $56k cash and a $2300+/month mortgage payment, not including any taxes or strata fees.