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  #1121  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2016, 7:47 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Originally Posted by nefc View Post
One subtle line this article I like:

Quote:
the market surge is not mostly based on local fundamentals, such as supply constraints, but rather on large flows of volatile international capital (and the bubble mentality it has generated)
Isn't that what we're dealing with? Yes, maybe it's a bubble, but aren't all bubbles based on a mentality? They're based on half-information, speculation, and most of all irrational fear. In other words, it's not sustainable, because, like a real soap bubble, it's based on empty imagined facts.

Remember, folks, although there are some factual evidence of foreign buyers, but those FEW facts are being blown into a [soap] bubble which has created a local sphere of influence affecting local buyers of real estate. Local buyers who ALREADY don't trust China, local buyers who live in a city in which it is difficult to tell local Asian-Canadians from foreign Asian-Canadians.

This too shall pass. For locals holding out near retirement, you'd be crazy not to list your place right now. Opportunities like this don't come around very often.
     
     
  #1122  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2016, 7:58 PM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Question ... and then

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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
One subtle line this article I like:
.....................................
Isn't that what we're dealing with? Yes, maybe it's a bubble, but aren't all bubbles based on a mentality? They're based on half-information, speculation, and most of all irrational fear. In other words, it's not sustainable, because, like a real soap bubble, it's based on empty imagined facts.
......................

This too shall pass. For locals holding out near retirement, you'd be crazy not to list your place right now. Opportunities like this don't come around very often.
How long do you think this "bubble" will last? Also, will it, in your opinion, diminish gradually, or rather "pop*?" Do you have an "après bubble" scenario you might share?
     
     
  #1123  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2016, 8:21 PM
twoNeurons twoNeurons is offline
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Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post
How long do you think this "bubble" will last? Also, will it, in your opinion, diminish gradually, or rather "pop*?" Do you have an "après bubble" scenario you might share?
That's the thing about bubbles, when you're inside one, you can't really get an idea of how big it is or how big it will get or even what it's made of.

If I were to guess, though, I wouldn't say any bubble would pop, it will just fizzle, like real estate in Canada has done before.

My point is more that we don't have enough information to know what kind of a situation we are in and there seems to be no effort to dig deeper and get the real story. It's just running on emotion.
     
     
  #1124  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2016, 9:04 PM
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
Soooo... lots of anecdotal stories here.

85% of my building are Asian!
90% of people lined up are Chinese!
75% of people in line came out of a tour bus!

Seems to me, the best way to separate facts from fiction is to simply publish the actual numbers. Or make all the data public as to HOW MUCH, WHO, and COUNTRY of origin.

And don't give me that BS that the data doesn't exist. The data is controlled by the RE industry, audited and filtered by the RE industry, and self-regulated by the RE industry.

Why, oh why, do we allow the RE industry ( turning into the biggest industry in the country ) to regulate itself, release its own numbers, and restrict access to data?

I have friends who used to work for the RE board office ( not as realtors ). They told me they would often get requests, even from Revenue Canada, about a property. They were instructed NOT to release data. Yes, you can get LOTS of data on the history of a property by paying a low fee ( per property ) through a realtor. I think it's something like $15, but no one can get access to the data feed itself. At least not in BC.

Surely, if foreign buyers were such an issue, there should be hard unfiltered data so that we can make an INFORMED decision, rather than rely on anecdotal evidence.

Surely, having this raw data available to independent data analysts is a vital and necessary tool to figure out what is REALLY going on.

Why has there been no push to get this data?

Why has there been no REAL effort to PROVE allegations, beyond anecdotal stories of rogue real estate agents counting Chinese surnames by hand?

Why don't we see hard numbers and breakdowns of sales of ALL properties sold in Greater Vancouver, or even the city of Vancouver?

Why don't we see ACTUAL house prices averages instead of the fudgeable house pricing index?

Without data, we have guesswork. And guesswork is open to interpretation, manipulation, and ultimately capitulation ( of the general public ).

It leads to FEAR of being overrun by foreigners.
It leads to UNCERTAINTY of what is actually going on.
It leads to DOUBT of anything any person says about the industry.

When you have FUD, you have the making of a perfect storm for SPECULATION.

The real estate industry does NOT want more regulation and scrutiny ( who does ) so they tow the line of whatever public opinion is. The public thinks that foreigners are buying all the real estate, and the RE industry simply go along with it.

It's much more comfortable to point the finger OUT than IN.

And to those that point to Australia as a shining example of restricting foreign ownership... prices went UP when they restricted ownership, not down.

