Arbutus: Greenway & Future Streetcar | Proposed

[retro_orange]

Originally Posted by Jebby

I think that there should be a business case for any new infrastructure project and that the users of said infrastructure should pay for it. Tolls for new highways and bridges, fares on rapid transit, surcharge on water bill for new pipeline, etc.

I don't think government should be in the real estate development business.


It's great. A Trump presidency will be good for Mexico.

Haha, it was their business until the CMHC came along and we haven't had suitable rental housing built since the government was mandated to build at a rate on par with local needs of individual cities. In the 35 years since its quite clear that the private sector will not do a thing to help the situation other then earn the most money for themselves. Please think before speaking or typing.

Have fun building and paying for your own border wall crossing.

[logicbomb]

Got to check out the progress along the line. Rail removal continues and crews are near 33rd Ave. Everything north is gone and this includes several road crossings along with crossing signals.

Expect to see the COV consult the local business community in the next 2 months and draw up future plans for the ROW before the end of the year. I stated it a few months ago but there is a growing sense that the ROW east of Burrard will get sold off. This will obviously kill any False Creek-Arbutus LRT plan.

[MIPS]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

This will obviously kill any False Creek-Arbutus LRT plan.

It's fairly obvious by now that Robertson and his minions plan to sabotage any future attempts to install LRT or preserve the RoW. They are hellbent on their pretty little greenways and bike lanes that they just want things done and committed now before they're kicked out in the next election.

[s211]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

Got to check out the progress along the line. Rail removal continues and crews are near 33rd Ave. Everything north is gone and this includes several road crossings along with crossing signals.

Expect to see the COV consult the local business community in the next 2 months and draw up future plans for the ROW before the end of the year. I stated it a few months ago but there is a growing sense that the ROW east of Burrard will get sold off. This will obviously kill any False Creek-Arbutus LRT plan.

I think you forgot to put quotation marks around "consult".

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by MIPS

It's fairly obvious by now that Robertson and his minions plan to sabotage any future attempts to install LRT or preserve the RoW. They are hellbent on their pretty little greenways and bike lanes that they just want things done and committed now before they're kicked out in the next election.

I suspect they want to preserve the Arbutus corridor by using it for bike lanes / jogging lanes, so they don't have to make any LRT track decisions in the near future.

And there is no desire by the City to make any Arbutus rail decisions until after the Broadway Skytrain has opened (to UBC or Arbutus). They don't want Arbutus rail to distract from getting Broadway Skytrain done first

I expect a simple bike / jogging path to be in place for a few decades, which should keep the corridor minimally developed until the Arbutus Tram / Trolly / LRT / Skytrain is decided.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

I suspect they want to preserve the Arbutus corridor by using it for bike lanes / jogging lanes, so they don't have to make any LRT track decisions in the near future.

And there is no desire by the City to make any Arbutus rail decisions until after the Broadway Skytrain has opened (to UBC or Arbutus). They don't want Arbutus rail to distract from getting Broadway Skytrain done first

I expect a simple bike / jogging path to be in place for a few decades, which should keep the corridor minimally developed until the Arbutus Tram / Trolly / LRT / Skytrain is decided.

This. I fully expect that this is a good stop-gap measure and that in the (far) future it will be dug up to put in a SkyTrain underground, and then the greenway will be rebuilt on top. The current plan in no way prevents rapid transit. What are we supposed to do, sit and wait with the abandoned railway until it's finally feasible to build a tram? Realistically, even if it wasn't built, we'd be waiting 30 years at a minimum to see anything even being spoken about it. This is a great solution in the meantime.

[MIPS]

We lose the connection between Arbutus and False creek and we basically lose half the potential length of the line. Makes it a lot harder to sell the idea in the future when both ends of the line terminate nowhere near another rail connection (unless you open a SkyTrain station at Broadway and Arbutus) but sure, I guess we can wait and see what they plan.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by MIPS

We lose the connection between Arbutus and False creek and we basically lose half the potential length of the line. Makes it a lot harder to sell the idea in the future when both ends of the line terminate nowhere near another rail connection but sure, I guess we can wait and see what they plan.

I think the line that goes around False Creek (ideally all the way to Stanley Park) would be a lot different than some kind of commuter service up Arbutus, which is a lifetime away.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I think the line that goes around False Creek (ideally all the way to Stanley Park) would be a lot different than some kind of commuter service up Arbutus, which is a lifetime away.

