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  #6881  
Old Posted Jun 6, 2016, 6:07 PM
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I had no idea there was even any demand from developers to build more transit-friendly developments along 5600W. The fact that gateway-style developments were even proposed is very interesting. I like Future Mayor's idea of creating a binding agreement to change the zoning along 5600 W when the BRT line is built. Maybe make it into a Public Private Partnership from the beginning and get some firm commitments from interested developers to ensure that transit-friendly developments actually do occur. It is no good to just build a transit line through a town and just hope for the best. "Build it and they will come" is not always true, especially for a transit route that has very little merit on its own besides being a freeway mitigation project.

A quick look at the current design of 5600 West shows that it has two lanes in each direction, a wide center median, and two generous shoulders on both sides. It seems to me that a design similar to what will be built down University Avenue in Provo would be a good example of how BRT will change a street like that. The center median will be replaced with bus lanes; the two traffic lanes on each side will be pushed closer to the edge of the road, and the wide shoulders will become narrow unprotected bike lanes. In locations where there is a station or an intersection with a turn lane, the road will need to be widened. But at other less traffic-heavy intersections, the center curb will continue through the intersection, eliminating left turn lanes on 5600W and changing the minor street to right-turns-only. Probably, if it follows the same design cues as the Provo line.
This could be done without widening the road for the majority of the BRT route. So from a strictly traffic engineering point of view, there aren't any fatal flaws in the design. But if the cities want to follow Orem's BRT arrangement on University Parkway (or even 400S in Salt Lake City) and widen to three lanes in each direction plus BRT lanes, then we've got some serious problems.
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  #6882  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2016, 12:00 PM
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Here is link to an old article on the project:

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=9778104&itype=NGPSID

The project has changed a bit but it is still in play. Additionally, the LDS pasta plant has recently closed. While not included in the project originally, this land may be redeveloped along with the project when it happens.
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  #6883  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2016, 4:52 PM
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Changing the subject a bit, TRAINS Magazine (a national magazine covering all types of railroad news across North America circulating to nearly 100,000 subscribers) is doing a cover story on FrontRunner this month:

The story describes how UTA got to be in the unique situation of running all the transit along the Wasatch Front, rather than having separate agencies do light rail, bus, street car, and commuter rail. That alone gives UTA an amazing advantage compared to other transit agencies. It also describes how UTA got its own separate right-of-way for FrontRunner, which is also extremely unique. It made me remember how awesome our rail transit landscape is compared to every other metro area our size, and also compared to many other cities much larger (such as Seattle, Phoenix, Huston, etc). So while I often complain and promote ideas to make FrontRunner better, it is because it is so awesome already and has so much built-in potential to be truly amazing.
The story ended by described some of the future plans UTA has for FrontRunner, and it was all the stuff we heard about before... Extensions to Payson first, then Brigham City, then perhaps all the way down to Nephi. Double Tracking was mentioned as a high priority despite the expense, but electrifying wasn't mentioned (ideally you'd want to electrify after all your track is in its final location, so that you aren't moving catenary foundation poles in order to fit a second track into your alignment). The most immediate project mentioned, though, was added a second commet car to every consist, which would require both repairs to the currently out-of-service commet cars sitting at Warm Springs, and also lengthening platforms and crosswalks at practically every station.
Currently, only 5 of 16 stations can handle a second commet car on every train; Salt Lake Central, North Temple, Layton, Roy, and Ogden. That means the other 11 stations will need significant modification before these longer trains run. Take Provo, for instance. Because of the grade crossing immediately north (railroad north, actually west) of the platform, the second commet car would have to be positioned at the 'high block' area, where the platform is raised to the Bombardier floor height - 25 inches above the Top Of Rail. The lower step of the commet car is only 18 inches above the TOR, meaning there would be a 7-inch step down to the first step before climbing up into the car. The only way to solve this problem would be to grind down the platform to a more appropriate height. And that sounds expensive to me. I wonder if UTA can somehow get a safety waver from the FTA/FRA that would allow them to operate with a step down before up?
It will be interesting to see how UTA solves this problem that it was not designed for. Each of the south stations (and North Temple also) has room for a 4th Bombardier car, but none of the others do. It's kind of crazy that UTA didn't construct is platforms in the South section with enough room to run a second commet car, because they did construct them that way in the North section. UTA knew it had enough cars to run a second car in each train and still have extras, but still chose not to design their platforms with that kind of capability (they have 25 commet cars total, 18 would be needed at peak hours with 4 more on the standby trains). They also knew that their yard areas aren't big enough to handle the longer trains. Perhaps they will finally construct long enough yard tracks in the old Salt Lake container yard.
Long story short, UTA knows they need to add capacity, but there is no easy way to do it. They've maxed out their options, so they've got to work on several fronts that will all require modifications/construction. Adding cars will require platform changes and yard capacity, while adding a second track will take time and be expensive.
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  #6884  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2016, 5:16 PM
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I wonder if in the short term they could add the second Comet car for capacity and just require loading and unloading at the shorter platforms through the first Comet car?

