Winnipeg | Downtown | The Forks Market | Railside at The Forks

[GarryEllice]

Originally Posted by esquire

For what it's worth I share eman's frustration. The cold, hard facts are that for all the success of the East Exchange/Waterfront Drive area, it still doesn't have enough density to support the basic elements of urban life. A proper, functional urban neighbourhood should have things like a small grocery store, a dry cleaner, a bank, in other words, all the basic functions you see at every local strip mall in town.

I think an inherent problem with East Exchange/Waterfront is that it's a dead end. It's not on the way to anywhere. That's always going to hamper commercial activity in comparison with a more connected area that has lots of people passing through, such as the West Exchange.

The railside development at the Forks lies on a natural route between the core and the Forks, so it should get plenty of people passing through.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

I think an inherent problem with East Exchange/Waterfront is that it's a dead end. It's not on the way to anywhere. That's always going to hamper commercial activity in comparison with a more connected area that has lots of people passing through, such as the West Exchange.

The railside development at the Forks lies on a natural route between the core and the Forks, so it should get plenty of people passing through.

Good point... even in a bustling place like NYC the blocks nearest to the Hudson and East Rivers tend to be a bit quieter.

[Kitty Surprise]

Originally Posted by trueviking

we can build tower neighbourhoods anywhere in downtown...a tower can go on any block...the opportunity at the forks is to do something completely special and unique in Winnipeg and Canada....a new pedestrian only community that is rich and active and vibrant.....building a great urban neighbourhood from scratch....that's what I want...not four skyscrapers filled with rich old people who live seven months a year in phoenix and two others in the whiteshell.

Thank you for saying the truth. +1

[wags_in_the_peg]

Originally Posted by trueviking

we can build tower neighbourhoods anywhere in downtown...a tower can go on any block...the opportunity at the forks is to do something completely special and unique in Winnipeg and Canada....a new pedestrian only community that is rich and active and vibrant.....building a great urban neighbourhood from scratch....that's what I want...not four skyscrapers filled with rich old people who live seven months a year in phoenix and two others in the whiteshell.

thoughts on having 3 bedroom places there? in 5 years my kids will be 15 & 17 and i couldn't think of a more vibrant place we can live than the Forks. They would be at the age where a yard is not necessary, but close to university bus routes places, PT jobs, etc. makes it an exciting place to live.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by wags_in_the_peg

thoughts on having 3 bedroom places there? in 5 years my kids will be 15 & 17 and i couldn't think of a more vibrant place we can live than the Forks. They would be at the age where a yard is not necessary, but close to university bus routes places, PT jobs, etc. makes it an exciting place to live.

Brilliant. I'd move the fam to The Forks in a heartbeat if I could ever persuade the Mrs. to go along with it. Three bedrooms downtown would be a niche product but surely there must be a few adventurous families who'd be interested?

[eman]

Originally Posted by trueviking

we can build tower neighbourhoods anywhere in downtown...a tower can go on any block...the opportunity at the forks is to do something completely special and unique in Winnipeg and Canada....a new pedestrian only community that is rich and active and vibrant.....building a great urban neighbourhood from scratch....that's what I want...not four skyscrapers filled with rich old people who live seven months a year in phoenix and two others in the whiteshell.

Vancouverism is world class,, and you are basically describing it,,, yet trying do deliver without the slender towers. In a planned community like this it would totally work. And its not working in the rest of downtown because there is no plan,,, you end up with monster buildings like Fortgarry Place,, and soon TrueNorth Square. Vancouverism,, tall and slender and spaced apart.

Your Winnipegism is the same old,, aim low so you don't have far to fall or get your hopes up for something better. Ironic,, being across the street from a building that truly pushed the limit and aimed for the stars and delivered.

Vancouverism,, say it,,, Vancouverism,, Vancouverism.

I don't even see Vancouverism as a risk,,, its a sure thing, it works. Period.

What if the developer insists that his building must have massive floor plates? Tell him/her,, sorry,, this is the plan, Vancouverism benefits the whole community,, though your floor plates make you more money,, it 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 for everybody else. Vancouverism,, tall, slender and spaced apart. Get it right or wait for a developer that can get it right.

