Arbutus: Greenway & Future Streetcar | Proposed

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Because people keep pointing to Portland and go "we want what Portland has". But Portland's light rail and street cars are doing incredibly poorly.

Arbutus may be a Segregated ROW, but that doesn't make it any less expensive than any other LRT to operate, or the idea of running anything mixed with pedestrians any less bone-headed.

http://www.vancourier.com/opinion/streetcar-desired-for-arbutus-corridor-lands-1.2197593 via
https://pricetags.wordpress.com/2016/03/18/streetcar-desired/

And here we go with wanting to run street cars in mixed traffic.

TriMet is not doing incredibly poorly. Portland has one of the highest transit mode shares in the US (8 cities have higher) and the MAX has the 5th highest ridership among US light rail networks (behind Boston, LA, SF, and SD). Not bad stats for a city that is way down at 24th most populated metro.

And I can't find any stories about any deaths attributed to the Portland Streetcar. Like I said, in 2 years of operating their expanded 2 loops, they've had 4 accidents with pedestrians or bikes.

And again, what's the point of your linked articles? It's just some other people's odd opinions. I don't know if Gordon Price as ever left Vancouver, because, speaking as someone who has lived at White Rock Beach, it is nothing like how he described it.

First, the tracks are completely separated by a fence from the path or by a steep incline up to the tracks. There are only 5 points that cross the tracks. Second, the freight trains actually go fairly fast. Are they flying like on the mainlines? No, but I believe the speed limit is 30mph. It is deceptive how fast they go, that's why people get killed. People think they have time to pose for selfies on the tracks with the train coming up behind them (which I have seen multiple times). All they need is a controlled gate at the main crossing and most of the accidents wouldn't happen. Without the gate, people think they can get really close for pics, or that they have time to cross last minute. Like these girls (and dude, watch to the end!):

• Video Link

That's kind of typical. Doesn't happen all the time, but I see it frequently when I'm there in the summer. You haven't hear a train whistle until you hear the panic blast from a BNSF because some guy is walking on the tracks straight at the train.

But mainly, these are heavy rail trains we are talking about; the kinds of trains that take a mile to stop. Not really streetcar comparable.

And on top of that, to make the argument even more foolish, we have bicycle lanes in roadways, and actively encourage bikes to even use road lanes when they don't exist (with sings that say "Share the Road"). At least a with bike path next to light rail (even if there is no fence) the tracks are further away than cars usually are from bikes on a road, and trains don't often weave outside of their travel line.

I would take my chances cycling/running next to a rail line 100% of the time where trains are passing me maybe once ever few minutes, as opposed to in a road lane where cars are whizzing past you every second and maybe one of them might be distracted and swerve into my path without notice.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Fences don't exist?

They don't exist in 3D mockups in order to sell it to the city/public. Slight of hand "Here's a pretty LRT that is people friendly"

So you get something like this:

(source: http://www.metronews.fr/lyon/grenoble-le...leur-droit-de-retrait/mmko!zU3gCWreLrp2/ )

But it ends up looking like this

source: http://railgallery.wongm.com/tram-works/F101_9966.jpg.html

[officedweller]

Here's what the City of Richmond circulated in its Canada Line consultation process.
Of course the final design submitted by the proponents was a side-of-road alignment, so quite different.
They also don't cit all the intersection closures an at-grade alignment would have required.


http://www.richmond.ca/discover/services/rav/rav2003.htm

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

And again, what's the point of your linked articles? It's just some other people's odd opinions. I don't know if Gordon Price as ever left Vancouver, because, speaking as someone who has lived at White Rock Beach, it is nothing like how he described it.

If you're not going to read a linked article, then don't bother commenting on them. I link to these things because it's the polite thing to do and not just rip random things out of context like certain media trolls do.

Jerry Dobrovolny, whom is quoted by both pages is the City of Vancouver general manager of engineering. That opinion piece is by a reporter at a newspaper, not some brainless blogger. Gordon Price is an urban planner who teaches at SFU, and also worked for Translink, and hence is a quotable source on transit and urbanism in Vancouver.

