Chinese Investors Driving Up Metro Housing Prices

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Vin

Are you implying that 99% of money from foreign investors are dirty money then? If you are convinced, then show us some proof. What about money earned by hardworking immigrants and foreigners, who, say own factories that make the very computer that you are using at the moment, or that affordable microwave that your mom just used to warm up your milk this morning? Are you saying foreigners who make their millions doing honest hard work don't exist? Painting these Chinese investors as all corrupt officials is, again, smells of racism.

I am sure the number isn't 99% and I was willing to agree until you mentioned the "factories." Those the same factories that rely off individuals working in deplorable conditions and barely making enough money to survive? One individual pursuing an MA in Labour Studies is a 2nd gen Chinese-Canadian, and she was open about the inhumane practices at her uncles factory. Employees not getting paid, working 16 hrs a day, working injured etc...China is beginning to see improvements in the treatment of workers, but that's largely in part to the increasing flight of manufacturing zones that are relocating to other impoverished countries.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Jebby

I'm a Canadian citizen, so what if I'm currently living abroad?


Let me be more clear:

Any millionaire who is not inadmissible according to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (people engaged in human rights violations, organized crime, health reasons, security risks, etc) should be allowed to move to Canada and bring their money with them.

If that be the case, do you think it will benefit and stimulate the Canadian economy, providing growth and employment (presumably 'trickle-down'), or further bloat the $$housing market? The effect could be good, or not good at all.

[whatnext]

Originally Posted by Vin

Are you implying that 99% of money from foreign investors are dirty money then? If you are convinced, then show us some proof. What about money earned by hardworking immigrants and foreigners, who, say own factories that make the very computer that you are using at the moment, or that affordable microwave that your mom just used to warm up your milk this morning? Are you saying foreigners who make their millions doing honest hard work don't exist? Painting these Chinese investors as all corrupt officials is, again, smells of racism.

No, but Jebby's intimation as that anyone with a suitcase full of cash should be welcome.

Anybody willing to work in Canada's economy should be welcome provided they pass the checks. However, those of working age arriving with no intention to work or pay taxes here should not be welcomed. I posted in another thread that nobody has been able to point out a brilliant Canadian business success story from all those investor immigrants that bought their way into Canada. No doubt that is why 10 years after arriving refugee claimants pay higher income taxes than said investor immigrants.

[sacrifice333]

Originally Posted by Jebby

We should be welcoming every single millionaire that wants to move to Canada and bring their money with them.

It's a great idea in theory... especially when "move to" assumes that "they" move, set up businesses, provide jobs, integrate into society, etc..

When "move to" actually plays out to avoiding tax in Canada, simply owning a home here, possibly sending kids to public schools, etc., the taste left can be less sweet.

That being said, in many respects Canada doesn't make it easy. So many professionals & trades who have achieved accreditation abroad, whether in accounting, plumbing, medicine, etc., are significantly under-employed due to having to basically re-do ALL or MOST of their schooling here in Canada to re-attain their accreditation. And we wonder why we have shortages of doctors and nurses.

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by Jebby

We should be welcoming every single millionaire that wants to move to Canada and bring their money with them.

lol, why not invite them to Mexico so you can reap those rewards?

[djmk]

I think it's ridiculous that tax-residents of Canada are getting hit with this tax. Why punish those on work or student visa?

[Vin]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

I am sure the number isn't 99% and I was willing to agree until you mentioned the "factories." Those the same factories that rely off individuals working in deplorable conditions and barely making enough money to survive? One individual pursuing an MA in Labour Studies is a 2nd gen Chinese-Canadian, and she was open about the inhumane practices at her uncles factory. Employees not getting paid, working 16 hrs a day, working injured etc...China is beginning to see improvements in the treatment of workers, but that's largely in part to the increasing flight of manufacturing zones that are relocating to other impoverished countries.

I wonder how you can live if you ditch those "Made in China" products that you have around you. Again your sweeping statements about anything regarding foreign immigrants from China is just so......amazing. They have graduated from corrupt officials to owners of sweatshops producing iphones and fridges, which I'm sure you purchase and utilize.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

lol, why not invite them to Mexico so you can reap those rewards?

