Expo Line - Surrey Langley Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

• The government has a track record of providing only the minimum funds needed. If short turning some trains means they can buy fewer trainsets at the outset, then that seems likely to happen. It's easier to do this at the outset because Langley residents will be happy to get any Skytrain service, even if it's only at relatively lower frequency.

Point well taken. Although most of the misers are found in the provincial level - at the federal level, even the Conservatives are willing to fund transit once in a while, if only for photo ops.

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

• Even if enough trainsets are bought initially, ridership will grow and Translink will be forced to juggle its resources to meet demand.

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The trick is to juggle the length of time that Langley riders have to wait for the next train against the number of trains that people at Commercial/Broadway have to pass up because they're jammed full.

Maybe, maybe not. I've had to pass up more than a few "jammed full" Canada Line trains at rush hour, and yet the line is neither at capacity, nor getting any new trains in the near future. There is a distinct lack of short-turned trains at Bridgeport.

Likewise, I don't think there's enough Surrey/Langley residents headed into Vancouver proper (more than now, anyway) to really impact the existing bottleneck at Commercial.

Also keep in mind that the Broadway extension will be opening at around the same time, which could also relieve some of the pressure there.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Also keep in mind that the Broadway extension will be opening at around the same time, which could also relieve some of the pressure there.

I sure hope so. It would be the height of irresponsibility to add any further extensions on any of the Skytrain lines without first solving the gap in the network between Broadway/Commercial on the Expo line and Broadway on the Canada Line. Doing the Evergreen extension first was bad enough.

I have nothing against the Evergreen line and I think it's overdue. But it's not going to do a lot of good if commuters from the Coquitlam area can't squeeze onto an Expo line train.

I guess if things get bad enough people might just start reverse commuting on the Millenium line in order to catch the West Coast Express to get downtown. But it has a pretty hard limit on capacity too.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

I sure hope so. It would be the height of irresponsibility to add any further extensions on any of the Skytrain lines without first solving the gap in the network between Broadway/Commercial on the Expo line and Broadway on the Canada Line. Doing the Evergreen extension first was bad enough.

I have nothing against the Evergreen line and I think it's overdue. But it's not going to do a lot of good if commuters from the Coquitlam area can't squeeze onto an Expo line train.

I agree entirely. And with the Broadway extension, they also have the option to keep going until Cambie and transferring to the Canada Line. Which is also overcrowded, but still...

The ultimate solution, of course, is to decentralize the metro.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I agree entirely. And with the Broadway extension, they also have the option to keep going until Cambie and transferring to the Canada Line. Which is also overcrowded, but still...

The ultimate solution, of course, is to decentralize the metro.

How is that a solution? Everyone car commuting in everyone else's way, while agglomeration economies are allowed to decay?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I agree entirely. And with the Broadway extension, they also have the option to keep going until Cambie and transferring to the Canada Line. Which is also overcrowded, but still...

The ultimate solution, of course, is to decentralize the metro.

Could you please explain what you mean by "decentralize the metro," providing one or two pertinent examples (even if hypothetical)? Thanks

[GMasterAres]

I could be wrong but I'd imagine he is referencing the fact that a lot of our transit is built to get people to and from downtown Vancouver.

You see a lot of that discussion in the last 2 or 3 pages alone where people can't just shake away the concept that downtown Vancouver is the destination of the vast majority of people. Heck many Mayors North of Fraser state this constantly. But the truth is it isn't, and stats show this to be far more probably a myth. If you add up the numbers on the chart a few pages back, 10% of commuters end up somewhere in Vancouver. 90% go to other cities with 62% total traveling to Surrey, Langley City, or Abbotsford so basically the nearest neighboring cities.

So an Expo extension to Langley would more likely result in boosting Surrey Central as a new regional "downtown" hub along with the likes of Downtown Vancouver and Metrotown since 36% of commuters in Langley end up in Surrey.

I mean the majority of bus service in South Surrey and South Delta for example is aimed at getting people to Bridgeport instead of Surrey Central as an example of Vancouver centric transit design in the region.

If he means something else though then my mistake.

I definitely agree though that the Broadway extension needs to be done at the same time if not sooner or else the system will be chaos around Commercial at least. As for SkyTrain timings, I firstly love the optimistic outlook that saner heads will prevail and we'll actually _GET_ SkyTrain along Fraser Highway rather than street LRT, but secondly will bow out since I don't know nearly enough about all the technicalities to comment.

All the above said though I do feel the Langley <> Vancouver ridership on SkyTrain if it is extended would go up beyond the numbers I stated above simply because of, as was mentioned in previous pages, more affordable housing being opened up to people working along SkyTrain lines. If you can suddenly jump on SkyTrain at Willowbrook and ride straight to Vancouver, you'll likely have a chunk of people renting today moving out to the burbs to buy. We had a measurable number of people buy in our building at Surrey Central who work along SkyTrain simply because they could afford to buy in Surrey Central and nowhere else. A Langley line opens up Fleetwood, Clayton, and a large swatch of Langley District and City where thousands of townhouses and row houses are being built each year now.

