PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[Outta here]

Ok , not in time for but , what a plus something like the canceled Mandeville Place Tower @ 608'
as a residential / hotel / restaurant / parking garage , would have made for the DNC @ the convention
center , just a short walk or cab ride away .

Yes , I know it's too frigging late but I get a migraine every time I think of what could have or should
have been built at that black hole in space .......

[Milksteak]

Originally Posted by Outta here

Ok , not in time for but , what a plus something like the canceled Mandeville Place Tower @ 608'
as a residential / hotel / restaurant / parking garage , would have made for the DNC @ the convention
center , just a short walk or cab ride away .

Yes , I know it's too frigging late but I get a migraine every time I think of what could have or should
have been built at that black hole in space .......

That was before my time of stalking this forum...what ever happened to that proposal?

[Parkway]

Originally Posted by Milksteak

That was before my time of stalking this forum...what ever happened to that proposal?

It died a slow and ignominious death on the bone pile of overly ambitious condo projects created by the 2007 market crash... Basically pushed deadlines, silence, and then the lot was sold.

[1487]

i was looking at the permit map and I checked on 200 N. 16th street, the PMC conversion project. A ton of violations were issued for work without a permit- hard to believe such a major company would operate like this. Recently a building permit was granted for the removal of the entire facade and it appears there will be a tower crane erected to re-clad the building. Not sure where they can put one, but I guess time will tell.

[Cro Burnham]

PMC has always had a rep for "unconventional" construction practices, AFAIK. I think they do their own construction, in-house. Some developers think they can do construction cheaper keeping it in-house. My guess is that while costs may be lower, often so is quality, and delivery is often greatly delayed.

[EastSideHBG]

Cool article, pics and 360 degree panoramas:

Comcast skyscraper's carefully choreographed construction is a ballet of billets and brawn By Bob Fernandez / Staff Writer

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/co..._will_be_Phillys_tallest_skyscraper.html

[iheartphilly]

Does anyone know what the rate per square footage for a trophy tower vs. NYC?

Also, what is the rate of square footage of new residential construction vs. nationwide?

Thanks!

[1487]

Originally Posted by iheartphilly

Does anyone know what the rate per square footage for a trophy tower vs. NYC?

Also, what is the rate of square footage of new residential construction vs. nationwide?

Thanks!

midtown is more expensive than downtown manhattan. I think downtown is in the $50s per sf vs almost 30/sf in Philly. Midtown is even higher than that. The CCD often publishes stats on this in their reports.

[jsbrook]

Originally Posted by 1487

midtown is more expensive than downtown manhattan. I think downtown is in the $50s per sf vs almost 30/sf in Philly. Midtown is even higher than that. The CCD often publishes stats on this in their reports.

I don't understand your numbers. $30 or $50 per square foot to buy. Something must be lost in translation.

[1487]

Originally Posted by jsbrook

I don't understand your numbers. $30 or $50 per square foot to buy. Something must be lost in translation.

rental rates per sf for class A office space. The rate is around $30 psf in Phila for class A trophy tower space. Far lower than Manhattan, Boston or DC. These are RENTAL rates for office space.

[PhillySteaks]

Originally Posted by 1487

rental rates per sf for class A office space. The rate is around $30 psf in Phila for class A trophy tower space. Far lower than Manhattan, Boston or DC. These are RENTAL rates for office space.

These are all quoted on a gross basis, so apples to apples. These are Office Rates.

New York - Average
Midtown: $75.02 psf
Midtown South: $70.39 psf
Downtown: $57.95 psf

New York - Class A
Midtown: $81.19 psf
Midtown South: $81.67 psf (Chelsea Area / Silicon Alley / Google, etc.)
Downtown: $63.25 psf

10 Hudson Yards (Trophy): Quoted at high $80s psf for 10-15yrs back in mid 2015, so it's probably higher by now. I took a tour of this building during construction. It's going to be amazing. Only building not built on the platform, so no ground lease. Also the lobby builds right off the High Line, and is the closest to the 7 train extension.

Boston - Average: $56.25 psf
Boston - Class A: $60.76 psf
Boston - Trophy: Not sure

DC - Average: $53.49 psf
DC - Class A: $58.83 psf
DC - Trophy: Not Sure (Don't think there are any comps readily available)

Philadelphia - Average: $29.79 psf
Philadelphia - Class A: $31.40 psf
FMC Tower (Trophy): Rents have been booked at $50+. Trophy space is limited throughout the city.

*Source: JLL Market Statistics 2Q16 (these are readily available online)

Kind of sad when Philly's Trophy is in line with DC's class B space lol. Won't change until we stop falling behind the rest of the east coast in job creation. To be fair though Philly isn't a comparable city to NY/Boston/DC from an investment perspective. New York is on par with international cities (London, Sydney, etc.) Boston and DC are good comparables. You want to compare Philadelphia investments against similar projects in Baltimore, St. Louis, Dallas, or Phoenix. Income Growth is much much much higher in the other NE cities. Not exactly fair to compare Philly to the other big 3.