Well, the context of this thread is Canada, so my comment made perfect sense.

Mexico already offers permanent residence for investors, by the way.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by sacrifice333

It's a great idea in theory... especially when "move to" assumes that "they" move, set up businesses, provide jobs, integrate into society, etc..

Well, it's a requirement to invest in a Canadian business in order to get a PR permit as an investor....

Originally Posted by sacrifice333

When "move to" actually plays out to avoiding tax in Canada, simply owning a home here, possibly sending kids to public schools, etc., the taste left can be less sweet.

I'm not sure how you can simply own a home in Canada while not living there and send your children to public school at the same time.

Anyway, I commend any effort anyone makes to avoid paying taxes anywhere in the world. I certainly use every tool at my disposal to avoid taxes to the maximum degree.

Originally Posted by sacrifice333

That being said, in many respects Canada doesn't make it easy. So many professionals & trades who have achieved accreditation abroad, whether in accounting, plumbing, medicine, etc., are significantly under-employed due to having to basically re-do ALL or MOST of their schooling here in Canada to re-attain their accreditation. And we wonder why we have shortages of doctors and nurses.

Yes, it is quite ridiculous. Growing up our Philippino nanny was a nurse and she had to redo basically her entire degree in Canada before she could practice again. We were really happy for her when she finally got her Canadian degree but it was a pain in the ass for her to have to do.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Well, it's a requirement to invest in a Canadian business in order to get a PR permit as an investor....

And yet studies show that refugees end up pay considerably more into the system during their lifetimes...

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

And yet studies show that refugees end up pay considerably more into the system during their lifetimes...

Do you have a link to these studies? That's a very interesting thing to look at. What exactly do the studies look at to come up with that claim?

The investment for residence program isn't perfect, there's much to improve but it's something that should be expanded.


Edit: I googled what you were referring to and it appears it just takes into account income taxes, not the full impact of the investment people make to get permanent residence. The purchase of a home, home improvements, cars, etc was not included in their investment requirements. Just taking into account the property taxes they pay yearly on their homes, they contribute more in taxes than any refugee does (a refugee is not likely to be able to afford a home in Metro Vancouver within 5 years of coming to Canada)

For example, an average home in Richmond would pay about $4700 in property taxes per year, while a refugee making $30,000 a year would pay at most $3,790 in income taxes without any deductions or tax credits.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Do you have a link to these studies?

Refugees pay more income tax than millionaire investor immigrants
Only 39% of investor immigrants paid any income tax 5 years after arriving

CBC News Posted: Mar 06, 2015 3:24 PM ET Last Updated: Mar 08, 2015 1:58 PM ET

Refugees who have come to Canada over the past 30 years have paid more income tax in this country than immigrant investors admitted under the now defunct immigrant investor program, critics say.

Ian Young, a South China Morning Post journalist based in Vancouver, crunched the numbers with data from Citizenship and Immigration Canada.

Only a small proportion of the immigrant investors who have come to Canada under the program since 1980 end up staying here, Young said, again relying on numbers from the federal government.

"After five years, only 39 per cent of investor immigrants declared any income. Not only that, those who did, their average incomes were very low," he said in an interview with CBC Radio's The Current on Friday.

They may have been millionaires, but they were earning very little money here in Canada. Immigrant investors declared about $18,000 to $25,000 of income annually, he said.

"Why? Either because they were living off existing wealth, or they weren’t declaring their [global] incomes," Young said.

By contrast, refugees to Canada start out earning about $17,500 a year, and by the end of their first 10 years, 66 per cent of them are declaring an earned income.

Their annual earnings eventually reach a level closer to economic immigrants to Canada, in the $30,000 range, he said.

[...]

http://www.cbc.ca/news/business/refugees...illionaire-investor-immigrants-1.2984982

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Jebby

I'm a Canadian citizen, so what if I'm currently living abroad?


Let me be more clear:

Any millionaire who is not inadmissible according to the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act (people engaged in human rights violations, organized crime, health reasons, security risks, etc) should be allowed to move to Canada and bring their money with them.

Presumably you are not born in Canada and came here with a boat load of cash (you know nanny, getting citizenship and moving back to Mexico etc.).