[inlp89]

Originally Posted by trueviking

we can build tower neighbourhoods anywhere in downtown...a tower can go on any block...the opportunity at the forks is to do something completely special and unique in Winnipeg and Canada....a new pedestrian only community that is rich and active and vibrant.....building a great urban neighbourhood from scratch....that's what I want...not four skyscrapers filled with rich old people who live seven months a year in phoenix and two others in the whiteshell.

Mic drop...

[borkborkbork]

Originally Posted by GarryEllice

I think an inherent problem with East Exchange/Waterfront is that it's a dead end. It's not on the way to anywhere. That's always going to hamper commercial activity in comparison with a more connected area that has lots of people passing through, such as the West Exchange.

The railside development at the Forks lies on a natural route between the core and the Forks, so it should get plenty of people passing through.

A lot of the higher-end condos along waterfront (eg Strand) are owned by snowbirds who bought a condo so they can lock and leave during the winter. More rentals (like Bag Factory) with people who actually live there year round will probably help liven up the area.

[wags_in_the_peg]

Originally Posted by esquire

Brilliant. I'd move the fam to The Forks in a heartbeat if I could ever persuade the Mrs. to go along with it. Three bedrooms downtown would be a niche product but surely there must be a few adventurous families who'd be interested?

I don't consider Forks, Downtown, I know it is, but it's just different than skyscrapers and such. I really think there's a market for family living at the Forks. Maybe not small children (due to schools, rinks, etc) but once they are older, I think it's great.

[Cyro]

Originally Posted by eman

Vancouverism is world class,, . Vancouverism,, tall and slender and spaced apart.

Vancouverism,, say it,,, Vancouverism,, Vancouverism.

I don't even see Vancouverism as a risk,,, its a sure thing, it works. Period.

Tell him/her,, sorry,, this is the plan, Vancouverism benefits the whole community,, though your floor plates make you more money,, it 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 for everybody else.

Vancouverism,, tall, slender and spaced apart. Get it right or wait for a developer that can get it right.

This type of city vs. city argument, trolling to try to illicit a response will not fly here. We're done with this type of posting. I hope I've made it clear.

[eman]

Originally Posted by Cyro

This type of city vs. city argument, trolling to try to illicit a response will not fly here. We're done with this type of posting. I hope I've made it clear.

Vancouversim is a real thing worth duplicating. A good plan is a good plan and it works. They could have called it Arthur Ericksonism or James K. M. Chengism.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vancouverism

[scryer]

What's with the commas, Eman? The grammar-nazi in me is convulsing a little.

I don't want to make this into a Vancouver vs. Winnipeg thing either because every city is different and what works in Vancouver doesn't necessarily work in Winnipeg. Even as a former Winnipegger and current Vancouverite, I know from living in both places that there is a HUGE difference in cities/provinces. And both places need to be uniquely loved.

That said, I would still like to see at least one tower and I have the following concerns:

-- A 6 floor limit is very weak for a prominent location downtown in comparison to any city. Should be more like a 6 floor minimum, and maybe a 12 floor limit if we're going for that fabled European mid-rise density.

-- From looking at other mid-rise proposals and U/C projects on these forums in other cities, I see the common "modern, boxy" styled architecture and I fear that the current mid-rise architectural trend in Canada won't do the area justice. Of course I will just have to wait to see who ends up winning the bid on the land and what the proposals actually look like. But bolder designs are typically meant for high-end buyers (regardless of mid-rise or high-rise), which brings me onto my next point...

-- There isn't a large laundry list of reasons to buy in downtown Winnipeg and live there for most. Let's sit down and talk some real here; the core is still considered a hotspot for criminal activity, and the transit system is unreliable and inefficient making Winnipeg a more car-centric city, even in its downtown. In this city, you can spend about the same amount of money on a house or on a condo. In both lifestyles, to reliably get yourself to and from work on time in Winnipeg you still end up purchasing a car. It is a car-centric lifestyle in Winnipeg and in my opinion there is no denying it.