Switzerland has high real estate ( and everything else ) because they have a VERY protectionist mindset. Swiss people have just 'accepted' that things are expensive in Switzerland... because they're somehow more special. However, it's known that the protectionist policies had led to higher prices in general... and it's a part of their Swiss identity, almost a point of pride.

It's like how Canadians beam with pride about a "FREE" medical system, even though introducing a % of co-pay ( even if only for those over a certain income threshold ) would make the system more efficient, more sustainable, and less wasteful.

Anyway, the POINT is that protectionism RARELY leads to the outcome that you expect, especially when based on public sentiment and anecdotal stories.

Think about it, without hard data, we're SPECULATING about how much SPECULATION there is in the market. How crazy is that?


And as for the "Vancouver's land is constrained! We have no room for more houses! We can't build any more land!" arguments, I suspect people who say that don't REALLY understand what constrained supply really means. There's PLENTY of stock out there, and plenty of land to build upon. Sure, the city of Vancouver doesn't have much greenfield land left, but even in Vancouver, there's plenty of room, plenty of infill and PLENTY of teardowns.

We ARE in an odd place right now where you have very little stock on the market. Why? When prices are skyrocketing so quickly, why would you be in a rush to sell? Greed takes over. You want to wait just ONE more month, to sell at a higher price. Many people are afraid of selling. THAT is the only supply and demand issue we're seeing. A real estate agent friend of mine told me that there is a surprising dearth of work for most agents and that it's not easy to get them. This only adds to the paranoia.

I'll finish with another story. My parents recently sold their SFH in Cloverdale in a desireable convenient location to downsize and become mortgage free. Got WAY more than they expected. Had a few offers from a variety of people. One Asian family ( raised in Vancouver type ) sent a lowball offer. In the end, It was on the market for 3 weeks and the ultimate buyer... a truck driver. White. Single. late 30s. Moved in with his parents. So much for China buying up Metro Vancouver.
You seem to be all over both sides of the issue.

You answer your own question when you ask "Surely, if foreign buyers were such an issue, there should be hard unfiltered data so that we can make an INFORMED decision, rather than rely on anecdotal evidence.?" and yet just before you have (used an anecdote) to show that those in the real estate industry have no interest or desire to provide that data. Hint: when groups won't provide the data, they usually have something to hide.

Are you trying to claim that posters have said "Chinese buyers are buying all of Metro Vancouver"? I haven't seen anybody claim that. However the anecdote of your parents' SFH shows what the downstream effect of middle class buyers being pushed farther and farther out is. The trickle down doesn't end with the run up in West Side house prices, it merely begins there.

And you know, if everyone has an "anecdote" there's a pretty good chance there's a fact behind it.
     
     
  #1125  
Old Posted Jun 10, 2016, 11:57 PM
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Originally Posted by giallo View Post
A new series by Vice about the real estate mania in Metro Vancouver.
I somewhat dislike Vice videos since they always have a biased point-of-view that they have decided on ahead of time, but these two were okay. They should have just mentioned Vancouver's mayor having also flipped his previous house for a good profit, showing the hypocrisy of these people. Now he came out as a caring benefactor of the common man - as if he isn't also part of the problem!

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Originally Posted by cornholio View Post
In my case healthcare is significantly worse in Canada, education has also been going down hill in Canada and I would confidently say is worse then my original country, crime rates murder rates are higher in Canada, inequality is significantly higher, infrastructure is significantly worse in Canada, and you have less freedoms in Canada in compassion to my home country (not the case for some with some other EU countries).
I don't know which country you are comparing to, but at least in my home country Finland (a poster child country to many) things are not nearly as shiny as people think. In reality healthcare and especially elderly care are appalling and also the formerly excellent public school system has started crumbling with the constant financing cuts that have been going on since the mid-90s. Our former top PISA scores are already history (as well as our AAA credit rating) and we are heading the same way as Sweden in many regards.

Crime, while currently not prevalent, is on the rise (especially in the past year), but still less than Canada (which isn't crime-ridden country itself either). Living standards for normal people in Finland are low, as salaries are low and taxes very high. People drive with cars that are on average 10 years or older. Housing in many cities is very expensive and what the money will buy you is much smaller and fancy than in here.

In my personal experience the standard of living in Canada is much better at least for people with higher education and employment is much better. So Canada definitely has lots of factors drawing in people, but some users on this forum just like to paint a picture of poor and backwards Canada. I am sorry to tell you, but the grass is not greener almost anywhere else.
     
