Rapid Transit

[thistleclub]

From Transport Action Ontario:

Are We There Yet? The State of Transit Investment in the Geater Toronto & Hamilton Area (PDF)
Are We There Yet? Backgrounder (PDF)

[thistleclub]

Council LRT critics biding their time
(Hamilton Spectator, Andrew Dreschel, Aug 16 2016)

Aside from some heavy sniping on social media, Hamilton's LRT debate is in a phoney war phase.

While the planning and designing of the $1 billion provincially-funded project is chugging steadily along, council critics are biding their time, trying to decide what steps to take.

None of the big three — Donna Skelly, Terry Whitehead, Chad Collins — are willing at this stage to push the issue to a crisis by formally testing the political support among their less clear-cut colleagues.

In fact, it's an open question when — and if — that moment will come.

Take Skelly, for example. She's become an increasingly vocal critic of the project, which will see LRT on Main and King Streets from McMaster to the Queenston traffic circle, with a spur line on James to the West Harbour Go Station.

Skelly doesn't buy claims that light rail is a transformative project that will be catalyst for economic uplift and an environmentally-friendly means of getting ahead of the city's congestion curve.

She argues, among other things, that LRT is an "archaic technology" that will create upheaval in the core and do nothing to tackle the more pressing problem of congestion on the Toronto-to-Niagara highway.

Problem is, she hasn't decided what to do about it. Skelly says she hasn't ruled out pushing for a referendum. But she's not there yet.

"I need to have a little more time to gauge the feeling of people outside the downtown core."

Skelly figures her next steps may become clear in September when summer vacations are over and people are more engaged. Convinced that the majority of Hamiltonians are against the project, she's hoping they and reticent members of council find their voices.

"People have to weigh in on this. Councillors who are struggling with it have to start speaking up."


Read it in full here.

[SteelTown]

LRT proposal now includes east end underpass

Hamilton Spectator
By Matthew Van Dongen
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6849268-lrt-proposal-now-includes-east-end-underpass/

Project designers are now proposing to build a pricey King Street underpass to allow Hamilton's LRT line to travel under an east end industrial rail spur.

The city's original environmental assessment for light rail transit envisioned a negotiated agreement with Canadian Pacific Railway to allow LRT vehicles to drive overtop the industrial spur that crosses King Street near East Bend Avenue.

Those talks, however, have not yielded a workable agreement, said city LRT point person Paul Johnson. "We were looking at a variety of options, but at this point the latest proposal is to look at going under the rail spur," he said.

Johnson declined to discuss the specifics of the negotiations, but said both railway requirements and Metrolinx concerns about rapid, reliable LRT service timelines played into the decision to pitch a Plan B.

The Spectator has yet to receive comment from CPR officials.

The current, tentative proposal would see a LRT-only underpass at the spur. Car traffic would continue to drive over the rail spur at a controlled crossing, as it does today.

Johnson conceded digging under the tracks would be "a bigger cost" than simply negotiating a surface crossing, but added no firm cost estimate is yet available.

The news comes as the city continues negotiations with landowners over a preferred LRT maintenance facility site in the west end.

While early planning suggested the facility could be built on Wentworth Street North, the latest targeted site is 15 to 20 acres of industrial land owned by McMaster University and businessperson Albert Samee near Longwood Road and Aberdeen Avenue.

The newly envisioned spur line feeding the facility would cross the Longwood bridge and dramatically shorten the distance LRT cars would have to travel from the main line to the storage facility.

Ward Coun. Aidan Johnson said he feels "joyous" about the latest plan, which he suggested could mean provincial funding to rehabilitate the aging Longwood bridge.

"My understanding is within a few years from now that bridge would need serious work to maintain it as a safe structure," he said. "This has been a huge source of stress for me."

At the same time, the councillor said the new plan also ends neighbourhood fears that the maintenance facility would be built atop popular Kay Drage Park — one of about 30 sites along the route considered so far.

Basic details about both plans are expected to be made public in LRT information sessions starting Monday evening. Slide decks used for the meetings should be posted online at hamilton.ca Monday morning.

Despite the new bridge-fixing and underpass-building costs, Paul Johnson said project planners still believe the original $1 billion budget will suffice.

"If (Metrolinx planners) thought it would break the bank, they wouldn't be considering it," he said.

