PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[1487]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

How does NY manage not to make every other cross street a dumpster parking lot? Surely the generate much more garabage their, yet it is less evident on the downtown streets.

Somehow, I think there must be better solutions in practice in several other (cleaner) cities, but we are so used to the notion of using our side streets - or even legit streets like Sansom Street - as fetid dumpster alleys that we can't imagine otherwise. Strange.

every other center city street is a dumpster alley? first Ive heard of this. larger buildings tend to have compactors located in loading docks or underground, if there is an underground dock or garage. Obviously smaller buildings that receive deliveries to back doors and do not have off street loading areas are a different story.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by 1487

every other center city street is a dumpster alley? first Ive heard of this. larger buildings tend to have compactors located in loading docks or underground, if there is an underground dock or garage. Obviously smaller buildings that receive deliveries to back doors and do not have off street loading areas are a different story.

For example, if you walk down 17th Street - starting from, say, Arch the dumpster streets in order are: Cuthbert, Ludlow, Ranstead, Ionic, Moravian, Chancellor...and that's only to about Walnut Street. Once you get to the more residential areas south of Locust - the "alley" or mid-block streets are obviously fully residential.

[br323206]

Originally Posted by Londonee

For example, if you walk down 17th Street - starting from, say, Arch the dumpster streets in order are: Cuthbert, Ludlow, Ranstead, Ionic, Moravian, Chancellor...and that's only to about Walnut Street. Once you get to the more residential areas south of Locust - the "alley" or mid-block streets are obviously fully residential.

It's a stretch to call those streets. They're service alleys. They are lined by the backs of buildings. No one in their right mind would want to walk down them.

I'm 100% in favor of trying to rid streets like Drury and Sansom of dumpsters, but again, how do we do that? I know McGillin's is working toward getting those businesses on Drury to cooperate and clean up their act. Maybe that'll establish a model for other blocks.

[br323206]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

How does NY manage not to make every other cross street a dumpster parking lot? Surely the generate much more garabage their, yet it is less evident on the downtown streets.

Somehow, I think there must be better solutions in practice in several other (cleaner) cities, but we are so used to the notion of using our side streets - or even legit streets like Sansom Street - as fetid dumpster alleys that we can't imagine otherwise. Strange.

We must be visiting a different NY. There is trash everywhere in NY. But the dumpster comparison doesn't make sense. Most NY buildings don't back up to a publicly accessible street or alley. They can put the dumpsters behind their buildings and you'll never see them. Our street grid just doesn't allow that. To replicate NY we would need to close off alleys like Ionic and just have those alleys be dumpster areas.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by br323206

It's a stretch to call those streets. They're service alleys. They are lined by the backs of buildings. No one in their right mind would want to walk down them.

I'm 100% in favor of trying to rid streets like Drury and Sansom of dumpsters, but again, how do we do that? I know McGillin's is working toward getting those businesses on Drury to cooperate and clean up their act. Maybe that'll establish a model for other blocks.

Right, but outside of the core business district those streets are actually contributing, functioning blocks. For example, this is Cuthbert Street in Old City: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.951188,-...ih7JqOWskfORNsuUbKsxw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I think Cro's point is that if Midtown-Manhattan - the densest square blocks in the country - doesn't have the need for alley streets - could we find another solution for Center City - which ultimately would free up those streets and return them back to pedestrian usefulness?

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by br323206

It's a stretch to call those streets. They're service alleys. They are lined by the backs of buildings. No one in their right mind would want to walk down them.

You must see this is tautological thinking: Yuck, these alleys are disgusting and lined with dumpsters; no one in their right mind would walk down these streets; since no one uses them, hey, why not use them as dumpster alleys? Yuck, these alleys are disgusting and lined with dumpsters; no one in their right mind would walk down these streets. Repeat ad infinitum. This called locked-in-place thinking, which seems to be the norm for a couple posters around here. Things have always been done this way, no outside idea could possibly exist that would present a better solution.

I'm 100% in favor of trying to rid streets like Drury and Sansom of dumpsters, but again, how do we do that?