     
  #1126  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2016, 12:14 AM
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I sometimes wonder if there would be more willpower by the provincial goverment to do the right thing in this matter, if Vancouver would be the provincial capital and the politicians would have to suffer the same pain as we do? Now they are isolated on their little island capital and even though Victoria also has high housing prices, Vancouver is the epitome of this problem.
     
     
  #1127  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2016, 12:59 AM
Pinion Pinion is offline
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Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
I'll finish with another story. My parents recently sold their SFH in Cloverdale in a desireable convenient location to downsize and become mortgage free. Got WAY more than they expected. Had a few offers from a variety of people. One Asian family ( raised in Vancouver type ) sent a lowball offer. In the end, It was on the market for 3 weeks and the ultimate buyer... a truck driver. White. Single. late 30s. Moved in with his parents. So much for China buying up Metro Vancouver.
Bold part explains why it wasn't a Chinese couple.

The reason there isn't stats is because it would create major racial tension. As long as there's no data then people like you can inexplicably still deny it.

My job involves meeting a lot of people in their homes and IMO if anything the city is even more new immigrant Chinese than most think, at least in Vancouver proper and Burnaby. I have trouble believing they are a minority.
     
     
  #1128  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2016, 3:44 AM
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Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
I sometimes wonder if there would be more willpower by the provincial goverment to do the right thing in this matter, if Vancouver would be the provincial capital and the politicians would have to suffer the same pain as we do? Now they are isolated on their little island capital and even though Victoria also has high housing prices, Vancouver is the epitome of this problem.
Older Canadians who own properties all benefit greatly from price increases of the past 15 years. I don't think any of the MLAs in Victoria are Millennials struggling to make their first downpayment. Many older locals secretly want this housing trend to continue, because an investment property is their guarantee to a comfortable retirement.

Notice in the videos above, only young people are interviewed, and that is very skewed. Ohh Greg Robertson too, but he has to say "nice things" to get re-elected. He sold his Point Grey home for more than 2 million I believe. I'm sure he wouldn't question where the buyer got the 2 mil from.
     
     
  #1129  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2016, 4:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twoNeurons View Post
I'll finish with another story. My parents recently sold their SFH in Cloverdale in a desireable convenient location to downsize and become mortgage free. Got WAY more than they expected. Had a few offers from a variety of people. One Asian family ( raised in Vancouver type ) sent a lowball offer. In the end, It was on the market for 3 weeks and the ultimate buyer... a truck driver. White. Single. late 30s. Moved in with his parents. So much for China buying up Metro Vancouver.
Bold part explains why it wasn't a Chinese couple.
Thank you for the mental image of a PRC tai-tai being told that she and the family have to live in the "middle of nowhere" (for them).
     
     
  #1130  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2016, 3:29 PM
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I've mentioned this a few times, but never really heard a valid response. Detached home prices in the Fraser Valley (Surrey, Langley, Abbottsford,etc.) are rising at an astronomical rate...

Quote:
The MLS® HPI benchmark price of a Fraser Valley single family detached home in May was $834,200, an increase of
38.3 per cent compared to May 2015 when it was $603,100.
Even Abbottsford, which is not even in Metro Vancouver, is rising at an incredible rate. Meanwhile, home prices are rising at normal or below normal rates across the rest of the country...

Quote:
Over the course of a single month, the benchmark price of a detached home in Abbotsford rose an astounding 7.1 per cent – or $40,000 – to $614,900, according to the Fraser Valley Real Estate Board (FVREB).

Only four months ago, that home price passed the $500,000 mark, and over the past year, the benchmark price has risen 32 per cent – or $140,000.
So somebody explain to me how rich Chinese buying up property in Vancouver are causing these dramatic price increases in the Fraser Valley, where there are no rich Chinese bidding up prices.

One explanation I've heard people use is that it's a ripple effect. That the people cashing out in Vancouver are moving to other areas of the Metro. But so what. What difference does make if people from the City of Vancouver or Calgary, or wherever are moving to areas in the Fraser Valley. That's just normal population growth. Something that every other major city in Canada is experiencing. Calgary, for example, takes in as many new residents as Vancouver, and Calgary has half the population of the Lower Mainland. Home prices have risen 1.1% over 1 year in Calgary. Same story in other cities across Canada that are growing at the same (proportional) rate as Vancouver. So what makes Vancouver so different? There's no way a handful of rich Chinese are skewing up prices in places as far away as Abbottsford.

The only logical explanation is Metro Vancouver's extreme land constraints.