I honestly don't think it is a lifetime away.

Translink and the Mayors have a 10 year plan. There is a lot on that plan. And it's only for 10 years. And I don't think it is that far fetched or too ambitious. We were a mere 0.5% sales tax away from making it happen.

So, after 10 years, then what? We would have Broadway Subway, Surrey rapid transit, more seabuses, Pattullo Bridge.... all built or under construction. Then what?

Seriously, 2030, ain't that far away, so what would be next?

The region is growing, and the price of detached homes in the City is unsustainable. They will start to vanish in favor of blocks of row homes and low rise condos and condo towers. If the market keeps up, I don't think it will be long until much of Vancouver resembles Kits and Marpole instead of suburbia lined with houses.

Without new roads around the city, large numbers of people are going to have to get around somehow, and we won't have enough money to blanket the city with subways, so light rail will be needed for its capacity. A logical first choice to get it off the ground is using the Arbutus ROW and the ROW that has been preserved around downtown. The first phases of this growth could be focused around the ROW we have.

After that, I fully see in my lifetime, the city trading in parking spaces and lanes on major streets in favor of segregated streetcars. What else can we actually afford to do?

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I honestly don't think it is a lifetime away.

Translink and the Mayors have a 10 year plan. There is a lot on that plan. And it's only for 10 years. And I don't think it is that far fetched or too ambitious. We were a mere 0.5% sales tax away from making it happen.

So, after 10 years, then what? We would have Broadway Subway, Surrey rapid transit, more seabuses, Pattullo Bridge.... all built or under construction. Then what?

I like your optimism, but Campbell had a 2020 plan in about 2008 that included Billions in transit improvements we haven't seen yet.

Timelines as I see them:

2025 - Arbutus extension line open
2030 - some form of Surrey/Langley line
2035 - Arbutus extended to UBC
2040 - Streetcar
2045 - Additional rail in Surrey
2050 - Arbutus LRT is on the radar

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I like your optimism, but Campbell had a 2020 plan in about 2008 that included Billions in transit improvements we haven't seen yet.

Timelines as I see them:

2025 - Arbutus extension line open
2030 - some form of Surrey/Langley line
2035 - Arbutus extended to UBC
2040 - Streetcar
2045 - Additional rail in Surrey
2050 - Arbutus LRT is on the radar

That sounds like a reasonable timetable right now, but keep in mind Metcalfe's Law: the value of the network grows almost exponentially to the number of units that you add. You can only use two computers to make one connection, but five computers can make ten connections and twelve can make sixty-six.

Same (more or less) with rapid transit and increased revenue. And given the projected ridership for the Broadway and Langley extensions, it's possible that in a decade we might see a new line built every three to five years.

[cornholio]

No idea why everyone keeps talking about at grade or bellow grade transit. In 20 to 30 years there should be a above ground guide way with skytrain type technology, if transit is not being killed of by then with autonomous driver-less shared personal electric vehicles. By then there will be amalgamation and the local community will no longer have the power to hold the city hostage. Amalgamation is going to be the next big thing the province will push on to the city in the near medium term future. There is no argument against a above ground guideway, everything bellow the guideway can be trails and parks space.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by cornholio

No idea why everyone keeps talking about at grade or bellow grade transit. In 20 to 30 years there should be a above ground guide way with skytrain type technology, if transit is not being killed of by then with autonomous driver-less shared personal electric vehicles. By then there will be amalgamation and the local community will no longer have the power to hold the city hostage. Amalgamation is going to be the next big thing the province will push on to the city in the near medium term future. There is no argument against a above ground guideway, everything bellow the guideway can be trails and parks space.

Ahem.
http://council.vancouver.ca/000118/p3.htm

Council: January 18, 2000

TO:

Vancouver City Council

FROM:

Director of City Plans and General Manager of Engineering Services in consultation with the Director of Legal Services

SUBJECT:

Existing City Policy Arbutus Corridor


...
3. Vancouver Greenways Plan

On July 18, 1995, following on actions identified by an Urban Landscape Task Force and approved in CityPlan, Council adopted the City of Vancouver Greenways Plan. Greenways are paths for pedestrians and cyclists. Their purpose is to expand the opportunities for urban recreation and accessibility.