Jerry Dobrovolny is a civil engineer, and the reason why the LRT option to Broadway was not considered.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Kisai

If you're not going to read a linked article, then don't bother commenting on them. I link to these things because it's the polite thing to do and not just rip random things out of context like certain media trolls do.

Jerry Dobrovolny, whom is quoted by both pages is the City of Vancouver general manager of engineering. That opinion piece is by a reporter at a newspaper, not some brainless blogger. Gordon Price is an urban planner who teaches at SFU, and also worked for Translink, and hence is a quotable source on transit and urbanism in Vancouver.

Jerry Dobrovolny is a civil engineer, and the reason why the LRT option to Broadway was not considered.

Maybe you should read my posts. Because I did read it, and I actually read too much, and followed his link to his earlier story:
https://pricetags.wordpress.com/2016/03/15/the-future-of-the-arbutus-corridor/

hence why I was pointing out how wrong Gordon Price is about White Rock. When someone starts comparing streetcar to heavy rail lines (that he doesn't even seem to know what they are actually like) it just starts to stink.

And again, not all things equal. Broadway does not equal Arbutus. Not the same. Broadway is a major corridor that tens of thousands of people from all across the region are going to be travelling to. Arbutus is a high density neighborhood (the the potential for more density) feeding said Broadway. Broadway needs subway, Arbutus needs light rail.

And Dobrovolny pretty much supports the same. He just pointed out the only 2 challenging sections, and had potential solutions. He seems like he (the Champion of Broadway Subway) is fully on board for Arbutus light rail.

So again, what is the point of posting those 2 stories? Gordon Price is actually worried about the whole ROW it not being dedicated to light rail (which concerns him for all the wrong reasons as I pointed out), and the other article is about some snot nosed gumshoe picking on the one maybe troublesome section of the ROW and get shot down by Dobrovolny.

How does that prove anything you are saying?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Kisai

They don't exist in 3D mockups in order to sell it to the city/public. Slight of hand "Here's a pretty LRT that is people friendly"

So you get something like this:

(source: http://www.metronews.fr/lyon/grenoble-le...leur-droit-de-retrait/mmko!zU3gCWreLrp2/ )

But it ends up looking like this

source: http://railgallery.wongm.com/tram-works/F101_9966.jpg.html

While you are up there, can you pick me some Bing Cherries?

There are plenty of systems out there without fences. Portland barely has any on the MAX or the Streetcar. Link light rail has few fences, nor does Seattle Streetcar or in Tacoma, or in Toronto, or in San Francisco....

Besides, even in that picture you showed, the fence is there to keep people from illegally crossing the street from the station platform: something that would be illegal even if the rail wasn't there. And again, you are comparing to different things: one a picture of a train in a sprawling boulevard, the other of a train in a dense urban street.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

And again, not all things equal. Broadway does not equal Arbutus. Not the same. Broadway is a major corridor that tens of thousands of people from all across the region are going to be travelling to. Arbutus is a high density neighborhood (the the potential for more density) feeding said Broadway. Broadway needs subway, Arbutus needs light rail.

^ This. It's like the difference between a smartphone and a computer - just as you don't use a smartphone for word processing or playing an MMO, you don't need a desktop if you only want to check your messages and listen to music.

Likewise, Broadway Skytrain and Arbutus LRT are two different technologies for two different scenarios. If I need to get downtown or to the airport, then I'll take the Canada Line; if it's Kerrisdale or False Creek, I don't mind waiting another 5-10 minutes for a tram.
Skytrain connects townships and important destinations, while light rail connects neighbourhoods - neither one should be doing the other's job.

[officedweller]

Heads up that the railway tracks crossing 4th Ave just east of Fir St. have been removed or just paved over.
What used to have a crossing with wooden timbers lining the tracks has perfectly smooth pavement.
- the smoothness makes me wonder is the rails were removed or just buried.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Heads up that the railway tracks crossing 4th Ave just east of Fir St. have been removed or just paved over.
What used to have a crossing with wooden timbers lining the tracks has perfectly smooth pavement.
- the smoothness makes me wonder is the rails were removed or just buried.

On schedule, they stated they would remove crossings around this time.