Whatnext or whoever, tell me how my above logic is flawed. Or can you?

http://globalnews.ca/news/2624064/ive-ne...ns-in-fraser-valley-now-rival-vancouver/
http://www.fvreb.bc.ca/statistics/Package%20201605.pdf
     
     
  #1131  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2016, 3:42 PM
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Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
There's no way a handful of rich Chinese are skewing up prices in places as far away as Abbottsford.
I think the ripple effect is largely to blame. I have in the recent years met with many people that have had to move to Abbotsford and even beyond and do commute to Metro Vancouver, even Downtown Vancouver which ridiculously far.

Keep in mind also that it is not just a handful of rich Chinese making an Exit-plan for their money. There are over 5 million millionaires in China (and growing), more than there is people in BC. And they are currently moving over 1 trillion dollars out of China a year. Even though only a fraction of that is being hidden (invested) in BC, it is still a lot. Definitely not just a handful.
     
     
  #1132  
Old Posted Jun 11, 2016, 4:08 PM
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I presume you lived in Helsinki, where housing costs are similar to Vancouver, so what's the difference between the 2 cities? There's no Chinese money flowing into Helsinki.

http://www.numbeo.com/property-investmen...=Helsinki&tracking=getDispatchComparison
     
     
  #1133  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2016, 6:40 AM
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China CITIC Bank Corp Ltd has launched a Canadian lawsuit to try to seize the assets of a Chinese citizen the bank claims took out a multi-million dollar loan in China then fled to Canada, the lender's Vancouver-based lawyer said on Monday.

The bank is looking to seize numerous Vancouver-area homes, valued at some C$7.3 million ($5.58 million), along with other assets, according to the lawsuit, which was filed in the Supreme Court of British Columbia in Vancouver on June 24.

The defendant, Shibiao Yan, owns three multi-million dollar properties in a Vancouver suburb and resides in a C$3 million Vancouver home owned by his wife, according to court documents....


http://www.reuters.com/article/canada-china-court-idUSL1N19J1TT
     
     
  #1134  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2016, 2:10 PM
Caliplanner1 Caliplanner1 is offline
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Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
I don't know which country you are comparing to, but at least in my home country Finland (a poster child country to many) things are not nearly as shiny as people think. In reality healthcare and especially elderly care are appalling and also the formerly excellent public school system has started crumbling with the constant financing cuts that have been going on since the mid-90s. Our former top PISA scores are already history (as well as our AAA credit rating) and we are heading the same way as Sweden in many regards.

Crime, while currently not prevalent, is on the rise (especially in the past year), but still less than Canada (which isn't crime-ridden country itself either). Living standards for normal people in Finland are low, as salaries are low and taxes very high. People drive with cars that are on average 10 years or older. Housing in many cities is very expensive and what the money will buy you is much smaller and fancy than in here.

In my personal experience the standard of living in Canada is much better at least for people with higher education and employment is much better. So Canada definitely has lots of factors drawing in people, but some users on this forum just like to paint a picture of poor and backwards Canada. I am sorry to tell you, but the grass is not greener almost anywhere else.
Klazu, It's only a matter of time before Finland's/Sweden's negative realities of social decay is seen more widely in Canada as the post Cold War global economy rushes to embrace U.S. styled capitalism/extreme individualism etc. (where chaotic consumer wants trumps rational social needs).
     
     
  #1135  
Old Posted Jun 28, 2016, 7:00 PM
logicbomb logicbomb is online now
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Originally Posted by whatnext View Post
China CITIC Bank Corp Ltd has launched a Canadian lawsuit to try to seize the assets of a Chinese citizen the bank claims took out a multi-million dollar loan in China then fled to Canada, the lender's Vancouver-based lawyer said on Monday.

The bank is looking to seize numerous Vancouver-area homes, valued at some C$7.3 million ($5.58 million), along with other assets, according to the lawsuit, which was filed in the Supreme Court of British Columbia in Vancouver on June 24.

The defendant, Shibiao Yan, owns three multi-million dollar properties in a Vancouver suburb and resides in a C$3 million Vancouver home owned by his wife, according to court documents....


http://www.reuters.com/article/canada-china-court-idUSL1N19J1TT
It’s been normalized. There’s less and less outrage over the unethical practices in our real estate market. People are reaping the rewards of the status quo or accepting fate and just high-tailing it out of here…Remember an estimated 68% of Vancouverites own a home in Vancouver and it would be asinine to expect them to vote against their own interest.

