Northeast False Creek | Proposed

[Migrant_Coconut]

Here's another. Again, grass is optional.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Vision's modus operandi for a park is turning the entire site into a giant lawn bordered by trees, no buildings at all. And that usually turns into a useless, rained-out marsh and/or goose turd repository for four fifths of the year. Seeing as we already have a dozen of the latter along the seawall and none of the former, that's a pretty big waste of potential for False Creek.

Is it? The most recent parks downtown I can think of are George Wainborn and Emery Barnes, neither of which resemble your statement. Likewise the new proposed downtown park doesn't do that either.

Your version of a place without plants and trees is more like a public plaza, which I support as well. We have great new ones at Olympic Village and near the Olympic torch.

I agree with what other posters have indicated, which is parks form a necessary outdoor space in dense urban environments. They (along with community centres) also help us foster physical activity and community, which are both important for life long health and happiness.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Is it? The most recent parks downtown I can think of are George Wainborn and Emery Barnes, neither of which resemble your statement. Likewise the new proposed downtown park doesn't do that either.

These parks?




While that's a beautiful reflecting pool in Wainborn, I'm afraid that's part of my argument. Both are mostly grass surrounded by trees. Albeit with a lot of concrete and a water feature (which is a good thing), but it's still a green space flanked by buildings, rather than a mix of the two.

If the plan is to convert the entire space under Cambie Bridge and south of the Viaducts into a park like these, then forgive me for sounding like a broken record, but that would be redundant and unnecessary. Some space, absolutely, but most of those areas would be better off as retail zoning - something you don't see much of along the seawall.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Your version of a place without plants and trees is more like a public plaza, which I support as well. We have great new ones at Olympic Village and near the Olympic torch.

I agree with what other posters have indicated, which is parks form a necessary outdoor space in dense urban environments. They (along with community centres) also help us foster physical activity and community, which are both important for life long health and happiness.

Less of a plaza, more of a pedestrian street. Despite the NIMBYs, the English Bay Cactus Club got built, and it's only enhanced that part of Sunset Beach.



Ditto the Olympic Village Tap and Barrel. Imagine an entire row of mixed-use apartments, restaurants, bars, cafes, stores, clubs and theatres (maybe a museum or cinema) in the same style from one end of Cambie Bridge to the other...

[cornholio]

Migrant Coconut. Where are you originally from if I might ask? I do believe it is important to the discussion.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Born and raised in Vancouver... sorry, did I do something wrong?

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Migrant Coconut. Where are you originally from if I might ask? I do believe it is important to the discussion.

why would that be important? his ideas with the walks flanked by restaurants are great and where he is from has no baring on the ideas and renders he has provided.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

why would that be important? his ideas with the walks flanked by restaurants are great and where he is from has no baring on the ideas and renders he has provided.

Thanks for the vote of confidence, but it might've been partly my fault too. Got carried away when I said "mixed-use apartments all along East False Creek," which is a hyperbole at best; the Vancouverites who usually advocate such plans are immigrants from more crowded cities (which is true for my family, if not me) and PRC developers (which isn't).

Let me try again.

First, Vision's "vision" for the city usually means that every developed lot turns into either a park or a mid/high-rise condo.
Grouped low-rise commercial space is a third option that isn't considered often. Much of the food & beverage, retail and entertainment outside of Downtown is scattered all over the place to service individual blocks, and rarely concentrated in one high-traffic/desirable area where it can attract large crowds (Granville Island, for example).

Second: ever since we lost Theatre Row, there's been a slow, steady rumble for a second entertainment district, preferably near the stadiums. It's not going to be International Village, since most of those empty lots are being zoned for condos and the new school; as it is, it's often deserted late at night when the Canucks aren't playing and we don't have any musicians in town. Planning some low-rise commercial space - plus a cineplex, museum, or a few theatres - south of the Viaducts beside the seawall could create such a district.

Third: given that most days in the Pacific Northwest resemble today and yesterday (cold/cloudy/wet/etc), our parks - lawn, plaza, fountain and all - remain nearly empty for a large part of the year. Nighttime too, because people don't usually exercise or play after sundown. Even on sunny days, I've yet to see the large crowds displayed in the thread on a normal day - not without a public event going on. The geese defecating everywhere aren't helping.
Expanding Creekside north to connect to David Lam sounds reasonable, but I really don't see any of the seawall parks reaching capacity (1 person/25 sqm?) within any of our lifetimes.

Don't get me wrong - I think parks are great, and that the ones we have now are part of what makes Vancouver beautiful; I just don't see the need for yet another one by the seawall. Not when there's already a dozen of them (each a 10-15 walk from another) along False Creek, and not when the site could be put to a better use.

[BobLoblawsLawBlog]

Adding some roofs over the park could help, along with something to keep the damn geese away.

Shadbolt Centre in Burnaby's grass is always covered in geese dropings since the lawn is right next to water. It really ruins it because you can't walk or lie down without getting poop on yourself. It seems like there is nothing you can do about it though.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

why would that be important? his ideas with the walks flanked by restaurants are great and where he is from has no baring on the ideas and renders he has provided.