[Alex Mackinnon]

I think the Evergreen ridership will likely be a good indicator of what kind of ridership acceptance we should be seeing in the distant suburbs.

Coquitlam will be the most distant suburb that has received rapid transit thus far. At 24km from the Downtown, it's about as distant as Fleetwood and Newton are. Double the distance that Richmond is from Downtown.

If the ridership predictions prove to be as conservative as the Canada Line was, then we may see a lot more impetus for Skytrain extensions towards Langley.

[Xrayal]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I've had to pass up more than a few "jammed full" Canada Line trains at rush hour, and yet the line is neither at capacity, nor getting any new trains in the near future.

We ordered 22 more canada line cars along with 28 more skytrain cars not even two months ago.
Link

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by jhausner

I could be wrong but I'd imagine he is referencing the fact that a lot of our transit is built to get people to and from downtown Vancouver.


So an Expo extension to Langley would more likely result in boosting Surrey Central as a new regional "downtown" hub along with the likes of Downtown Vancouver and Metrotown since 36% of commuters in Langley end up in Surrey.

I mean the majority of bus service in South Surrey and South Delta for example is aimed at getting people to Bridgeport instead of Surrey Central as an example of Vancouver centric transit design in the region.

I'm glad more people are realizing this. Growing up in N Delta, if I wanted to take transit to Richmond the fastest way was to take a bus to the Skytrain, go to downtown Van and then take a bus from there to Richmond - there was no bus between Surrey / Delta and Richmond. It took 2-3 hours for a one way trip. That has only changed in the more recent past.

Extending Skytrain down Fraser Hwy will shift people from the 502 / 503 buses (can't rem which one runs similar to a B-Line route). The idea of people suffering by having to wait however many minutes for the train is laughable. Have you ever taken a bus in Surrey / Langley? There's a grand total of 1 B-Line and 2 FTN routes in the entire area - most routes are still every 30 minutes. Compared to that having a train that's less than every 10 minutes is a joy.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Extending Skytrain down Fraser Hwy will shift people from the 502 / 503 buses (can't rem which one runs similar to a B-Line route). The idea of people suffering by having to wait however many minutes for the train is laughable. Have you ever taken a bus in Surrey / Langley? There's a grand total of 1 B-Line and 2 FTN routes in the entire area - most routes are still every 30 minutes. Compared to that having a train that's less than every 10 minutes is a joy.

1 B-Line and 5 FTNs within the City of Surrey, which is still much much better than the 1 B-Line and 2 FTNs all the way from Port Moody to Maple Ridge. Just to show how bad transit service outside of the core area...

Hopefully transit would be much better in the NES area when Evergreen Line comes, although seems like the region would be down to 1 FTN route, 3 FTN "segments" (through combined service), and 2 routes that barely miss the FTN status after the integration..

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by nname

1 B-Line and 5 FTNs within the City of Surrey, which is still much much better than the 1 B-Line and 2 FTNs all the way from Port Moody to Maple Ridge. Just to show how bad transit service outside of the core area...

Hopefully transit would be much better in the NES area when Evergreen Line comes, although seems like the region would be down to 1 FTN route, 3 FTN "segments" (through combined service), and 2 routes that barely miss the FTN status after the integration..

I wasn't including South Surrey or South Delta in the area as they're fairly self contained pockets away from where we've been discussing. With the exception of Langley, I wasn't talking about south of Hwy 10.

Outside of CoV, bus service is pretty poor. Then people don't ride it because it's poor, so service isn't improved. Oh what a lovely catch-22.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by jhausner

I could be wrong but I'd imagine he is referencing the fact that a lot of our transit is built to get people to and from downtown Vancouver.

You see a lot of that discussion in the last 2 or 3 pages alone where people can't just shake away the concept that downtown Vancouver is the destination of the vast majority of people. Heck many Mayors North of Fraser state this constantly. But the truth is it isn't, and stats show this to be far more probably a myth. If you add up the numbers on the chart a few pages back, 10% of commuters end up somewhere in Vancouver. 90% go to other cities with 62% total traveling to Surrey, Langley City, or Abbotsford so basically the nearest neighboring cities.

So an Expo extension to Langley would more likely result in boosting Surrey Central as a new regional "downtown" hub along with the likes of Downtown Vancouver and Metrotown since 36% of commuters in Langley end up in Surrey.

Thanks, that's exactly what I was aiming for. Need to stop writing vague comments at 2 in the morning...