Your question is the point of my earlier post. We think we can do that, but how? Well, start with not reinventing the wheel: check out what other dense old cities have successfully done. Melbourne, London, Tokyo . . . . innumerable dense cities with intelligently used tiny streets (here, we conveniently call them "service alleys" to justify their use as trash receptacles and to excuse the City's ineptness at planning) in commercial areas that magically are not lined with dumpsters, and that actually add significantly to the street life of the city.

Melbourne:
http://www.asherworldturns.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/IMG_1799.jpg

London, Artillary Passage (intelligenty used alley in a notorious one-time slum)


http://blog.iamnikon.com/en_GB/wp-content/uploads/artillery-passage-spitalfields-nikon_0063.jpg


How do they do it? I have no idea. But they do, which makes me think we should be able to do better in this city too. But to begin to think about that we'd have first get rid of the ingrained "but we can't, this is how it's always been done here, and it's fine" Philly mindset.

It would likely be possible to use many of our alleys similarly, but it takes an open mind, curiosity, creativity, and a willingness to recognize that preconceived notions are simply notions, not immutable laws chiseled into granite mountainsides.

Recall, people said the smoking ban would kill the Philly bar scene. That never happened. Now most bars would not want smoking back. We could do the same with our alleys: property owners would bitch and moan about the futility, the lack of practicality. But once they saw how their property skyrocketed in value by being part of a previously inconceivable vital street scene on a street where nobody in their right mind once would have dared venture, then they'd never want to go back to the old way.

It takes vision, intelligence, will, leadership, all of which are in desperately short supply in Philly city government. Queue 1487.

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I think Cro's point is that if Midtown-Manhattan - the densest square blocks in the country - doesn't have the need for alley streets - could we find another solution for Center City?

That is exactly my point.

We - well, not "we", really, but the City "planners" (for lack of a better term), whoever they are, and the "policy" (for lack of a better term) makers - just need to break out of the reptilian myopia. I know, stop laughing. Don't rupture your gut. We're talking about Darrell Clarke and Jim Kenney, after all.

[allovertown]

Originally Posted by br323206

We must be visiting a different NY. There is trash everywhere in NY. But the dumpster comparison doesn't make sense. Most NY buildings don't back up to a publicly accessible street or alley. They can put the dumpsters behind their buildings and you'll never see them. Our street grid just doesn't allow that. To replicate NY we would need to close off alleys like Ionic and just have those alleys be dumpster areas.

Haha I was about to say. Not exactly hard to find an alleyway of dumpsters in Manhattan.

One solution for streets like Sansom where getting rid of dumpsters would be worthwhile is more frequent trash pickups which I know they do in the densest parts of other cities. It eliminates the need for a dumpster.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

That is exactly my point.

We - well, not "we", really, but the City "planners" (for lack of a better term), whoever they are, and the "policy" (for lack of a better term) makers - just need to break out of the reptilian myopia. I know, stop laughing. Don't rupture your gut. We're talking about Darrell Clarke and Jim Kenney, after all.

There was an interesting New Yorker article from a few year's ago that spoke to Manhattan's inefficient commercial collection system due to the fact that every building could contract with whatever 3rd party collector they wanted to. The result is a highly inefficient, uncoordinated mass of thousands of trucks from dozens of companies - with route overlaps - creating congestion, pollution, etc. The residential system run by the City, according to the article, is 5-times more efficient than the private, commercial system. Philly is structured identically.

Other cities like Seattle and LA have divided their core CBD's into large zones that are each handled by 1 contractor - a much more efficient and cleaner approach (though there are some obvious downsides).

http://www.newyorker.com/business/currency/a-better-way-to-take-out-the-garbage

[br323206]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Right, but outside of the core business district those streets are actually contributing, functioning blocks. For example, this is Cuthbert Street in Old City: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.951188,-...ih7JqOWskfORNsuUbKsxw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I think Cro's point is that if Midtown-Manhattan - the densest square blocks in the country - doesn't have the need for alley streets - could we find another solution for Center City - which ultimately would free up those streets and return them back to pedestrian usefulness?