Because it makes a difference in what a person considers normal / pleasant. My wife is born and raised right dab in the center of Sao Paulo, her understanding of pleasant is very different from mine. I did not expect the "born and raised in Vancouver answer" but I guess it is so. I think it would do him some good to live in cities with no parks or open free spaces in that case. Spend a year or two in the middle of Sao Paulo and he will be begging for some non over crowded open park space to get away from the mass of humanity, noise, and over stimulation. Promenades are great, they can be built in conjunction with developments but they don't server the same purpose as open park space.

The key though is once you develop the land you cant exactly turn it back in to open space / park land in the future and certainly not and significantly large open space / parkland where you can actually get away from the street grid and developments.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by cornholio

Spend a year or two in the middle of Sao Paulo and he will be begging for some non over crowded open park space to get away from the mass of humanity, noise, and over stimulation.

Yeah, I probably would be - that photo you posted gives me a slight headache just looking at it. But again, Argentinian cities face the problem of too many people in too little space; Canada faces the problem of too much space and too few people. My mother often complains about the opposite of what your wife complains about: how the city is practically a ghost town half the time, compared to Singapore. Having spent a couple years there, I feel the island's city planners do a pretty good job of balancing green space with the need to develop; by contrast, Vancouver (even downtown) sometimes feels empty, like it's still a podunk with delusions of grandeur. Where's our Orchard Road, our Times Square, our beating heart?

Either we build townhouses or monolithic high-rise condos, or halt them entirely and plant gardens. Nothing in between.

Like I said, open green spaces are good. I'm in favour of the one at 4th & Fir, and the one at Smithe & Richards, and potentially expanding Creekside (in its current width) up to connect to David Lam. Inland. The seawall has enough beautiful parks as it is, at 1km intervals from one another - what it needs east of Cambie Bridge is a bit of low/mid-rise commercial density (maybe a plaza or two) to complement and sustain our expanding downtown core, rather than castrate it.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Like I said, open green spaces are good. I'm in favour of the one at 4th & Fir, and the one at Smithe & Richards, and potentially expanding Creekside (in its current width) up to connect to David Lam. Inland. The seawall has enough beautiful parks as it is, at 1km intervals from one another - what it needs east of Cambie Bridge is a bit of low/mid-rise commercial density (maybe a plaza or two) to complement and sustain our expanding downtown core, rather than castrate it.

The combination of the viaducts coming down and the Plaza of Nations going away should provide an excellent plaza on the water at what will be the new foot of Georgia St.

Just so we are clear on the official proposal, it looks like this:



from SEFC ODP

Hardly too-much park space IMO.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

I'm not "defending myself" from anything, just pointing out your ludicrous proof of your idiotic statements. I'll happily take some pictures this weekend to prove you wrong.

Yes, please do. I would love to see them.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Hahaha even if you move a few metres over on Vin's own link there are tons of people in the park:

https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.2731698,-...aX-owRkbzp9lQ9ePxwujA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

It's almost like sometimes parks are busy and sometimes they aren't!

Hey Vin, sometimes the airport is quiet, should we close that too??

Did I ever say that the current parks should be closed? I merely said that there shouldn't be such a huge new one placed at the northeast part of Falsecreek since there are so many in existence, with many underutilised.

Like you said, sometimes parks are busy and sometimes not, but to say that they are crowded (by some forumers that I was countering) is an over-statement, or even a hyperbole.

Haha funny thing is that the mob mentality can get pretty interesting here........

Originally Posted by BCPhil

I think that's a bit of hyperbole of his argument. I don't think he is saying anything about removing parks, just saying we are not in dire need of more by pointing out that they are rarely, if ever, at maximum capacity. The only counter to that troll was an equally opposite troll showing the park packed during an event.

Even a google image search of David Lam park returns no images of the park being busy outside of Jazz fest. If someone has a picture of the park being "rammed" on a Tuesday at 2pm, please share.

Just to show how much an effect weather has on parks, here is David Lam a few years ago during Jazz Fest, a great event that should draw out thousands of people.


credit: me

I think the argument is we are going to tear down road infrastructure that is useful every single day or not build much needed housing so we can build a park that might have more than a couple people in it less than 5% of the hours of the year?

I'm not exaggerating either. Only about 22% of all hours (1938 hours) of the year are "Sunny". Many of those hours fall during working hours of weekdays (there are 2080 hours of work in a year) and during colder winter days (when the fields are wet and soggy) when parks are never going to be fully busy. So really, what percentage of the year are parks in downtown Vancouver maxed out?

To compare, we have about 6 hours of rush hour a day in Vancouver. For just weekdays that's 1560 hours a year. So around 17% of all hours in the year, the Viaducts are busy (not counting when they are busy on weekends or busier for longer due to events).