All that is assuming that the Comet Cars have pass through access from car to car, just like the Bombardier cars do. I've been on FrontRunner several times, but haven't been in a Comet Car.
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  #6885  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2016, 5:44 PM
arkhitektor arkhitektor is offline
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I think it would be a waste of money to retrofit stations to utilize more 30+ year old second-hand cars. It seems like that money would be better spent purchasing more bi-level cars instead.
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  #6886  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2016, 5:56 PM
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I agree about retrofitting for 30 year old cars.

If there is a pass through option for the Comet cars, why not place another one at the end of the train and do a pass through from the last Bombardier car.

This could also help to avoid lengthening the shorter stations as well. It will block some crosswalks but honestly, they shouldn't be in use when the train is at the station anyway.

UTA could sell the car as being an express car.

Once UTA has more Bombardier cars, they can swap out the additional Comet car and begin work to extend the station platforms.

I think this would be cheaper in the long run and keep funds prioritized for double tracking, electrification, enhancements for newer passenger cars, and eventually extensions.
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  #6887  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2016, 6:12 PM
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While I'm positive the costs aren't even close, why not simply save the money to retrofit the platforms, add the second Comet car that exists out of an existing car and put the money for the platform retro fit into the double tracking fund. Once double tracked the need for the second Comet car may be eliminated, for the time being, due to an increase in frequency.
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  #6888  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2016, 8:26 PM
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The comet cars do indeed have walk-through capabilities, so loading/unloading through another car is definitely an option, if you choose to make longer stops (so that more people can use the same number of doors). What they lack, though, is a cab for the operator, so they cannot be on the back of the train, as that becomes the front for southbound journeys.

Retrofitting at least the ten cars UTA sent to Los Angeles a few years ago shouldn't be that expensive; UTA never put them in service again after they got them back from Metrolink because apparently the Californians treated them like rental cars and didn't maintain or clean them at all. But the cars would still technically run, meaning UTA can choose between the bad customer experience of a crowded train with no open seats, and the bad customer experience of the only seats available being in a worn-out car.

Despite the problems adding a second car might cause, I think it is a good step for UTA to take in addressing its crowded trains problem. After all, they can only add one more comet car to every trainset before they run out of them; they don't have enough to add a third to every train. Once the FrontRunner people demonstrate to the UTA board that the second cars are also consistently full (or that they consistently don't work at the station platforms), the UTA board might finally give them funding to buy a few more Bombardier coaches. The platforms were designed to be expanded to handle 10 bombardier cars, so that will be less problematic than trying to accommodate more Comet cars.

The best solution would be to snap a finger and make the entire route double-tracked, then run short trains ever 10 minutes during peak hours. But it seems as though any double-tracking project will be small and slow, double tracking one station-pair at a time as funding becomes available. So longer trains are probably the best solution for the foreseeable future. It will be very interesting to see what solutions UTA is able to come up with for the Comet cars.
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  #6889  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2016, 8:37 PM
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The Comet cars are my preferred choice since the seats are just so dang comfortable and roomy. I like the idea of a pass-through the back comet car.
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  #6890  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2016, 8:43 PM
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Also, if UTA is already upgrading Wifi on the whole fleet of cars right now, why not just add in a few more comet cars?