Looks like they removed the rails over the weekend. They were working at W 1st and Fir as well.

I'm wondering why they wouldn't just bring in a loco and several cars to just lift the tracks and ties. Seems like it would be more efficient

[officedweller]

I drove over the tracks at 1st & Fir last night - they were still there.

[AMTDGT]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

....
I'm wondering why they wouldn't just bring in a loco and several cars to just lift the tracks and ties. Seems like it would be more efficient

When we went by, it was city of Vancouver equipment and crew leaning on their shovels at the 4th crossing. I doubt they have access to a loco and cars, although I agree it would have been the most efficient way. I suspect the CPR probably has specialized equipment for that removal job.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

I'm wondering why they wouldn't just bring in a loco and several cars to just lift the tracks and ties. Seems like it would be more efficient

Even if CN were doing the work, I'm a bit skeptical that the tracks are in good enough condition for a locomotive to run all the way down to 4th. And even if it were it's probably still cheaper to use a truck. It's not like trucks can't go down the right of way like a locomotive (supposedly) could.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Kisai

But it ends up looking like this

source: http://railgallery.wongm.com/tram-works/F101_9966.jpg.html

That's a very nice looking fence. That's how they should build a barrier between the bike and walking path and the rail line if it ever gets built .

[Smooth]

Looks like the City of Vancouver is hiring for design work on the Arbutus Corridor:
https://www.linkedin.com/comm/jobs2/view...est-null-59-null-null-1zptyf~ioaigbhk~d6

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Even if CN were doing the work, I'm a bit skeptical that the tracks are in good enough condition for a locomotive to run all the way down to 4th. And even if it were it's probably still cheaper to use a truck. It's not like trucks can't go down the right of way like a locomotive (supposedly) could.

It's much cheaper and quicker to bring a diesel loco and several units to remove the rails and ties. My guess is that you are right about he tracks being in no condition to operate on north of 16th.

Originally Posted by AMTDGT

When we went by, it was city of Vancouver equipment and crew leaning on their shovels at the 4th crossing. I doubt they have access to a loco and cars, although I agree it would have been the most efficient way. I suspect the CPR probably has specialized equipment for that removal job.

Apparently, the COV sweetened the deal so that they would be responsible for dealing with the at-grade crossings.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

It's much cheaper and quicker to bring a diesel loco and several units to remove the rails and ties.

Are you talking about using the locomotive and some flatcars just to haul the rail and ties away? Or what? 'Cause if it's the former I can't see why a truck would be any more expensive. And if you're talking about a powered tie removal unit then I doubt they'd bother with a locomotive since there are a lot of portable options out there. It's not like they have 100 miles of track to deal with.

The other thing to consider is who's responsible for the rail removal: the City or CN. If it's the former then I doubt they'd get any help from CN.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Are you talking about using the locomotive and some flatcars just to haul the rail and ties away? Or what? 'Cause if it's the former I can't see why a truck would be any more expensive.

The other thing to consider is who's responsible for the rail removal: the City or CN. If it's the former then I doubt they'd get any help from CN.

CP is responsible for removing the rails, ties, basalt and any warning lights along the entire stretch. Though it appears as if they City will be responsible for removing rails in the crossings. Work is expected to begin soon and last well into 2018.

[VancouverOfTheFuture]

does anyone know if they will remove previously buried in asphalt crossings? there is a crossing around 14th aveish where it used to be a double track, and you can clearly see the asphalt being all wonky in the perfect spacing/size of a buried rail crossing.

[zivan56]

Originally Posted by VancouverOfTheFuture

does anyone know if they will remove previously buried in asphalt crossings? there is a crossing around 14th aveish where it used to be a double track, and you can clearly see the asphalt being all wonky in the perfect spacing/size of a buried rail crossing.

They just removed the tracks crossing 4th Ave near Fir recently, and that one was in really good condition. So most likely they will remove most of them in the next few months.

[Tetsuo]

They removed the tracks crossing Burrard on 4th (they just added it to the overall sewage project work being done on Burrard)

Didn't cover over them, they took them out and paved over. The tracks are now laying on top the existing tracks adjacent to the crossing, surprised no one is trying to jack them