My question is what have you contributed to Canada. What has your family brought to Canada? Has Canada benefited? Or would it have benefited more by bringing in a hardworking educated balanced Mexican family that would take up residence, work and produce offspring that would go to school, stay here, and repeat the cycle as Canadians.

If the answer is absolutely nothing then I would love to hear the logic behind bringing in more people like your self who stay to use the services and obtain citizenship and then leave again.

[whatnext]

Looks like the tax has pissed off some Chinese investors, so it is working as intended! Seriously, does this guy really expect any sympathy when he's snapped up at least four properties and encouraged multiple other foreign buyers?

Three years ago, Jack Li signed to buy a modest one-bedroom condo in Richmond for about $200,000, a chance to gain a relatively cheap foothold in British Columbia’s Lower Mainland.

Then he waited as his new home slowly emerged from the ground. But far more exciting than construction progress was the rapid rise in the value of his purchase as real estate prices took flight. Mr. Li, a Beijing oil and gas worker who turned to real estate when energy prices crashed, decided to buy more.

In January, he bought into another condo development in Yaletown. In July, he signed for a third, in Burnaby. His purchases are part of the rush of foreign money that has sparked a backlash in British Columbia, where Vancouver home prices were up 32.6 per cent year-over-year in July....

...The change came only weeks before he expected to take possession of his Burnaby condo, which he expects to keep since it’s a relatively small investment.

But when it comes to the other two more expensive properties, which won’t be ready for another three or four years, he’s already decided what to do. If the 15-per-cent penalty stays, he won’t.

“I’m going to flip them,” he says. “I’m not going to pay that tax,” which becomes due when a home purchase is registered, even for home sales agreed to before the tax was introduced. “If the government had said 5 per cent or even 8 per cent, that’s reasonable. But 15 per cent, that’s a lot. That’s a very heavy tax.”...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/worl...ash-from-chinese-buyers/article31404771/

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Looks like the tax has pissed off some Chinese investors, so it is working as intended! Seriously, does this guy really expect any sympathy when he's snapped up at least four properties and encouraged multiple other foreign buyers?

Three years ago, Jack Li signed to buy a modest one-bedroom condo in Richmond for about $200,000, a chance to gain a relatively cheap foothold in British Columbia’s Lower Mainland.

Then he waited as his new home slowly emerged from the ground. But far more exciting than construction progress was the rapid rise in the value of his purchase as real estate prices took flight. Mr. Li, a Beijing oil and gas worker who turned to real estate when energy prices crashed, decided to buy more.

In January, he bought into another condo development in Yaletown. In July, he signed for a third, in Burnaby. His purchases are part of the rush of foreign money that has sparked a backlash in British Columbia, where Vancouver home prices were up 32.6 per cent year-over-year in July....

...The change came only weeks before he expected to take possession of his Burnaby condo, which he expects to keep since it’s a relatively small investment.

But when it comes to the other two more expensive properties, which won’t be ready for another three or four years, he’s already decided what to do. If the 15-per-cent penalty stays, he won’t.

“I’m going to flip them,” he says. “I’m not going to pay that tax,” which becomes due when a home purchase is registered, even for home sales agreed to before the tax was introduced. “If the government had said 5 per cent or even 8 per cent, that’s reasonable. But 15 per cent, that’s a lot. That’s a very heavy tax.”...
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/worl...ash-from-chinese-buyers/article31404771/

The joke is on him. The tax will likely rise to 20% later this year and there are, more measures coming that will impact him from all levels of government. If I would be him I would unload all his contracts and leave back to China.

[Alex Mackinnon]

He's going to end up paying income tax on any gains from the presale flip.

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Presumably you are not born in Canada and came here with a boat load of cash (you know nanny, getting citizenship and moving back to Mexico etc.).

My question is what have you contributed to Canada. What has your family brought to Canada? Has Canada benefited? Or would it have benefited more by bringing in a hardworking educated balanced Mexican family that would take up residence, work and produce offspring that would go to school, stay here, and repeat the cycle as Canadians.

If the answer is absolutely nothing then I would love to hear the logic behind bringing in more people like your self who stay to use the services and obtain citizenship and then leave again.