UTA begins Wi-Fi upgrades on FrontRunner



Quote:
SALT LAKE CITY — Work on an upgraded Wi-Fi system for FrontRunner is now underway. The system will be tested on a single FrontRunner train consisting of cars 112, 111, 213 and 324.

The Utah Transit Authority notes that internet access may not be available on these cars as work is completed, and riders may see slower Wi-Fi service as they pass through the area between Woods Cross and North Temple stations, as signal towers in the area are converted to a new system.

Once the system has been tested on a single train, UTA will begin installation across the FrontRunner fleet. Installation is scheduled to start in late summer and continue through the fall.
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  #6891  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2016, 8:44 PM
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Does UTA still have these old Chicago Metra bi-level cars around? I'm not a daily FrontRunner rider anymore, but I used to notice them being stored on side tracks north of the Warm Springs facility. They looked really run-down and I never heard anything about what UTA's plans for them were:

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  #6892  
Old Posted Jun 7, 2016, 11:09 PM
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As far as I know, UTA scrapped all its Metra cars except for 2, which Union Pacific now keeps in its yard as mobile classrooms or something like that. UTA scrapped the cars because 1) they were so worn out that the cost of repairs was prohibitive compared to the comet cars and 2) they had the same problem as the comet cars, as the cars are accessed by steps with the same dimensions as the comet cars.



But many valuable pieces of the Metra cars live on in the comet cars, as UTA salvaged as many spare parts from the Metra ones as possible. It would have been really interesting, though, to see how Utahans would have taken to the gallery-type cars. They have such a weird, anachronistic design that makes no sense if you have no conductor asking for tickets.


Last edited by Hatman; Jun 9, 2016 at 5:36 PM. Reason: Correct Picture Link
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  #6893  
Old Posted Jun 9, 2016, 3:47 PM
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The 2016 Q1 ridership numbers are now out.

http://www.apta.com/resources/statistics/Documents/Ridership/2016-q1-ridership-APTA.PDF

The breakdown for the numbers follows:

Frontrunner - 16.1K daily. Up 2.86% year over year.
Trax - 62.4K daily. Down 1.64% year over year.
Bus - 74.7K daily. Up 0.22% year over year. The report displayed an incorrect value so I used their increase to get to the right numbers.

Total Riders for Q1 - 162.4K daily. Down 0.29% year over year.

Q2 number released this summer should hopefully show an increase in bus riders due to Prop 1 being passed and implemented in Weber and Davis Counties.

For rankings:

Frontrunner is #10 in the Country for Ridership.
Trax is also #10 in the Country for Ridership.

I know that UTA still has a goal of increasing ridership but I don't think they will hit their original 2020 goal of doubling ridership from 2014 numbers. It may still be possible but would need to drastically increase service and frequencies across the Wasatch Front to get there. At best, SL County with Prop 1 funds might get a 25% increase in ridership. This is based on the 33% average increase in riders for routes that had their frequencies increased to 15 minute or better.
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  #6894  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2016, 3:25 PM
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So yesterday was the big airshow, and the first time FrontRunner was open for business on a Sunday. I missed my chance to ride it and support Sunday service. Did anyone else go? If so, how was ridership?
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  #6895  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2016, 6:23 PM
arkhitektor arkhitektor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatman View Post
So yesterday was the big airshow, and the first time FrontRunner was open for business on a Sunday. I missed my chance to ride it and support Sunday service. Did anyone else go? If so, how was ridership?
The air show is next weekend. You can still make it!

http://www.hill.af.mil/warriorsoverthewasatch/
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  #6896  
Old Posted Jun 20, 2016, 9:56 PM
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Oh.