Absolutely, those streets are great and very functioning places in residential areas with smaller scale buildings. There is no need for them to be service alleys.

But my point is that Manhattan blocks are much larger than our blocks and most of them have interior closed off space where the backs of the buildings and dumpsters are. If you want to mimic Manhattan the result would be to strike a street like Ionic from the grid all together and cede that space to the buildings for their dumpsters. Then you block it off and we'd never see them. Put another way: There are dumpsters behind the buildings in Manhattan, you just don't have access to that space.

And there are definitely lots of dumpster alleys that you CAN see in Manhattan too.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by allovertown

Haha I was about to say. Not exactly hard to find an alleyway of dumpsters in Manhattan.

One solution for streets like Sansom where getting rid of dumpsters would be worthwhile is more frequent trash pickups which I know they do in the densest parts of other cities. It eliminates the need for a dumpster.

Where in midtown manhattan are these block-long dumpster streets/alleys?

[br323206]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

You must see this is tautological thinking: Yuck, these alleys are disgusting and lined with dumpsters; no one in their right mind would walk down these streets; since no one uses them, hey, why not use them as dumpster alleys? Yuck, these alleys are disgusting and lined with dumpsters; no one in their right mind would walk down these streets. Repeat ad infinitum. This called locked-in-place thinking, which seems to be the norm for a couple posters around here. Things have always been done this way, no outside idea could possibly exist that would present a better solution.

No. They are not pleasant places to walk because they are lined by the BACK OF BUILDINGS. That's why they are appropriate for dumpsters. But if you take out all the dumpsters and clean them up they are still not even close to being pleasant places to walk. The alleys that back up to the backs of buildings in Manhattan, Chicago, etc. also have dumpsters and no one walks there either. There just aren't that many in midtown, as I said, because they have interior space for dumpsters due to larger blocks.

Also, those are some great examples of smaller streets that are very pleasant in those cities. The thing is, we also have some great small streets here in Philly--and I can definitely find you some dumpster alleys in those cities too. I'm not sure what you're railing against here. The fact that a few Center City alleys have dumpsters in them seems to me like the least important of problems we have. I just hate this comparison to some mythical version of New York, or wherever else you want to imagine has no unpleasant alleys or streets.

[br323206]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Where in midtown manhattan are these block-long dumpster streets/alleys?

See how the backs of the buildings don't face a public street? They have dumpsters behind them. There is essentially an "alley" back there but you can't see it or access it except through the buildings. We could do this here by striking streets like Ionic from the grid and blocking them up, but why? What would it accomplishment except to allow us to pretend that there are no dumpsters?

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Midtow...081d6cfdb!8m2!3d40.7549309!4d-73.9840195

[br323206]

Originally Posted by Cro Burnham

How do they do it? I have no idea. But they do, which makes me think we should be able to do better in this city too. But to begin to think about that we'd have first get rid of the ingrained "but we can't, this is how it's always been done here, and it's fine" Philly mindset.

It would likely be possible to use many of our alleys similarly, but it takes an open mind, curiosity, creativity, and a willingness to recognize that preconceived notions are simply notions, not immutable laws chiseled into granite mountainsides.

Recall, people said the smoking ban would kill the Philly bar scene. That never happened. Now most bars would not want smoking back. We could do the same with our alleys: property owners would bitch and moan about the futility, the lack of practicality. But once they saw how their property skyrocketed in value by being part of a previously inconceivable vital street scene on a street where nobody in their right mind once would have dared venture, then they'd never want to go back to the old way.

It takes vision, intelligence, will, leadership, all of which are in desperately short supply in Philly city government. Queue 1487.

You used Melbourne as an example. Here is another alley in Melbourne:

https://www.google.com/maps/@-37.8140761...OPAgG3v0F49BQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656!6m1!1e1

And here is one in Philly:

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.9474917,...4aZMhNeqZA7IlCm8rcKbQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Yes, if you cherry pick you can make the argument that Philly is some backwards place because we have dumpster alleys. But I can also do the opposite. It's silly.