The Greenways Plan is a long term strategy for developing a network of city and neighbourhood greenways. The Arbutus Corridor is identified as one of four potential north-south greenways. The Plan notes that:

“The Arbutus rail right-of-way, owned by the Canadian Pacific Railway, is in active rail use....The corridor is designated a GVRD Green Zone and identified as a possible transit corridor to Richmond. Possibilities exist to share transit and Greenway use when the rail line is redeveloped.”

BUT

http://former.vancouver.ca/commsvcs/BYLAWS/odp/ac.pdf

ARBUTUS CORRIDOR
OFFICIAL DEVELOPMENT PLAN
(Adopted by By-law No. 8249, July 25, 2000)

Section 2 Designations
2.1 Designations for the Arbutus Corridor
This plan designates all of the land in the Arbutus Corridor for use only as a public thoroughfare
for the purpose only of:

(a) transportation, including without limitations:
(i) rail;
(ii) transit; and
(iii) cyclist paths
but excluding:
(iv) motor vehicles except on City streets crossing the Arbutus Corridor; and
(v) any grade-separated rapid transit system elevated, in whole or in part, above the surface of the ground, of which one type is the rapid transit system know as “SkyTrain” currently in use in the Lower Mainland;

(b) greenways, including without limitation:
(i) pedestrian paths, including without limitation urban walks, environmental demonstration trails, heritage walks and nature trails; and
(ii) cyclist paths.

[WarrenC12]

Arbutus was considered as a possible corridor for the Canada Line. Now that it has been built, the chances of rail along Arbutus are not likely in this lifetime.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Arbutus was considered as a possible corridor for the Canada Line. Now that it has been built, the chances of rail along Arbutus are not likely in this lifetime.

Guideway construction along the corridor would be cheap. There are no utilities to worry about or relocate and all land is assembled, in place and ready to go. Cost would be probably well under 50 mill per km. Arbutus to Marine station is like 8km's. Probably can build it for around 400 mill with the 5 or 6 stations. In 20-30 years its the logical choice. Assuming transit by then is not losing to driver-less, electric, shared, networked personal vehicles.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Assuming transit by then is not losing to driver-less, electric, shared, networked personal vehicles.

Sorry, by "personal vehicles," are you referring to PRT or to self-driving cars? Because neither one seems likely to replace transit.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Sorry, by "personal vehicles," are you referring to PRT or to self-driving cars? Because neither one seems likely to replace transit.

We'll know in a few years if the robo-cars + Uber technology model kills the taxi market.

The next disruptive model will be when people realize they can live without a personal car, since they can have a Uber Robo-Car available on-demand (and is cheaper than a taxi).

Without a personal vehicle, they don't have to pay for taxes, maintenance, lease, insurance, parking, or gas for the use of a car.

We're already seeing hints of this change in Vancouver with the Shared Car programs being offered by ZipCar, Modo, Car2Go, Evo.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That sounds like a reasonable timetable right now, but keep in mind Metcalfe's Law: the value of the network grows almost exponentially to the number of units that you add. You can only use two computers to make one connection, but five computers can make ten connections and twelve can make sixty-six.

Same (more or less) with rapid transit and increased revenue. And given the projected ridership for the Broadway and Langley extensions, it's possible that in a decade we might see a new line built every three to five years.

The other thing to keep in mind, is right now we are focusing on the mega projects. Both Broadway Subway and Surrey LRT (as imagined by Surrey Council) will come in well over $2 billion each. Once the Broadway line is built and Surrey is built as Skytrain, we will have a pretty complete rapid transit network spaning much of the region, from Coquitlam to the Airport, from Langley to Arbutus.

Once the intermediate/long range town center connecting services are in place, then we can switch to building high capacity local serevice and feeder routes. These projects would be a lot cheaper than the current mega projects, so with the same revenue sources, we could build more, more frequently.

Building a local service on the Arbutus ROW and on the reserved ROW for the downtown streetcar would be much cheaper than the other projects we have been building. The $1.4 billion we are spending on 11km of Evergreen line could easily build 50+km of streetcar (going at the rate of $27million/km of the First Hill streetcar in Seattle). That would be a lot of coverage.

So if you break them down in reasonable projects, the cost is much more manageable than the projects of today. Once nothing else is on our plate, does a $200 million downtown streetcar or Arbutus line really seem that hard to do?