[eatboots]

Wow, that spur is basically useless in 2016 as there are no actual places along it that have anything delivered by train anymore. The city really should have it removed. Even the tracks along the bottom of the escarpment should be removed past where the GO train comes in. They could actually put in a new spur out by ED Smith farms that would be shorter and not go through the city and still have the same amount of customers on it ie. zero

[matt602]

Originally Posted by eatboots

Wow, that spur is basically useless in 2016 as there are no actual places along it that have anything delivered by train anymore. The city really should have it removed. Even the tracks along the bottom of the escarpment should be removed past where the GO train comes in. They could actually put in a new spur out by ED Smith farms that would be shorter and not go through the city and still have the same amount of customers on it ie. zero

Not at all true. The spur's main customer is National Steel car. A train comes through at least once a day to bring new train cars from the plant up to CP's Kinnear Yard. It's still a pretty important rail link for CP since the only other trackage that serves Hamilton's industrial sector doesn't link up with CP tracks.

The CP Hamilton sub which the GO trains use to enter Hunter Street GO are part of CP's most important link to the US. A lot of high priority, important trains run through Hamilton on the way to Welland and the US border.

[mattgrande]

Originally Posted by eatboots

Wow, that spur is basically useless in 2016 as there are no actual places along it that have anything delivered by train anymore. The city really should have it removed. Even the tracks along the bottom of the escarpment should be removed past where the GO train comes in. They could actually put in a new spur out by ED Smith farms that would be shorter and not go through the city and still have the same amount of customers on it ie. zero

Probably five or six trains come through that area per day... It's a pretty well-used stretch of track.

[king10]

No way those tracks are removed. As posters mentioned they are important pieces of CPs operations.

Also correct me if im wrong but the city cant just "remove" CP or CN rail tracks can they?

[MalcolmTucker]

Nope. Railroads have specific powers set by the federal government that can't be overruled by other levels of government.

[eatboots]

I realize this stretch is still used as I have seen trains on it, but it's a few trains a week, not a day and there are no actual customers on the spur, it's just a shortcut. Even National Steel Car is off the other line that runs parallel to Barton. Niagara Falls has had tracks removed so it is possible. Also I was suggesting moving the spur into a rural area so that it could hook up with the line to the U.S on the other side of Hamilton. The bottom of the escarpment line is just a track running through the city, trains do not stop anywhere except in the yard.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by eatboots

I realize this stretch is still used as I have seen trains on it, but it's a few trains a week, not a day and there are no actual customers on the spur, it's just a shortcut. Even National Steel Car is off the other line that runs parallel to Barton. Niagara Falls has had tracks removed so it is possible. Also I was suggesting moving the spur into a rural area so that it could hook up with the line to the U.S on the other side of Hamilton. The bottom of the escarpment line is just a track running through the city, trains do not stop anywhere except in the yard.

Shortcut to where? It's a spur into Hamilton's industrial area.

The CP line cuts under CN's tracks (the "parallel to Barton" line you mention?) west of Ottawa St. near Beach Rd. Both this CP line and the CN main line connect with east-west tracks that are just south of Burlington St., with multiple spurs up into the industrial areas north, including those leading into National Steel Car.

I'm not sure how you figure the main east-west CP corridor through the lower city can be re-routed into rural areas. This is CP's main line to the Niagara Peninsula and the U.S.; it runs south from the Galt Sub through Halton and Waterdown and does not split anywhere except to the yard off Aberdeen Ave. and this north spur near Gage into Hamilton's north end. To re-route it would mean building a new line west and south around Hamilton (above the escarpment), an enormous expense. Whether the trains stop elsewhere in Hamilton or not is irrelevant -- the issue is this being CP's main line and the necessity of the Gage spur to industrial customers north of Burlington St.

[NortheastWind]

Originally Posted by eatboots

I realize this stretch is still used as I have seen trains on it, but it's a few trains a week, not a day and there are no actual customers on the spur, it's just a shortcut. Even National Steel Car is off the other line that runs parallel to Barton. Niagara Falls has had tracks removed so it is possible. Also I was suggesting moving the spur into a rural area so that it could hook up with the line to the U.S on the other side of Hamilton. The bottom of the escarpment line is just a track running through the city, trains do not stop anywhere except in the yard.

My friend's house backs onto the tracks and I own a property across from him. It's a few trains a day.

[eatboots]

Rail lines are a mess in Hamilton! I was under the impression that CN owned all the rails between Toronto to Burlington and then CP from Hamilton to Niagara which is why Aldershot has been the endpoint for so long and all day GO has not happened yet. Also I saw a train last night by Gage but it was just a few engines and that is all I've ever seen go through there. Obviously CP uses that line, but it definitely feels pretty archaic to have a slow moving train running through town like that.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by eatboots

Rail lines are a mess in Hamilton! I was under the impression that CN owned all the rails between Toronto to Burlington and then CP from Hamilton to Niagara which is why Aldershot has been the endpoint for so long and all day GO has not happened yet. Also I saw a train last night by Gage but it was just a few engines and that is all I've ever seen go through there. Obviously CP uses that line, but it definitely feels pretty archaic to have a slow moving train running through town like that.

