Edmonton Construction 13 (November 2015)

[CMD UW]

Originally Posted by 240glt

It was pretty rough over there 15 years ago. Used to ride my bike through there all the time from the bike path that went around the Stampede grounds. It was pretty sketchy.

What it didn't have was the acres of surface lots and dilapidated buildings.. Or at least not nearly as many as the Quarters downtown. I agree the Quarters faces some serious challenges to get off the ground

The major deterrent being landownership is fragmented and that the City has already given 'density rights' to these properties which makes assembling land difficult and costly. The City should have assembled these lands PRIOR to bringing forth the new redevelopment plan and upzoning. They could have sold off assembled and serviced parcels to developers. This is how the CMLC did East Village.

[canucklehead2]

Watching this thread devolve into a catty slugfest reminds me why I have quietly transitioned from active participant to polite lurker over the last 18 years… Next time just give me a quick heads up so I can have the popcorn ready before y'all to have at it.

Anyway, my unwanted 2c on the sitch?

As a nearly 20-year resident of Montrose and an employee of a very large local non-profit in the area, I do have a lot of ponies in this race, if you know what I mean. I have seen the gradual fall of the Highlands/Montrose business district and its sluggish resurgence as of late. Yes, the city building a new shiny Danish Playmobil-block library helped, however the area is still plagued by what most people would refer to as "undesirable" businesses. Montrose needs another liquor store, pawn shop, "relaxation centre" or half-way house as much I need another neo-nazi Twitter troll to call me, "a cucked liberal f*ggot."

Having said that, please for the love of god, STFU, with all the hypocritical NIMBY bullsh*t that seems to plague Alberta politics, especially as of late.

I hate when I see folks drone about "those places" or "those people" when it comes to these situations as if its always some foreign irritant bothering their sensible little world.

Wake up folks. Guess who has the disposable income for such businesses to flourish. It ain't your old 93-year-old pensioner neighbour or even the college student taking the bus to Grant Mac. It's the people who work a good job and live in a safe, comfortable, suburban areas with security alarms and surveillance cameras.

Oh sure it's fine and dandy for ole Richy Rich to come down to 118 Avenue for a couple bottles of booze and a rub & tub, that's cool. But the moment one of these so-called undesirable businesses sets up shop where he lives, nope, sorry.

We might as well substitute liquor store for affordable housing/infill narrow homes/rub & tug parlours/halfway houses/____ immigrants in this debate as the reaction is always the same.

Living in a city as big as Edmonton you are going to have to accept certain things about it. Traffic snarls in Yellowhead, the smell of yeast from the Brewery on Calgary Trail, and yes Adult stores, massage clinics and quite possibly cannabis dispensaries come 2017.

Ghettoizing all these things in my area because you don't like them or don't use them is just plain ignorant and doesn't really serve to make Edmonton a better place on ANY level. Oh sure maybe for the select few with finances deep enough to keep team of lawyers on retainer. But just like a kid pushing his canned peas around on a plate, moving crap around from place to place doesn't make it disappear. It just makes it someone else's problem. And I dunno about you but I could certainly use a break from finding used needles and condoms in my alley…

You truly want to make Edmonton a better place? First off, stop pushing problems into areas like mine and deal with them like a grown up. The city should allow businesses to set up whenever there is demand for their goods or services provided the zoning is at least reasonably appropriate.

If this leads to Source Adult at Albany, Diamonds on Jasper or Beyond Paradise @ Ellerslie. So what!

We live in a modern, tolerant and plural society. Don't want a happy ending? Don't go to a Rub & Tug. If you are all for free-market capitalism you should allow a business to either succeed or fail based on its own merits and probably doesn't need your or my worthless opinion as part of the equation in any way.


And yes, while I applaud so-called "concerned citizens" to express their opinion in a respectful and appropriate manner and certainly applaud people who get involved for the betterment of their communities don't ever forget that "We is just as important as Me…"

If you want to truly make a difference, call the city and make it crack down on the things that truly make a difference to the ambience of an area, I.e. tacky roll-away signs, vinyl wraps on glass walls, broken concrete, litter-bugs, noisy vehicles, blank walls, pedestrian dead-zones. Unfortunately the city does seem to be a big enabler of at least two of these modern nuisances.

If you got this far without scrolling past, thanks for reading. Or not. Don't really care either way, TBH, but after holding my tongue for quite a few years it does feel good to vent now and again… Now let the next round begin!

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by GreenSPACE

That is factually inaccurate. While developers bear the cost of new greenfields initially, their long term costs outweigh the tax revenue generated. Low density mature neighbourhoods also don't pull their weight, but at least the infrastructure is already there, and don't require further expansion of freeways, overpasses, policing, rec centres etc. Those are all costs to taxpayers.

The infrastructure is not there.

http://www.metronews.ca/news/edmonton/20...-upgrades-come-with-2-4-billion-tab.html

We're spending 2.4B to upgrade drainage in old neighborhoods to a standard that is normal in new development. Should that cost be born by all taxpayers?

Did that existing single family lot in some prime desirable mature area pay for recreation levies at the time of the development agreement in the 1920's? nope.