[3rd&Brown]

Originally Posted by cro burnham

How does NY manage not to make every other cross street a dumpster parking lot? Surely the generate much more garabage their, yet it is less evident on the downtown streets.

Somehow, I think there must be better solutions in practice in several other (cleaner) cities, but we are so used to the notion of using our side streets - or even legit streets like Sansom Street - as fetid dumpster alleys that we can't imagine otherwise. Strange.

WTF are you talking about?

NY is even worse than here. There are no dumpsters because there are no alleys. Instead, the trash gets PILED high in translucent bags that are thrown on the sidewalks in front of buildings EVERY SINGLE NIGHT.

I work on Spring Street in Soho. After 5PM every night the block my office building is on is literally a wall of trash bags. Most around it are as well.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Londonee

For example, if you walk down 17th Street - starting from, say, Arch the dumpster streets in order are: Cuthbert, Ludlow, Ranstead, Ionic, Moravian, Chancellor...and that's only to about Walnut Street. Once you get to the more residential areas south of Locust - the "alley" or mid-block streets are obviously fully residential.

aside from sansom those are mostly barely passable alleys and some are dead ends.

[1487]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Right, but outside of the core business district those streets are actually contributing, functioning blocks. For example, this is Cuthbert Street in Old City: https://www.google.com/maps/@39.951188,-...ih7JqOWskfORNsuUbKsxw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

I think Cro's point is that if Midtown-Manhattan - the densest square blocks in the country - doesn't have the need for alley streets - could we find another solution for Center City - which ultimately would free up those streets and return them back to pedestrian usefulness?

Where is the trash in Manhattan? Im not hearing a statement of their solution and how it would apply here. Or are we saying they don't generate trash from buildings in NYC?

[1487]

Originally Posted by 3rd&Brown

WTF are you talking about?

NY is even worse than here. There are no dumpsters because there are no alleys. Instead, the trash gets PILED high in translucent bags that are thrown on the sidewalks in front of buildings EVERY SINGLE NIGHT.

I work on Spring Street in Soho. After 5PM every night the block my office building is on is literally a wall of trash bags. Most around it are as well.

I'm sure he knows WAY more about NYC trash than you do. Come on now....

[iheartphilly]

What's with all this "trash" talk. It's just disgusting!

[Cro Burnham]

Originally Posted by br323206

No. They are not pleasant places to walk because they are lined by the BACK OF BUILDINGS. That's why they are appropriate for dumpsters. But if you take out all the dumpsters and clean them up they are still not even close to being pleasant places to walk.

Please don't compare Philly's commercial alleys with Melbourne's. It's just ridiculous.

The cool, active alleys in those other cities were once just like our own - backs of buildings, lined with dumpsters, filled with slime. Just takes some vision to do it differently.

https://www.theurbanist.org/2015/09/17/m...-revitalization-of-city-laneways-part-2/

https://www.broadsheet.com.au/melbourne/...eways-bars-cafes-restaurants-six-degrees

http://www.sightline.org/2011/08/26/alley-alley-in-come-free-2/

It has been demonstrated repeatedly in competently-planned cities around the world that backs of buildings need not be dumps and can be transformed in to walkable, commercially active places relatively free of garbage and stench.

Just takes a little vision and some will. Again, let's learn from places that do it better. If that's not NYC, fine. Pick any of the many other cities that do it much better than Philly.

The info is so readily accessible, Googlable, at our fingertips.

Some of you are so knee-jerk reactive - I really don't get it. Other places just do this a lot better. It's simple. There are much better ways of dealing with side streets, alleys, garbage storage, than we have here. If you have the chance to travel, you see this is so very obvious. Why be so insecure about that? Why defend a pretty stupid way of doing things? This is a great opportunity. Yet rather than learn from people who do it better, some of you hold your ears like a 5 year old and say "I'm not listening, I'm not listening". The right way of dealing with it is to think: hmmm, they do it better. Imagine how much better Philly could be if we could implement such great ideas here. We can and we should.

The Reading Viaduct is a great example of this, as is bikeshare. The idea didn't originate here, but we can implement it, in some ways we may be able to outshine some of the cities whose ideas we adopt.