The railways can basically do whatever they want without city approval. The only way they would shut down that right of way is if they had an alternative and even then they would be very hesitant. They already shut down the Ferguson line at the request of the city.

[Bubba9000]

Levels of jurisdiction in Canada, ranked lowest to highest:
municipal
provincial
federal
railroads

Content removed

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

LRT proposal now includes east end underpass

Hamilton Spectator
By Matthew Van Dongen
http://www.thespec.com/news-story/6849268-lrt-proposal-now-includes-east-end-underpass/

Project designers are now proposing to build a pricey King Street underpass to allow Hamilton's LRT line to travel under an east end industrial rail spur.

The city's original environmental assessment for light rail transit envisioned a negotiated agreement with Canadian Pacific Railway to allow LRT vehicles to drive overtop the industrial spur that crosses King Street near East Bend Avenue.

Those talks, however, have not yielded a workable agreement, said city LRT point person Paul Johnson. "We were looking at a variety of options, but at this point the latest proposal is to look at going under the rail spur," he said.

Johnson declined to discuss the specifics of the negotiations, but said both railway requirements and Metrolinx concerns about rapid, reliable LRT service timelines played into the decision to pitch a Plan B.

The Spectator has yet to receive comment from CPR officials.

The current, tentative proposal would see a LRT-only underpass at the spur. Car traffic would continue to drive over the rail spur at a controlled crossing, as it does today.

Johnson conceded digging under the tracks would be "a bigger cost" than simply negotiating a surface crossing, but added no firm cost estimate is yet available.

The news comes as the city continues negotiations with landowners over a preferred LRT maintenance facility site in the west end.

While early planning suggested the facility could be built on Wentworth Street North, the latest targeted site is 15 to 20 acres of industrial land owned by McMaster University and businessperson Albert Samee near Longwood Road and Aberdeen Avenue.

The newly envisioned spur line feeding the facility would cross the Longwood bridge and dramatically shorten the distance LRT cars would have to travel from the main line to the storage facility.

Ward Coun. Aidan Johnson said he feels "joyous" about the latest plan, which he suggested could mean provincial funding to rehabilitate the aging Longwood bridge.

"My understanding is within a few years from now that bridge would need serious work to maintain it as a safe structure," he said. "This has been a huge source of stress for me."

At the same time, the councillor said the new plan also ends neighbourhood fears that the maintenance facility would be built atop popular Kay Drage Park — one of about 30 sites along the route considered so far.

Basic details about both plans are expected to be made public in LRT information sessions starting Monday evening. Slide decks used for the meetings should be posted online at hamilton.ca Monday morning.

Despite the new bridge-fixing and underpass-building costs, Paul Johnson said project planners still believe the original $1 billion budget will suffice.

"If (Metrolinx planners) thought it would break the bank, they wouldn't be considering it," he said.

If you need an underpass here, let's go the extra mile and make the LRT run underground from Gage to Dundurn, much like the central section of the Crosstown Eglinton LRT in Toronto. Sure it is much more expensive, but it would be well worth the extra money as it would resolve the CP right of way issue, as well as eliminating potential restricted lane issue for King Street length of the route. Metrolinx can use the same boring machines they are using for Crosstown , which would save a large portion of the extra cost.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

If you need an underpass here, let's go the extra mile and make the LRT run underground from Gage to Dundurn, much like the central section of the Crosstown Eglinton LRT in Toronto. Sure it is much more expensive, but it would be well worth the extra money as it would resolve the CP right of way issue, as well as eliminating potential restricted lane issue for King Street length of the route. Metrolinx can use the same boring machines they are using for Crosstown , which would save a large portion of the extra cost.

No, the machines are not a large portion of the cost of going underground.

[king10]

Do you know how much money that would cost?

[NortheastWind]

Originally Posted by king10

Do you know how much money that would cost?

Enough money that Donna Skelly would say no to LRT (SARC).

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by king10

Do you know how much money that would cost?

Well, the Crosstown Eglinton has a cost of $5.3 billion for a 19km route with 25 stops, 10km of which is underground. This works out to an average cost of $280/km

The Hamilton LRT is 11km long and is costed at $1b for a surface-only route.
If the portion from Gage to Dundurn was placed underground, as is being done in Toronto, that would put 6km of the 11km route underground, making the surface:underground about the same for the two projects. Using the cost of Crosstown as a frame of reference, we can estimate the cost of a partially underground route similar to the LRT being built in Toronto to cost about $3 billion.