Was the city expansion that required a 2nd police station, 2nd fire hall, 2nd school etc paid for by the homeowners in the area that required it at the time that area was developed, no. neither did the third, fourth, fifth, etc, so what makes 2016 so special that we now decide to change the way these things are funded.

The new Calgary plan to address the expansion of the sanitary system is a perfect example. Historically, my understanding is the expansion of sanitary systems in new developments have been paid for by the city. this has been paid for by either taxes or utility fees.....I don't know. But now, the developer (with costs passed on to the homeowner) has to pay this costs. That's fine, but the homeowner in the new neighborhood is paying for not only the new expansion which is completely reasonable, but they are also contributing (through taxes or utility fees) at the same rate as the guy who developed in 2015. They're paying twice! Sure, the sanitary example is a minor costs in the grand scheme, but add on the same logic for water, storm, transportation, recreation, now maybe schools, police, fire etc.....its a very un equal way of paying for these

Look, it's as simple as this. Does it really matter if the expansion of infrastructure is paid upfront at the time of servicing or over the years through taxes and fees? It's getting paid for one way or the other. What I (and I guess the development industry) are saying is that by getting more and more of those costs up front you are being highly punitive to new development and it is extremely inequitable.

If we were starting a city from scratch it would be easy. You pay for the costs of the expansions required to service your property. Boom, everybody is happy. High costs up front, lower taxes later. But were not doing that. Were arbitrarily and inequitably distributing those upfront costs while essentially all living under a tax scheme that does not recognize that different areas of the city paid for the expansion of services under a different model.

Many people might have various reason to not like suburban development, despite my enthusiasm for it I wouldn't live in a new neighborhood. But to dislike it because you think it is costly is not a fair reason.

[Hallsy's Toupee]

Are there too many liquor stores? I'd say "yes" in some areas.

Oliver seems to have a lot. Just along Jasper Ave going west: liquor store in Save-On strip mall, liquor store next to the Macs at 113 St, wine shop at 115 St, liquor store at 116 St next to Husky, liquor store at 118 St next to OTR, 1 or 2 liquor stores at 121 St. There's 2 liquors in Oliver Square (east of Safeway + west of London Drugs), another in the strip mall across 104 Ave, another at 105 Ave/123 St. There's one kitty-corner from Save-On next to that 7-11. The separation between liquor stores is supposed to be 500m, but some of these must be pushing it. And let's be honest, although competition is good, not all of them are quality establishments.

As for the lack of liquor stores NE of downtown, as 240 alluded to, the riff-raff factor is obviously a much bigger issue, which has likely frightened away liquor store owners. How does a liquor store proprietor manage that issue? Having more than 2 employees at all times? Not selling the cheap knockoff beer? Security guards?

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by canucklehead2

You truly want to make Edmonton a better place? !

The problem is that there are very few people like Coldrsx and Greenspace who genuinely care about making Edmonton a better place.

A few years ago I would have considered myself somebody who wanted to make this city better. But now, in my 30's, married, trying to start a family, I find myself caring less and less about making the city better. I feel like a dick for saying it, but I guess I'm just part of the vast majority whose level of caring drops substantially for things beyond their front door. life changes, priorities change, responsibilities change. I get what your saying canuck, kudos to those who are in it for a bigger reason than themselves, but I just cant do it that way anymore.

[Coldrsx]

Awe

Multitask my friend.

[Makenosmallplans]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

The problem is that there are very few people like Coldrsx and Greenspace who genuinely care about making Edmonton a better place.

A few years ago I would have considered myself somebody who wanted to make this city better. But now, in my 30's, married, trying to start a family, I find myself caring less and less about making the city better. I feel like a dick for saying it, but I guess I'm just part of the vast majority whose level of caring drops substantially for things beyond their front door. life changes, priorities change, responsibilities change.

And those things may change again... and again. thinking back to my thirties with small children at home i remember exactly what you mean. hence i also don't begrudge anyone's choice as to where they choose to live. but i think you underestimate your will to make the city better... or you wouldn't express an opinion.

[Mikemike]

Your world shifts when you have a family. You priorities change. What a "better" city looks like to you changes. But please, never stop caring about your city. Express it by caring about your home, your neighbourhood.

I have kids, and so I have neither the time or the money to frequent cafes and bistros. Maybe a couple times a year, but I'm thankful for the suckers who keep them in business. instead, I spend time at playgrounds, and in the river valley. I care about safe streets, and safe neighbourhoods. And not just for me, for everybody.

And I want this to be a city that my kids don't leave as soon as they're grown, so I want it not to suck. That means those things that don't matter to me DO matter to me.

[CMD UW]

Originally Posted by Makenosmallplans

And those things may change again... and again. thinking back to my thirties with small children at home i remember exactly what you mean. hence i also don't begrudge anyone's choice as to where they choose to live. but i think you underestimate your will to make the city better... or you wouldn't express an opinion.

I agree, it's easy to get 'caught up' with your own life and find there seems to be less time to worry about some of the other things. That being said, as someone who is busy with my own personal and professional life, I still try to make this city a better place. Having a child of my own has motivated me to want to improve the city for him. I am fortunate that I am able to do this through my profession and by volunteering on committees that are associated with impacting the city. I also find myself visiting more of the city's great venues such as the zoo, farmers markets, ice castles, Telus World Science, parks, etc, etc.

