Winnipeg | True North Square | U/C

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by Cyro

Hmm, It's interesting how the discussion in downtown development is slowly changing? Un-charted territory here, morals of for profit companies and entities being questioned now. The Richardson's having a 50% stake in this development, private for-profit companies are becoming involved and they should be chastised for the effort?


Surprise, Center Point was developed by them to lose money? That was a pretty bold leap on their part to launch and complete that particular development.( yes, Shed/TIFF financing involved). Should they be accountable for what other private investors are doing in the core...

Originally Posted by TimeFadesAway

I don't think that Cory is chastising TN per se. I think that his ire is more focused on those who paint TN as this great benevolent entity that is here to serve all of us.

There's nothing wrong with TN trying to make a profit and offering a better product than someone else. What is wrong (incorrect, not morally wrong) is to pretend that TN is interested in downtown as anything other than a side effect of them making a profit. I don't think TN is trying to pretend to be anything they aren't, but others sure are.

Sorry for the double quote.

My issue is not with True North, Longboat or anyone else making money in a private for profit company but rather that the Chipman associated companies heavily leveraged the return of the NHL to get heavy concessions from the NDP government to support their downtown development including VLT revenue, approval for a privately owned mini-casino and the creation of a special tax zone (the SHED) similar to an urban reserve which generates much hate in the public. But since Chipman brought back the NHL his companies can do no wrong in the public eye.

From a sustainable downtown perspective does it make sense to have most of the high rent paying offices relocating into a special tax zone that seemingly benefits a single for profit company?

It isn't so much a criticism of True North Square directly but rather some of the wider government policies which seem to be enabling it

The question is basically this, if we changed out True North, et all and the TIFF backed SHED for a treaty owned urban reserve with the same buildings, locations and special concessions would people's opinions change? (I think they would).

[bomberjet]

When people here urban reserve, they think Shamattawa in downtown. When that's not the case at all. That's the biggest hurdle to get over on that front. Anyways, slightly off topic.

[esquire]

^ In fairness, the MTS Centre's subsidies and the SHED TIF were set up in hopes of triggering exactly this sort of development. We're getting what we asked for.

A reasonable amount of development is good... i.e. incremental amounts of office and residential space that takes advantage of overall growth downtown. What is more troubling is a massive project that effectively acts as a vacuum, drawing in existing people and businesses from all over downtown.

I wouldn't say that TNS is at that point yet, though. It's still probably a sustainable amount of space even if it leads to higher than normal vacancies in the short term.

[bomberjet]

Hopefully TNSE can shed some light in the near future on who and where all these interested parties are from. Even though I love huge buildings and cool developments. Sacrifcing the rest of downtown is a no go for me. But you're right Esquire, we're getting exactly what the City has planned for. Hoping most of teh interest is coming from out of Province. Or local companies expanding their presence downtown.

Maybe some of these parties will move from suburban properties to downtown? I would rather have an office in Tuxedo sitting empty that one downtown.

[Bdog]

Originally Posted by CoryB

The question is basically this, if we changed out True North, et all and the TIFF backed SHED for a treaty owned urban reserve with the same buildings, locations and special concessions would people's opinions change? (I think they would).

Or to take that a step further, give a company all the concessions you mentioned, like TIF, VLTs, Shark Club, Entertainment tax refund, etc. etc. and swap out "True North/ Longboat" for say, "Shindico"...

[windypeg]

Lots of downtown tenants will probably like the idea of staying the same neighbourhood but getting brand new digs. But it's not like 201 portage or whoever else loses out is just gonna sit still, they'll spruce up a bit and try to be more competitive. Artis is already on it. Downtown as a whole will be better in the long run and who knows, maybe more out of province companies will actually start to think of downtown Winnipeg as a decent place to do business

[robertocarlos]

Originally Posted by windypeg

Lots of downtown tenants will probably like the idea of staying the same neighbourhood but getting brand new digs. But it's not like 201 portage or whoever else loses out is just gonna sit still, they'll spruce up a bit and try to be more competitive. Artis is already on it. Downtown as a whole will be better in the long run and who knows, maybe more out of province companies will actually start to think of downtown Winnipeg as a decent place to do business

How can Artis compete? Their crappy digs are 30 years old and the rent is the same as the rent at TNSE. Where would you rent?