And is being at maximum capacity at some point preventable or even a bad thing? Roads are busy at rush hour; restaurants are busy at dinner time; movie theaters are busy on Saturday nights; parks are busy on Sunday afternoons. Sometimes meeting maximum demand is unsustainable. Just because people wait for tables at a restaurant doesn't mean the economy could support more restaurants. Just because I can't see a movie at 7pm Saturday doesn't mean there needs to be 20 more theaters. Just because I can't play Frisbee in a park on the first weekend in July doesn't mean we need more parks.

Thank you sir!

[Vin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Is it? The most recent parks downtown I can think of are George Wainborn and Emery Barnes, neither of which resemble your statement. Likewise the new proposed downtown park doesn't do that either.

Your version of a place without plants and trees is more like a public plaza, which I support as well. We have great new ones at Olympic Village and near the Olympic torch.

I agree with what other posters have indicated, which is parks form a necessary outdoor space in dense urban environments. They (along with community centres) also help us foster physical activity and community, which are both important for life long health and happiness.

You understand that our original conversation was about the need to have a new grass field park at the northeast corner of Falsecreek right? Others are suggesting that instead of that, the City should look into better usage of the waterfront with better year-round amenities and services that can actually benefit the people living there. There is already a big field next to it by Science World, and with the new grass park added to the new Concert development (The Creek), I don't see why there is such a dire need for another big grass field.

Originally Posted by cornholio

Migrant Coconut. Where are you originally from if I might ask? I do believe it is important to the discussion.

You sound like Trump asking for Obama's birth cert.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

from SEFC ODP

Hardly too-much park space IMO.

Most of those parks are already there, and that's fine. Keep it at that level, is what I'm saying. That soccer field might be better off as stores, restaurants (which are pretty scarce along the seawall), a Cineplex or even the new Art Gallery. The seawall is one of our most scenic, high traffic areas, yet currently it's tailored exclusively to recreation and sightseeing - not a bad thing, but it wouldn't hurt to attract lunch/dinner crowds, shoppers, moviegoers, clubbers, art snobs and the rest of the city.


Same for the Northeast area (which is what my "castrating our expanding downtown" referred to.



Vancouver's urban core is slowly growing south to Broadway and east to Main. Three giant, under-utilized parks cutting right through the middle of that growth sounds like a castration to me.

If Vision's going to spend $200 million to knock the viaducts down, then a few more million on top of that for soil remediation couldn't hurt. After that, the proposed entertainment district on the left could easily be expanded past Carrall with low-rise commercial up to the blue circle, eventually blending with the east half of the Creekside extension (which will still be the size of George Wainborn Park). You guys get the grassy fields, I get a retail promenade, everybody wins.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Vin

You sound like Trump asking for Obama's birth cert.

Vin, you're not helping. Cornholio's already explained his reasoning.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Vin, you're not helping. Cornholio's already explained his reasoning.

I don't get why people stereotype others, that people born and raised here should think a certain way, and their perception of what is pleasant or unpleasant should lord over others. As for your preference for more mixed use along false Creek, that's somehow construed as very "un-Vancouver".

By the way, I was at David Lam park today, once at 11am and then just now arohnd 2pm, and guess how "crowded" it was? Virtually empty! Yup, great sunny warm weather out there....

[Vin]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Vin, you're not helping. Cornholio's already explained his reasoning.

I don't get why people stereotype others, that people born and raised here should think a certain way, and their perception of what is pleasant or unpleasant should lord over others. As for your preference for more mixed use along false Creek, that's somehow construed as very "un-Vancouver". Isn't this place supposed to be about diversity, including opinions?

By the way, I was at David Lam park today, once at 11am and then just now arohnd 2pm, and guess how "crowded" it was? Virtually empty! Yup, great sunny warm weather out there....

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Vin

I don't get why people stereotype others, that people born and raised here should think a certain way, and their perception of what is pleasant or unpleasant should lord over others. As for your preference for more mixed use along false Creek, that's somehow construed as very "un-Vancouver". Isn't this place supposed to be about diversity, including opinions?

By the way, I was at David Lam park today, once at 11am and then just now arohnd 2pm, and guess how "crowded" it was? Virtually empty! Yup, great sunny warm weather out there....

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Vin

I don't get why people stereotype others, that people born and raised here should think a certain way, and their perception of what is pleasant or unpleasant should lord over others. As for your preference for more mixed use along false Creek, that's somehow construed as very "un-Vancouver". Isn't this place supposed to be about diversity, including opinions?

By the way, I was at David Lam park today, once at 11am and then just now arohnd 2pm, and guess how "crowded" it was? Virtually empty! Yup, great sunny warm weather out there....

I'm sure you took some pictures right? To back up your statements? I've lived in Yaletown on and off for 17 years, and David Lam has consistently gotten busier. They used to have organized events there (soccer, ultimate, etc.) I don't think any leagues can use it anymore because it's too popular in the community and not fair to take it over for hours on a summer weekend.

That said, I was cycling by Creekside last night:



Then went to Granville Island today: