Stadiums and Arenas of Canada part 2

[Riise]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The best thing for the existing Canadian clubs (Calgary Foothills, WSA Winnipeg, Victoria, Thunder Bay, KWC, London) to do would be to strengthen their footholds and try to climb up the US/Canadian ladder via NASL/USL.

Spot on. It's well past time to focus on growing the game rather than attempting to jump on the prettiest rung on the ladder.

[king10]

Hopefully the Argos can improve on the 16K number for their next home game which is on a Friday night. 20K would be great.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

OK so here is what happened with the Alouettes.

1996 - return to the league. Playing at the Big O. Average about 20-25k per game for a pretty good team (former Baltimore Stallions).

1997 - still a good team, still playing at the Big O. Attendance dropped to about 10K per game so I guess the novelty wore off. Playoff game gets bumped by U2 concert and they play at McGill. 16K attend but everyone likes the atmosphère.

1998 - first full season at McGill. Good team but average about 15k

1999 - average at McGill picks up to around 20k and has stayed around there ever since.

It was frequently mentioned in the media at the time that the Als' crowds in 96 were heavily papered and not really reflective of fan interest. By 97 the bottom fell out and as I recall seeing on TV then, the Als played in front of crowds like the ones the Argos had last year.

Your post drives home the point that the Als didn't sell out overnight... in 98, Molson stadium only seated something like 18,000 and the Als weren't selling out. I remember going to their home opener in 98 vs Saskatchewan and being surprised that there were empty seats... but in a couple of years those were gone and the games were sold out . Bottom line is that things won't turn around overnight for the Argos but they're on the right path, in my opinion.

I only saw a bit of last night's game but the crowd definitely looked better than the Ottawa game, although I guess some of that may be due to the tactics Osmo mentioned.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

although I guess some of that may be due to the tactics Osmo mentioned.

And how do we know that because Calvin said so? I wouldn't believe a word he says if I was on fire and he had a bucket of water. This is the guy who constantly revels in trolling about Canada's cheap construction practices compared to the unparalleled excellence in the rest of the world.

Was the shenanigans supposed to be the ticket giveaway of 50 tickets from the Baroness?

[esquire]

^ Fair enough.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Riise

Spot on. It's well past time to focus on growing the game rather than attempting to jump on the prettiest rung on the ladder.

Indeed. I would much prefer to have those teams continue to operate in their own best interest rather than 1)Someone else coming in as an umbrella and running a league for them, or 2)Someone creating a league which does nothing but split the markets and fanbases that these teams have been building in some cases over decades. There needs to be serious collaboration with the pre-existing teams in these areas if a CPL is ever going to be successful in the near-term.

The CPL can't reasonably expect to start a league tomorrow and get into 20K/30K stadiums overnight. They'll have to live with the fact that starting out some of these teams will only be drawing 10K or 5K. Ottawa FC have been around for nearly three years now and are, quite frankly, a best case scenario with their growth. They're doing very well if they can get over 6K out to a match. It needs to be enforced that smaller stadiums are better for building from than planting teams in oversized stadiums too large for their base.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by Acajack

OK so here is what happened with the Alouettes.

1996 - return to the league. Playing at the Big O. Average about 20-25k per game for a pretty good team (former Baltimore Stallions).

1997 - still a good team, still playing at the Big O. Attendance dropped to about 10K per game so I guess the novelty wore off. Playoff game gets bumped by U2 concert and they play at McGill. 16K attend but everyone likes the atmosphère.

1998 - first full season at McGill. Good team but average about 15k

1999 - average at McGill picks up to around 20k and has stayed around there ever since.

One of the reasons for the big drop at the big owe in the second year was apparently due to Larry Smith reigning in the thousands of free tickets given out for every game.

[blueandgoldguy]

Originally Posted by elly63

And how do we know that because Calvin said so? I wouldn't believe a word he says if I was on fire and he had a bucket of water. This is the guy who constantly revels in trolling about Canada's cheap construction practices compared to the unparalleled excellence in the rest of the world.

Was the shenanigans supposed to be the ticket giveaway of 50 tickets from the Baroness?

I have heard elsewhere that the attendance was closer to 14,000 last night. Also, it's not unusual for teams to give 10-15% of distributed tickets away.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Acajack

I guess there was some expectation that the Argos' attendance would bounce up to over 20,000 per game almost immediately, since it's what happened in both Ottawa and Hamilton.

Different situations though.

Ottawa was a new team and new brand, with new ownership that worked to promote itself and carried none of the baggage from the past failures.

Hamilton is drawing about what it did the last couple years at Ivor Wynne. It had everything to do with strong ownership and solid marketing -- which were a problem when the team just about died before new ownership saved it. Attendance had actually peaked at around 28k during Bob Young's first couple seasons, but they were giving away lots of tickets and the "save the team" emotion was carrying them... now they've cut out the giveaways, continued a solid but now mature marketing strategy, have built a strong network of business partnerships, and with THF they're now able to serve the corporate market in a much bigger way. They've been able to keep season ticket sales up and stable too.

I think the change of stadium was absolutely a necessity for the Argos to start rebuilding their brand, but it's going to take a lot more than the new venue to actually rebuild it. Wins would help, but that too is only part of the picture in attracting new (and former) fans and new streams of corporate revenue.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

Different situations though.

Ottawa was a new team and new brand, with new ownership that worked to promote itself and carried none of the baggage from the past failures.