With that said, I feel that there really is no real market for Winnipeggers or new residents to live in downtown when they still need a car to get around conveniently anyways. Bottom-line: I don't think that there is a market for people to actually live in this parcel of land and that this project may have a stronger market for real-estate and foreign investment. And with a 6 floor limit, as a developer, I would want as much bang for my buck.

All in all, I need to see some proposals before making any judgements. But my first impressions of the land's potential bids is underwhelming. I hate to bring back Vancouver as a point of comparison (as someone got carried away with it...) but if you look at Vancouver's Yaletown area, and if you took away the fact that it was almost completely built out of foreign investment, then you pretty much have the same potential for Parcel 4. And I don't want to see Winnipeg screw up this amazing opportunity and it is frustrating as a former Winnipegger to see that there is already a very weak 6 floor limit on proposals.

[Urban recluse]

There is also Calgary's Eau Claire redevelopment which could be a source of inspiration.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-esta...-eau-claire-market-mall/article29569897/

[optimusREIM]

perhaps something similar to the eau Claire proposal might work better on Parcel 4 whereas the rail side lands could work with the 6 flr limit proposed. Honestly, as long as the visual design elements are done right as well as the presence of street front retail (everything would be densely packed with a couple nice plazas) then I'm ok with the height restriction. Although it would make sense to allow a few taller buildings on top of tightly packed podiums.

[biguc]

Originally Posted by esquire

Brilliant. I'd move the fam to The Forks in a heartbeat if I could ever persuade the Mrs. to go along with it. Three bedrooms downtown would be a niche product but surely there must be a few adventurous families who'd be interested?

For reasons I don't really understand larger apartments are super popular in some cities. Like, a slumlord will actually merge apartments into 5 bedroom units, unlike Winnipeg slumlords who subdivide apartments into ever smaller suites.

A strong room-mate culture plays into it, but at the same time, the large units in buildings like the Roslyn are extremely popular with young people who want live with lots of people. Renting houses or floors of houses is also popular with that demographic.

I wonder if 3 bedrooms don't happen here because of our rental laws--specifically the one that stipulates that each tenants earn 3 times the rent. That alone prices most people out of a $2000 a month three bedroom.

[Bluenote]

Originally Posted by Urban recluse

There is also Calgary's Eau Claire redevelopment which could be a source of inspiration.


http://www.theglobeandmail.com/real-esta...-eau-claire-market-mall/article29569897/

I like

[trueviking]

^Yawn.

1000 rich people in five ugly towers. Boring.

...and we will wait eight years, watching the paint peel off the marketing billboard on site, to eventually have them announce they could only pre-sell 140 of the 300 units in the first tower, so they will be scaling back or cancelling the project.

No point in arguing any longer. Thankfully the Forks people see past the vanity of towers and are looking to create something unique and different. High density urban neighbourhood. It's a done deal, so we will have to copy other bland, sterile cities in a different area of downtown.

[trueviking]

I actually think they are completely destroying Eau Claire. It could have been a special public space.

[blueandgoldguy]

I would be fine with a six-8 story limit on the buildings in that parking lot. It would make the area seem more personable.

Any ideas on the total number of people who could live in that parking lot assuming 6 story buildings become the preferred choice? 500? 1000? 1500?

[Andy6]

Originally Posted by trueviking

^Yawn.

1000 rich people in five ugly towers. Boring.

...and we will wait eight years, watching the paint peel off the marketing billboard on site, to eventually have them announce they could only pre-sell 140 of the 300 units in the first tower, so they will be scaling back or cancelling the project.

No point in arguing any longer. Thankfully the Forks people see past the vanity of towers and are looking to create something unique and different. High density urban neighbourhood. It's a done deal, so we will have to copy other bland, sterile cities in a different area of downtown.

Well said. The proliferation of towers in Toronto is ruining the city. The only really nice part of the city is the part east of Yonge street that is most like downtown Winnipeg. Thankfully the economics of Winnipeg are such that it will do the right thing because it has no choice.