There's no hope for society moving forward. The whole premise behind the Brexit movement instills no confidence moving forward. I called it though, and I think irrational fears and societal wants will see Trump win the election in November. Make no mistake, I have no qualms when it comes to immigration if there are regulations in place, but do have a complete disdain for foreign capital that enters our border with much resistance. The xenophobia and racism is a smokescreen from the true issue which is neoliberalism and unregulated capitalism…Ultimately you have the majority of homeowners here turning a blind-eye to all this and labeling those who see an issue with “foreign investors” a racist. Yet they conveniently cry foul and spit out racist remarks over refugees or TFW’s.

I continue to tell people to just move out of BC if they don't have enough saved up to buy a home. There's a growing sentiment that 2016 is the last year for first time home-buyers earning less than 60k a year to breakthrough in Metro Vancouver especially with looming mortgage restrictions. My friend who is a mortgage broker has seen an influx of panicking millennials trying to be pre-approved for anything deemed inhabitable right now, and yes, this includes those who have no savings and sub 30k a year job. Needless to say, he just straight up tells them to move to another province.
     
     
  #1136  
Old Posted Jun 29, 2016, 5:14 AM
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Originally Posted by logicbomb View Post
It’s been normalized. There’s less and less outrage over the unethical practices in our real estate market. People are reaping the rewards of the status quo or accepting fate and just high-tailing it out of here…Remember an estimated 68% of Vancouverites own a home in Vancouver and it would be asinine to expect them to vote against their own interest.

There's no hope for society moving forward. The whole premise behind the Brexit movement instills no confidence moving forward. I called it though, and I think irrational fears and societal wants will see Trump win the election in November. Make no mistake, I have no qualms when it comes to immigration if there are regulations in place, but do have a complete disdain for foreign capital that enters our border with much resistance. The xenophobia and racism is a smokescreen from the true issue which is neoliberalism and unregulated capitalism…Ultimately you have the majority of homeowners here turning a blind-eye to all this and labeling those who see an issue with “foreign investors” a racist. Yet they conveniently cry foul and spit out racist remarks over refugees or TFW’s.

I continue to tell people to just move out of BC if they don't have enough saved up to buy a home. There's a growing sentiment that 2016 is the last year for first time home-buyers earning less than 60k a year to breakthrough in Metro Vancouver especially with looming mortgage restrictions. My friend who is a mortgage broker has seen an influx of panicking millennials trying to be pre-approved for anything deemed inhabitable right now, and yes, this includes those who have no savings and sub 30k a year job. Needless to say, he just straight up tells them to move to another province.
The province of BC does not equal the lower mainland. Vancouver is landlocked and there is now land available for growth. That is not the case in many other BC communities.
     
     
  #1137  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2016, 6:55 PM
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Great article in the UK's Guardian about the unaffordability caused by the outflow of money from China. And the best thing is the interviews with those who are being negatively impacted are with Canadians of Chinese descent. There is way too much assumption that all "Asians" are rich and don't have the same problems finding a home as everyone else.

... Over the past year, the price of a single family house in Vancouver increased by an incredible 30%, to an average of $1.4m. It’s just the latest, most dramatic jump in an already dramatic long-term trend that has turned the beautiful but unassuming Canadian city into one of the world’s least affordable, with a housing price-to-income ratio of 10.8. That’s third after Hong Kong and Sydney, and well ahead of London, which ranks eighth at 8.5. Driving the rise is an unprecedented flood of foreign capital, mainly from China. “What you have is a huge pool of very wealthy people who want to hedge against uncertainty back home,” says Thomas Davidoff, a real estate economist at the University of British Columbia (UBC). ..

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2016/...tish-columbia?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Gmail
     
     
  #1138  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2016, 7:41 PM
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The province has released their first 19 days of data related to foreigner housing purchases.

https://pricetags.wordpress.com/2016/07/07/provincial-data-on-foreign-nationals-property-purchases/

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-co...te-foreign-home-ownership-data-1.3668460

Approximately 5% of properties in Metro Van are going to foreigners. About 4 in 5 are Chinese buyers. Richmond and Burnaby are both over 10%.

The data also doesn't include people under the immigrant investor programs since they are usually PR Status.

So, are we seeing 20-30% of Richmond and Burnaby owned by foreigners and immigrant investors? People earning money elsewhere and inflating our market?
     
     
  #1139  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2016, 7:48 PM
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Worth noting this data is based on a purely voluntary checkbox on a form with no oversight.
     
     
  #1140  
Old Posted Jul 7, 2016, 7:49 PM
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De Jong said it's a legally binding question on the registration, people answering falsely may be charged and fined.

No idea on the likelihood of that though.
     
     
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