So going forward, after the 10 year plan, we have the opportunity to build out high capacity lines in future (and current) high density neighborhoods, to feed Rapid Skytrain lines or circulate passengers around the city core(s).

Originally Posted by cornholio

No idea why everyone keeps talking about at grade or bellow grade transit. In 20 to 30 years there should be a above ground guide way with skytrain type technology, if transit is not being killed of by then with autonomous driver-less shared personal electric vehicles. By then there will be amalgamation and the local community will no longer have the power to hold the city hostage. Amalgamation is going to be the next big thing the province will push on to the city in the near medium term future. There is no argument against a above ground guideway, everything bellow the guideway can be trails and parks space.

There is no way we could support a population in 20 years all using autonomous driverless shared vehicles. That would be an insane number of vehicles on the road. When you think something like 45% of people entering downtown do so by transit, in a handful of individual transit vehicles, if all those people switched to vehicles, that would be like at least a quadrupling of vehicles on the road. We don't have the road capacity for that. A bus entering downtown has 40 people on it, even with 4 people per car, that's 10 car replacing that 1 bus. You would need 100 cars to replace a single skytrain. Not only that, but the cars need to enter, then leave downtown to pick up more people, so that's another doubling of volume on the roads.

It's like when they say, "instead of Skytrain to UBC, we could give every single student a car". Yeah, sure, but we would also need to build a brand new 10 lane freeway directly to UBC to support that many cars, which would cost more than Skytrain.

Automated cars will not kill off transit. If anything, it will propel transit into being the default mode of transport for people in the region, with people using car shares for specialized trips or time sensitive errands. We will need high capacity short distance transit to accommodate the common short trips that will change to transit.

[swimmer_spe]

What gets me about this line is passenger volumes.

If we were to make a list of all the bus routes, including the B-lines, this line likely would not even be a top 10.

After the line to UBC is built, it makes sense to replace heavy traveled bus routes into Skytrain lines.

Page 18:
http://www.translink.ca/-/media/Document...2014%20BSPR/2014_bspr_summary_report.pdf

1 - 99
2 - 49
3 - 25
4 - 41
5 - 410
6- 130
7 - 502
8 - 135
9 - 43
10 - 84

99 is the route to UBC. Once the Millennium line is extended to UBC, that bus route will not be nearly as busy.

49 Goes from Metrotown to UBC via Langara station. Chances are, this bus route's ridership will go down too as the Millennium line is extended. People likely will go to their nearest station.

25 is also another UBC bus route.

41 is, what do you know, another UBC route.

410 connects the end of the Canada Line to 22nd Street Station and then heads into Richmond.

130 connects Metrotown and Brentwood Stations to Phibbs Exchange and to Capilano University. This would make some sense to start looking at putting the Skytrain into North Vancouver

502 Goes down the Fraser Highway to Langley. This follows one arm of the LRT planned. Maybe it should be built as a Skytrain?

135 goes from Waterfront to SFU. There has been much talk about how to get up the mountain.

43 is another UBC route

84 is another UBC route.

Not once did any N/S route that was near the Arbutus ROW make it to the top 10 routes. UBC has 6 of the top 10 routes. Going to UBC, Capilano University and SFU are all on the top 10. Going to Langley is also on the top 10.

So, using this logic, and putting 5 year marks on each:
2020: the extension to UBC will be done first.
2025: LRT, or possibly Skytrain to Langley
2030: Skytrain into North Vancouver
2035: Skytrain or other transit into SFU
2040: Skytrain East/west connecting the Canada line and Expo Line in Richmond and Surrey, south of the north Fraser River.

In 2040, most of the current UBC students will be middle aged. I will be almost reaching retirement age. Even then, I doubt there will be talk of turning a beautiful greenway into anything transit related.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

-snip-

A) Just because SkyTrain keeps expanding doesn't mean it's the only item in the budget. If TransLink can find $120M to allocate to an SFU gondola (also a good idea), then $200M for a light rail line in-between RRT projects seems more than reasonable. Even more so, given the anticipated revenue from the Broadway and Langley extensions.

B) Those are the current numbers. Once the city's SkyTrain backbone gets expanded down Broadway, you're going to see a lot more north-south ridership in the West Side from people trying to get to the Millennium - especially along the Corridor, which is getting a whole crapload of townhomes and zero rapid transit.