[Mikemike]

New infrastructure will be old one day.

The city will fix it.

Old-time developers also built the best new infrastructure they could, it just happened to include clay-tile pipe. You don't know yet what might be wrong with the neighbourhoods getting built now, but there will be something. I can already see that they will be more expensive to provide with transit than most mature neighbourhoods.

[240glt]

Originally Posted by canucklehead2

If you want to truly make a difference, call the city and make it crack down on the things that truly make a difference to the ambience of an area, I.e. tacky roll-away signs, vinyl wraps on glass walls, broken concrete, litter-bugs, noisy vehicles, blank walls, pedestrian dead-zones. Unfortunately the city does seem to be a big enabler of at least two of these modern nuisances.

..delinquent landlords, dilapidated properties, criminal activity.. I've got my gold star; a subpoena, associated hassles and a bunch of wasted time.

Truly making a difference takes more than a phone call and sometimes it takes a lot more drastic action than that. I'm extremely proud to be one of the catalysts for meaningful change and despite the PITA I'd do it all over again. It's what it took for the city to wake up, take notice, take out the trash and make some people accountable. That all happened because some of us stuck our necks out.

So excuse me if I'm just a little jaded and bitter because I've put my ass on the line for my community and it's cost me time, money and a lot more personal investment than a phone call. And I do blame the city for a large portion of that due to it's lack of coordination, accountability and deferred responsibility.

That's changing, as noted in the article about the MGA changes. Those changes are coming and I am glad to have been one of the catalysts for that change

[240glt]

the riff-raff factor is obviously a much bigger issue, which has likely frightened away liquor store owners

LOL. you don't get around much. Liquor stores are NEVER frightened away. That is absolutely not the reason the liquor stores closed in the area. One closed due to a redevelopment of the property and the other was swallowed up by a next door retailer

[McBoo]

Originally Posted by SHOFEAR

The problem is that there are very few people like Coldrsx and Greenspace who genuinely care about making Edmonton a better place.

And the rest of us don't care? Seriously? And this is a peer reviewed scientific fact?

To quote Ian, "wow."

[Hallsy's Toupee]

^^ Then why hasn't more of them opened up in the area if there's a lack of them? Just curious.

[Coldrsx]

Healy on hold due to Alberta 'uncertainty', argh.

[240glt]

Originally Posted by Hallsy's Toupee

^^ Then why hasn't more of them opened up in the area if there's a lack of them? Just curious.

Because up until 18 months ago there were three of them, and that was the maximum concentration allowed within that area. Over the years a few companies tried to open one in the little strip mall where Stadium Pizza is but they were always rejected due to proximity to adjacent stores and the ravine. Now this one falls outside the park restriction and is much further away than 600M from any adjacent liquor store

[Hallsy's Toupee]

Originally Posted by McBoo

And the rest of us don't? Seriously? And this is a peer reviewed scientific fact?

To quote Ian, "wow."

Perhaps the difference is that while most of us have some involvement in city affairs, others take it much further to the point of being public figures.

Cold, Green, kcantor, 240 and others get involved with community leagues, spearhead initiatives (e.g. new downtown park) and hobnob with the movers and shakers. The rest of us get involved on a much smaller scale, may it be contacting 311, tweeting the Mayor, sending an email to your City Councilor, or hitting up the occasional public meeting, though things like that are not unimportant.

[Coldrsx]

^the important thing is to do what you can to make positive, meaningful and impactful change. Join your community league, go to the COE planning school, report activity that is destroying neighbourhoods, organize planning nights at the pub etc. It is as simple as going to meet your neighbours.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by Mikemike

New infrastructure will be old one day.

The city will fix it.

Old-time developers also built the best new infrastructure they could, it just happened to include clay-tile pipe. You don't know yet what might be wrong with the neighbourhoods getting built now, but there will be something. I can already see that they will be more expensive to provide with transit than most mature neighbourhoods.

Sure it will. Standards, materials and construction techniques will get better. But again, we can all accept that this will happen and accept that you will pay for things beyond your neighborhoods borders because at some point somebody is going to be paying for something in your neighborhood.

I happen to prefer to live in a system where we are not forcing an affordable $290,000 starter duplex to all of a sudden cost $315,000 because the municipality has passed down a bunch of costs to the person servicing a subdivision. providing housing to lower income brackets is a lot more attainable when those costs are recouped over the years with taxes than upfront and need to qualify for an extra $25,000 on a mortgage.

Its rather bizarre how the people who care the most about affordable housing are the same that want to punish newly serviced housing products.

[SHOFEAR]

Originally Posted by Makenosmallplans

And those things may change again... and again. thinking back to my thirties with small children at home i remember exactly what you mean. hence i also don't begrudge anyone's choice as to where they choose to live. but i think you underestimate your will to make the city better... or you wouldn't express an opinion.

Don't get me wrong I still do, but it is a much stronger focus on working on community efforts that some how benefit myself rather than the community at large.