Perfect summary of someone who only cares about the %1. It makes a mockery of Canada by touting that he will do whatever he can to not pay our taxes that support our stable society. Why don't you do something to help your own country instead of hoarding your tax dollars. I'm not proud to have people who behave like that come to my country.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

Perfect summary of someone who only cares about the %1. It makes a mockery of Canada by touting that he will do whatever he can to not pay our taxes that support our stable society. Why don't you do something to help your own country instead of hoarding your tax dollars. I'm not proud to have people who behave like that come to my country.

Better clarify whether it's Jebby or cornholio you're calling an out-of-touch elitist.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by retro_orange

Perfect summary of someone who only cares about the %1.

I could care less about the top 1%. They will do fine regardless of what happens to the rest of the country.

I care most about the working and middle class. I think that they're the ones that are always stiffed.

Overcrowded under-performing public school? The working and middle classes suffer.
Doctor and nurse shortage? Long wait lines? The working and middle classes suffer.
Regulations increase cost of business? The working and middle classes suffer.

Originally Posted by retro_orange

It makes a mockery of Canada by touting that he will do whatever he can to not pay our taxes that support our stable society. Why don't you do something to help your own country instead of hoarding your tax dollars.

How is it making a mockery of Canada to use all the tools at my disposal within the tax code to legally reduce my tax bill as much as possible?

What's wrong with "hoarding" my hard earned money? How am I not helping my country by investing my money and creating wealth and jobs instead of allowing the government to squander it? How am I not helping my country by donating to charity instead of giving the money to the state?

Originally Posted by retro_orange

I'm not proud to have people who behave like that come to my country.

Oh right, your country.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Presumably you are not born in Canada and came here with a boat load of cash (you know nanny, getting citizenship and moving back to Mexico etc.)..

No, I was not born in Canada and yes my parents got permanent residence through the investor program. I guess that makes us evil, then. We probably only brought laundered dirty drug money with us, because we're foreigners.

Originally Posted by cornholio

My question is what have you contributed to Canada. What has your family brought to Canada? Has Canada benefited? .

Well, my dad's first business in Canada was a salmon farm that employed 40-odd people directly. I guess that didn't benefit Canada, though. He sold that and paid quite a bit in taxes.

Then he had a tech sector company that employed almost 100 people at it's peak. I guess that didn't benefit Canada, either. When he sold that he also paid quite a bit in taxes, which seems to be the measure here of how much you contribute to Canada.

The various mining companies he has created based in Vancouver and easily directly employed over 1000 people over the years haven't been of any benefit, either.

The thousands of hours and hundreds of thousands of dollars we've donated to local charities over the years obviously never benefited anyone, right? The scholarships we've supported never benefited anyone in need either, right?

Originally Posted by cornholio

Or would it have benefited more by bringing in a hardworking educated balanced Mexican family that would take up residence, work and produce offspring that would go to school, stay here, and repeat the cycle as Canadians..

Oh, so we're uneducated and not hardworking?

I mean, my grandpa had a doctorate from Stanford, my dad has a law degree and an MBA, my mom has her undergrad, I have a master's degree, my brother is getting his PhD in Economics...but totally uneducated family we are.

And none of us ever worked hard for anything in life. I mean, if you say so it must be true...

Originally Posted by cornholio

If the answer is absolutely nothing then I would love to hear the logic behind bringing in more people like your self who stay to use the services and obtain citizenship and then leave again.

Ok, so another accusation. We came to Canada to use the serviced, got citizenship, and then just left.

Let's start with the last part. Living continuously in Canada for 15 years = getting citizenship and then leaving? We never came to Canada for citizenship with the intention of leaving, but keep assuming you know my family.

Coming to use the services? Let's see:

Public school? Nope, my brother and I did our entire schooling at private schools.
Healthcare? We always had a US health insurance plan, which is what we used when my dad had cancer and my mom needed her gallbladder removed.

We payed way more into the system than we took out. We were paying over $15,000 in property taxes alone when we left Vancouver. We still pay property taxes on our remaining properties, in addition to income taxes on rent. But yeah, we just came for the services and citizenship...