[hammersklavier]

I'm very much of the opinion that savvy office space brokers need to be out there drumming up business in NY and DC particularly. "NYC QOL for St. Louis prices!"

[PhillySteaks]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

I'm very much of the opinion that savvy office space brokers need to be out there drumming up business in NY and DC particularly. "NYC QOL for St. Louis prices!"

Haha, good luck with that sales pitch. That's like trying to get someone from Philadelphia to move to Cleveland because it's cheaper.

[eaglesfanone]

Law, education, medicine, Comcast, or govenrment....you work for any of those you are set and could have a QOL rivaling that of New York....maybe

[DudeGuy]

Originally Posted by PhillySteaks

I'm from Philly. I think the only people you can convince Philly has the same QOL as New York is other Philadelphians....but that's just my opinion. Nothing wrong with it, but we are the poorest big city for a reason. There are many many many city services that we don't have (trash cans, street sweeping, and non-aggressive homeless people come to mind first). This is a hardcore to the bone blue collar town and that will never change - again, nothing wrong with that. Just very different. New York has hipsters that drink PBR because it's cool. Philadelphia has hipsters that drink PBR because that's all they can afford. Which is a great if you are an artist or social media activist, but more or less makes you move to another city if you have ambitions to make big time money. I'm not talking $75-100k, I'm talking $200k+. Those jobs are far and few here (albeit you work in a few sectors like law/healthcare here in city of brotherly love). Plenty of back office jobs in Philly, have to leave if you want to be front office.

This is a super fatalist attitude. Of course we'll never have nice things if we don't think we deserve them.

[Larry King]

Originally Posted by PhillySteaks

That's what I was saying, you can't compare NY to Philly - no one will believe that NY and Philly have the same QOL because it's not true, there are plenty of statistics to back that up. Nothing wrong with it, but we are the poorest big city for a reason. There are many many many city services that we don't have (trash cans, street sweeping, and non-aggressive homeless people come to mind first). This is a hardcore to the bone blue collar town and that will never change - again, nothing wrong with that. Just very different, and really not comparable to anyone who has spent extended time living in both metros. New York has hipsters that drink PBR because it's trendy. Philadelphia has hipsters that drink PBR because that's all they can afford. Which is great if you are an artist or bookkeeper, but more or less makes you move to another city if you have ambitions to make big time money. I'm not talking $75-100k, I'm talking $200k+. Those jobs are far and few here (albeit you work in a few sectors like law/healthcare here in city of brotherly love). Plenty of back office jobs in Philly, usually have to leave if you want to be front office. Obviously there are exceptions.

The appeal for Philly will always be more on the side of small business/entrepreneurs than big corporation, I think it's just about always been that way.

[PhillySteaks]

Originally Posted by DudeGuy

This is a super fatalist attitude. Of course we'll never have nice things if we don't think we deserve them.

Yea I deleted my original comment since I assumed most people would read into it with the wrong context.

It's just the way it is right now. Just being realistic from personal observations after growing up here and spending a decade plus in NY, then coming back to philly (I'll admit not for a job lol). Can it change? Yea definitely, but for the time being it's just not the case.

[PhillySteaks]

Originally Posted by eaglesfanone

Law, education, medicine, Comcast, or govenrment....you work for any of those you are set and could have a QOL rivaling that of New York....maybe

Agreed, there are exceptions as always. Just fewer opportunities for those top tier ambition people to grow a career and move into the upper echelon of income brackets.

[UrbanRevival]

Originally Posted by PhillySteaks

Agreed, there are exceptions as always. Just fewer opportunities for those top tier ambition people to grow a career and move into the upper echelon of income brackets.

I mean, if we're going down the road of comparisons, no city can match the career/earnings potential of New York, but even then we're talking about a very small pool of people (let's not forget that the median household income in New York City is approximately 50k--not exactly indicative of some widespread lavish lifestyle. In addition, it's not exactly desirable for a city to become the land of oligarchs.

Also, just for context, a recent study of the top 100 metro areas ranked Philly 7th for career advancement and 12th for pay potential--definitely placing it firmly near the upper echelons for opportunity: http://www.bankrate.com/finance/jobs-careers/best-places-for-jobs.aspx.

Essentially, there's much more opportunity and career potential in the city/region than conventional wisdom suggests, and the numbers bear that out. Especially when you consider COL to salary ratio, particularly among educated professionals, Philly absolutely wins out compared to cities like NYC, Boston, SF and DC that are often cited as being " more opportune."

I think it's honestly a matter of time before more and more companies from outside of the region tap into the willing and very able Philly talent pool, given the imbalance that is very quickly building other major cities.

[iheartphilly]

I heard if you combine both Montgomery County and Chester County, there are more jobs in these two counties than all of Philly. A lot of high paying jobs in the suburbs as evidenced by median home values.