Hamilton is drawing about what it did the last couple years at Ivor Wynne. It had everything to do with strong ownership and solid marketing -- which were a problem when the team just about died before new ownership saved it. Attendance had actually peaked at around 28k during Bob Young's first couple seasons, but they were giving away lots of tickets and the "save the team" emotion was carrying them... now they've cut out the giveaways, continued a solid but now mature marketing strategy, have built a strong network of business partnerships, and with THF they're now able to serve the corporate market in a much bigger way. They've been able to keep season ticket sales up and stable too.

I think the change of stadium was absolutely a necessity for the Argos to start rebuilding their brand, but it's going to take a lot more than the new venue to actually rebuild it. Wins would help, but that too is only part of the picture in attracting new (and former) fans and new streams of corporate revenue.

As shown by the numbers, it took the Alouettes about a year to pick things up at McGill, even with a pretty good team.

My sense is it will take the Argos longer than that, namely because it's more natural here in Quebec for people to think of non-American stuff (everything ranging from Quebec TV shows to the CFL) as legitimately "big time" and worthy of interest than it is in Anglo-Canada where stuff that Americans aren't into is often stigmatized. IF you don't believe me just look at the difference in profile for the CIS in Montreal and Quebec vs. Toronto and Ontario.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As shown by the numbers, it took the Alouettes about a year to pick things up at McGill, even with a pretty good team.

My sense is it will take the Argos longer than that, namely because it's more natural here in Quebec for people to think of non-American stuff (everything ranging from Quebec TV shows to the CFL) as legitimately "big time" and worthy of interest than it is in Anglo-Canada where stuff that Americans aren't into is often stigmatized. IF you don't believe me just look at the difference in profile for the CIS in Montreal and Quebec vs. Toronto and Ontario.

I do think that is part of the Argos' challenge too -- competition in the local market means they will have to work hard to carve out more of their own share of it. It's going to take time, probably much more than a year, to build a strong enough foundation of support that can weather the ups and downs of the win-loss column and bring a steady stream of revenue that may even help return a reasonable and consistent profit.

[Migs]

Originally Posted by Stormer

Fisheye:

Via Stormer

[ZeDgE]

Thats so awesome and depressing at the same time.

[Black Star]

Dam....thats nice

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by Migs

Via Stormer

What is the latest cost estimate on this?

What are the top 5 practical/political/economic factors holding Calgary back from spending this modest amount to get a facility that will satisfy the need for the next 50 or so years?

PLEASE, I don't want arguments, rather straight information.

[Hackslack]

Originally Posted by Acajack

As shown by the numbers, it took the Alouettes about a year to pick things up at McGill, even with a pretty good team.

My sense is it will take the Argos longer than that, namely because it's more natural here in Quebec for people to think of non-American stuff (everything ranging from Quebec TV shows to the CFL) as legitimately "big time" and worthy of interest than it is in Anglo-Canada where stuff that Americans aren't into is often stigmatized. IF you don't believe me just look at the difference in profile for the CIS in Montreal and Quebec vs. Toronto and Ontario.

To me the biggest reason for low attendances is because they have yet to even play on a weeknd. All three of their home games have been on a weeknight, which is not favorable for fans to work that in their busy workday schedule, simple as that. When they get to the weekend game the attendances will increase dramatically. Simple as that.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

To me the biggest reason for low attendances is because they have yet to even play on a weeknd. All three of their home games have been on a weeknight, which is not favorable for fans to work that in their busy workday schedule, simple as that. When they get to the weekend game the attendances will increase dramatically. Simple as that.

Yes, this is no doubt a factor. I would have thought that they'd have better scheduling at BMO but so far it has not been the case.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by ScreamingViking

I do think that is part of the Argos' challenge too -- competition in the local market means they will have to work hard to carve out more of their own share of it. It's going to take time, probably much more than a year, to build a strong enough foundation of support that can weather the ups and downs of the win-loss column and bring a steady stream of revenue that may even help return a reasonable and consistent profit.

Yes.

The Argos definitely have a lot of competition for the sports dollar in Toronto.

When the Alouettes began their renaissance in the late 90s, the Expos were still in town but they were on the decline after peaking in the strike-cancelled season of 1994.

L'Impact were in existence then as well. They had a good team but were playing in a tier-2 league and weren't nearly as popular as today.

So for a good number of years the Alouettes were basically the most popular summer (team) sports ticket in town in Montreal.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by Hackslack

To me the biggest reason for low attendances is because they have yet to even play on a weeknd. All three of their home games have been on a weeknight, which is not favorable for fans to work that in their busy workday schedule, simple as that. When they get to the weekend game the attendances will increase dramatically. Simple as that.

The CFL is getting beat out by soccer in Canada's three largest cities, the CFL has become a stale referee dominated league, there is no flow to games and watching the product is becoming ever increasingly hard to do. There is a reason average CFL attendance has dropped in each of the past five seasons, the game needs fixing!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

The CFL is getting beat out by soccer in Canada's three largest cities, the CFL has become a stale referee dominated league, there is no flow to games and watching the product is becoming ever increasingly hard to do. There is a reason average CFL attendance has dropped in each of the past five seasons, the game needs fixing!

There are blips but generally the trend in recent years has been either flat or slightly downward for large stadium sports attendance. Both the NFL and MLB are trending downwards if you look at it over multiple years.