Well, that's good. There's time to get the word out. If you are a person who wants UTA to offer FrontRunner service on Sunday, be sure to 1) ride it this coming Sunday and 2) get on or off anywhere but Clearfield. That will prove to UTA that there is a demand for service.
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  #6897  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2016, 4:03 AM
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So it turns out that the Trax relocation at the rebuilt airport cannot be funded through the rebuild funds. Some idiot law was passed to prevent airport ticket charges from funding rail projects. So the cost- all $64 million- seems poised to fall entirely on UTA. So far they have already paid out $4 million for engineering/design work.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4037611-155/slc-seeks-65-million-project-to

I am shocked that this extension wasn't included in the total cost of the airport rebuild project. What a huge oversight. Roads around the airport get rebuilt no problem, but public transit needs to pay its own way from funds that otherwise could be used to increase bus service? Does anyone realize how many new routes UTA could offer for $64 million dollars?
This really 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.
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  #6898  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2016, 12:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hatman View Post
So it turns out that the Trax relocation at the rebuilt airport cannot be funded through the rebuild funds. Some idiot law was passed to prevent airport ticket charges from funding rail projects. So the cost- all $64 million- seems poised to fall entirely on UTA. So far they have already paid out $4 million for engineering/design work.

http://www.sltrib.com/news/4037611-155/slc-seeks-65-million-project-to

I am shocked that this extension wasn't included in the total cost of the airport rebuild project. What a huge oversight. Roads around the airport get rebuilt no problem, but public transit needs to pay its own way from funds that otherwise could be used to increase bus service? Does anyone realize how many new routes UTA could offer for $64 million dollars?
This really 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵.
That law isn't that old and they can possibly get it changed in the next session.

Is it not possible to use original 2007 expansion bonds for this project? As I recall, UTA was authorized to spend an additional $300 Million more than it did for the Frontline projects. They had a big celebration proclaiming $300 Million under budget and 2 or 3 years early.

My understanding (which could be wrong) is that until the bond for the project is 50% paid off, UTA can use/issue bonds for projects as long as they are part of the Frontline projects. As the Airport line was a part of the projects, it should qualify.

They can't issue bonds for service but could for construction. It is also why they couldn't use any of the funds for the S-line.

SLC can implement the additionaly 0.5% sales tax increase on Airport sales. This would help cover a significant portion of the costs over a 20/30 year cycle.

Or better yet, SLC can implement this completely within the city and expand Trax to the International Center, get the Downtown & Granary Streetcar lines going and also get dedicated city branded bus service with frequency levels and routes it desires. Any possible funding shortfalls could be remedied with TIF taxes on adjacent properties.
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  #6899  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2016, 5:34 PM
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While I understand the point you are making. The use of TIF would indicate that the nearby property owners are paying for the service up front and getting reimbursed from property tax over a period of time, from their increase in property value.

They could do a Special Assessment Area which would allow the City or UTA to pay the costs up front and collect a slightly higher tax amount from adjacent property owners over a period of time. This is what they did along N. Temple for the concrete embedded tracks along with the new sidewalks and landscaping. Each property owner was assessed and is paying back the portion, based on their percentage of frontage.

Many cities, I believe Salt Lake City is included have Special Assessment Areas in their Central Business Districts. Those funds to toward extra cleaning, landscaping and advertising that is done in relation to the area.
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  #6900  
Old Posted Jun 23, 2016, 6:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Future Mayor View Post
While I understand the point you are making. The use of TIF would indicate that the nearby property owners are paying for the service up front and getting reimbursed from property tax over a period of time, from their increase in property value.

They could do a Special Assessment Area which would allow the City or UTA to pay the costs up front and collect a slightly higher tax amount from adjacent property owners over a period of time. This is what they did along N. Temple for the concrete embedded tracks along with the new sidewalks and landscaping. Each property owner was assessed and is paying back the portion, based on their percentage of frontage.

Many cities, I believe Salt Lake City is included have Special Assessment Areas in their Central Business Districts. Those funds to toward extra cleaning, landscaping and advertising that is done in relation to the area.
That is what I meant. A special assessment area to improve transit options. I also think adding one to 4th South East of Main would be good as it could go directly to funding the Black Line which would further increase service levels along the street.
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