[Biff]

^^^ I have to say that Artis has done a lot over the last few years improving their building at 360 Main. 306 Main for the most part is like a brand new building inside. They have pushed energy efficiency in their building and will now have a new envelope to essentially create a new building overall.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by robertocarlos

How can Artis compete? Their crappy digs are 30 years old and the rent is the same as the rent at TNSE. Where would you rent?

The funny thing is that it's probably the tenants who do more to contribute to 360 Main's outdated image than anything else. As Biff pointed out, Artis has improved the common areas quite nicely, and the recladding will take that to the next level. It's not until you step off the elevator and into the tenant spaces that you get transported back to 1991.

But that said, Artis and other P&M owners will still be losing at least a few top-tier tenants who'd otherwise be taking space in their buildings. To make up for that, tenants in the B-tier buildings will be induced to move up, then the C-tier occupants go up to B. Once the musical chairs end, you'll likely see smaller and older buildings (small postwar office blocks like the ones in the pic I posted previously, or unrenovated Exchange District buildings, that sort of thing) with a lot more vacancy.

[bomberjet]

For most office buildings the tenants will reno entire floors when they move in. And if the building owner keeps up with maintenance and updates on the common spaces, the only old pieces left over are the building structure and some of the main utilities. Even then those can be replaced if wanted/needed. Especially if the exterior is being replaced. 300/360 Main seems like it will be fairly modern.

201 Portage is of course stuck in the green and salmon era. Haven't been in the Richardson building itself lately. But I was in the smaller office building of theirs on the east end of the complex and it's ollld. I would expect no different for the rest of it.

[esquire]

^ Richardson Building is actually not bad. The late 60s modernist look has aged well, the building is well kept, and the tenant spaces are generally no different than what you see in 360 Main and 201 Portage. I've been in some law and accounting firm offices in the Richardson and to me it seems like a top-tier building. I recall hearing that they were having a tough time drawing new tenants but I can't see why that's the case.

[bomberjet]

^That's good to hear about the condition. The offices I've been in seem rather drab and dated. Both common spaces and tenant space.

[CoryB]

Just wanted to point out to long time readers here my concerns on the TIFF backed SHED and the relationship between Chipman and Bowman predate both True North Square and Bowman's election to mayor. Is it hard to overlook the parallels to Shindleman and Katz.

[esquire]

^ The city has done a fair bit to assist Longboat but that began mainly under Katz. Selinger's NDP was also heavily involved with ongoing subsidies for MTS Centre. Things have more or less just continued under Bowman's watch... recall that Chipman and Bowman aren't exactly besties. It doesn't seem like the same kind of relationship as Katz/Shindleman.

[CoryB]

^^ Keep in mind Bowman was invited to a private revealing of True North Square by Chipman after a Jets game. That is definitely a different relationship than Chipman and Katz had.

[windypeg]

I may be a conspiracy theorist but I think the whole Chipman/Bowman kerfluffle was engineered specifically to make it look like there was no collusion or favoritism prior to TNS being announced

[esquire]

Originally Posted by windypeg

I may be a conspiracy theorist but I think the whole Chipman/Bowman kerfluffle was engineered specifically to make it look like there was no collusion or favoritism prior to TNS being announced

TNS was in the making for years before Bowman became mayor... I don't honestly see how this can be pinned on Bowman.

I don't feel too badly about Longboat getting TIF money for TNS because the TIF is accessible to any developer. This isn't like the exclusive deals that Shindico got.

[bomberjet]

The City set-up the TIF zone and all that stuff during the Katz era. TN comes along on an expression of interest from MPI. They win. They're spending $400M private dollars minus government incentives. Whats the issue with that? They're playing by the rules the government has set-up. We all talk about spending other peoples money. If someone here on SSP has the means to build one of these, go right ahead!!!

[Tacheguy]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Just wanted to point out to long time readers here my concerns on the TIFF backed SHED and the relationship between Chipman and Bowman predate both True North Square and Bowman's election to mayor. Is it hard to overlook the parallels to Shindleman and Katz.

When it comes to public policy outcomes I just don't see the comparison.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Tacheguy

When it comes to public policy outcomes I just don't see the comparison.

Yep. Longboat has actually contributed something positive to the public realm (MTS Centre, TNS) while Shindico serves up the worst kind of strip mall/power centre garbage.

There's a reason the TIF was set up the way it was... it's specifically to incent the kind of projects that TNSE/Longboat have led.

I just don't see much validity in the criticism of TNSE/Longboat. Aren't they doing what we've wanted a developer to do for over 2 decades?