I'm not saying "live where you work" - which is impractical and/or unaffordable for most people right now - but it doesn't make sense to be shuffling thousands of people from homes in one side of Metro Vancouver to offices in the opposite side. Remember, downtown is in a corner of Vancouver, not the centre like most other cities. Smaller, additional CBDs in Burnaby and Surrey could reduce congestion and travel time - and the changing commutes would shift TransLink from a spoke-and-hub network into a proper grid connecting everything to everything else, not just downtown.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I wasn't including South Surrey or South Delta in the area as they're fairly self contained pockets away from where we've been discussing. With the exception of Langley, I wasn't talking about south of Hwy 10.

Outside of CoV, bus service is pretty poor. Then people don't ride it because it's poor, so service isn't improved. Oh what a lovely catch-22.

People don't ride it because it makes you look poor. If you are outside the Vancouver proper and/or a 10+ min walk from a skytrain stn, you probably need a vehicle, especially if you are a male in your 20's and 30's. Else wise, your love and social life will suffer and you may be denied job opportunities. When you think of transit riders in Surrey. You usually think of "low income" thugs, teens, new immigrants, or seniors.

The car will reign supreme in Surrey until we see a full shift in culture.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Thanks, that's exactly what I was aiming for. Need to stop writing vague comments at 2 in the morning...

I'm not saying "live where you work" - which is impractical and/or unaffordable for most people right now - but it doesn't make sense to be shuffling thousands of people from homes in one side of Metro Vancouver to offices in the opposite side. Remember, downtown is in a corner of Vancouver, not the centre like most other cities. Smaller, additional CBDs in Burnaby and Surrey could reduce congestion and travel time - and the changing commutes would shift TransLink from a spoke-and-hub network into a proper grid connecting everything to everything else, not just downtown.

I try to not write vague comments at 11 at night - if I'm still in front of a screen at 2 in the morning...

The thing is that many people are already not travelling to downtown Van, no matter what part of the metro they're living in. Outside of CoV Translink still has the old spoke-and-hub network it inherited from BC Transit and they haven't done a whole lot to change it into a grid. Go figure car ownership is so high outside of CoV.

Originally Posted by logicbomb

The car will reign supreme in Surrey until we see a full shift in culture.

Sadly true.

[jollyburger]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I agree entirely. And with the Broadway extension, they also have the option to keep going until Cambie and transferring to the Canada Line. Which is also overcrowded, but still...

The ultimate solution, of course, is to decentralize the metro.

And they'll run Evergreen Line cars for a bit on the Expo/Millennium lines which might help

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Xrayal

We ordered 22 more canada line cars along with 28 more skytrain cars not even two months ago.
Link

And this is new orders in addition to the 28 MkIII cars (7 trains) that have been arriving since the spring, to be put in service later this year.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by jollyburger

And they'll run Evergreen Line cars for a bit on the Expo/Millennium lines which might help

there is not going to be an "Evergreen Line" nor "Evergreen cars"

The existing Millennium line from VCC to Lougheed will continue eastward using the "Millennium extension" to Douglas College/Lafarge Lake.

The route from VCC to Douglas will be considered "the Millennium line"

The route from Waterfront to King George will become exclusively "the Expo line"


https://www.reddit.com/r/vancouver/comments/4hasrz/evergreen_extension_of_the_millennium_line/

These lines will still be using the MkI, MkII and new MkIII trains, with the new MkIII trains intended for the Waterfront - King George route

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

there is not going to be an "Evergreen Line" nor "Evergreen cars"

The existing Millennium line from VCC to Lougheed will continue eastward using the "Millennium extension" to Douglas College/Lafarge Lake.

The route from VCC to Douglas will be considered "the Millennium line"

The route from Waterfront to King George will become exclusively "the Expo line"



These lines will still be using the MkI, MkII and new MkIII trains, with the new MkIII trains intended for the Waterfront - King George route

This configuration makes sense for students stopping to go to SFU. Otherwise, Expo would terminate at Lougheed. It will be interesting to see the transit numbers once it opens up.

BTW... Braid station is after Sapperton

[ClaytonA]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I wasn't including South Surrey or South Delta in the area as they're fairly self contained pockets away from where we've been discussing. With the exception of Langley, I wasn't talking about south of Hwy 10.

Outside of CoV, bus service is pretty poor. Then people don't ride it because it's poor, so service isn't improved. Oh what a lovely catch-22.

Keep in mind that feedback loop works in reverse too (positively).

[ClaytonA]

... South of Fraser Light Rapid Transit ($58M)
 Planning, design, and related activities to prepare for procurement.
New bus exchanges at Newton and Guildford to provide near-term improvements and prepare for future connections to LRT. Includes passenger waiting areas, bus infrastructure, lighting, pedestrian signals, bicycle parking, paving, and landscaping.
 Improvements to road infrastructure to improve transit operations and prepare for future LRT construction. ...

http://www.translink.ca/-/media/Document...20_phase_1_project_list%20_june_2016.pdf

I wonder if the road improvements include utility relocations or just widening and intersection changes? All bus service increases and transit priority/system management are still unfunded.