Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Those graphics are great.

I would love to see one that shows the change over time. I wouldn't doubt That before the lines were added that Toronto and Montreal would look similar to what Vancouver is now.

Right now, unless you live where the Skytrain or WCE runs, you are taking a bus or driving. If the WCE was expanded beyond the current 1 line, you would see changes like what has happened to Montreal and Toronto. If you had both way trains, You would see even more changes.

Right now there may seem like there is little demand, but within a short time, people will move to where they would rather, knowing that it is a train ride to where they work/play.

May I say "right on"!!?" There's a saying, at least partly true: "Build it, and they'll use it." This would not apply if planning commuter rail for Medicine Hat. But here it's ripe to go.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by officedweller

The main reason we don't have a network of Commuter Rail lines is bacuse of Metyro Vancouver's diverse commuting patterns.
Vancouver is not a head office city (like Toronto or Calgary) so the influx into downtown Vancouver (while big) is not the only destination.

That said, a broader commuter rail network could encourage longer commutes via rail to Vancouver.

This is something people seem to keep missing. Not all the rail lines being proposed here need to go to downtown Vancouver - because not everyone travels to Vancouver. Connecting to key points in Richmond, Surrey and Coquitlam where people can transfer to Skytrain if they need to is fine for the majority of commuter rail.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Sheba

This is something people seem to keep missing. Not all the rail lines being proposed here need to go to downtown Vancouver - because not everyone travels to Vancouver. Connecting to key points in Richmond, Surrey and Coquitlam where people can transfer to Skytrain if they need to is fine for the majority of commuter rail.

That point much appreciated.
Is it possible for anybody on SSP, to desgin a few tentative route maps for this specific component of rail in Vancouver? Probably have to go under Transit Fantasies. Maybe not.

[scryer]

Originally Posted by logan5

Yeah. If you could provide a high speed commuter rail service that could give Abbotsford the same commute as Surrey to DT, that would provide people with a really enticing option. Chilliwack to DT in less than an hour. You would also have interchanges at key Skytrasin stations like Lougheed, Broadway, and of course Waterfront being the terminus.

It could easily be built along the #1.

So would that make a split WCE extension from Mission to Chilliwack and Abbotsford a feasible option?

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

May I say "right on"!!?" There's a saying, at least partly true: "Build it, and they'll use it." This would not apply if planning commuter rail for Medicine Hat. But here it's ripe to go.

A realistic spoke commuter rail system would work in our major cites - Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa, and even Halifax. These cites have the rail infrastructure, and the traffic patterns that already would make it viable.

Sadly, not many governments want to take the risk.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

A realistic spoke commuter rail system would work in our major cites - Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa, and even Halifax. These cites have the rail infrastructure, and the traffic patterns that already would make it viable.

Sadly, not many governments want to take the risk.

Sometimes private sector companies will undertake such projects, and are the owners of expressways, technology ...
the finance and enginering people can explain it better than I can here, if the links are read. The company in this case is VINCI, of France,
for the few of you who don't already know about it.
Do such large construction companies exist in a parallel fashion in Vancouver?
Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Thank you for your kindness and understanding


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinci_SA

https://www.vinci.com/vinci.nsf/en/index.htm

http://www.vinci-construction-projects.com/

http://www.vinci-construction-projets.co...ouvrages.htm?openagent&f=Autoroute%20A19

[casper]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Sometimes private sector companies will undertake such projects, and are the owners of expressways, technology ...
the finance and enginering people can explain it better than I can here, if the links are read. The company in this case is VINCI, of France,
for the few of you who don't already know about it.
Do such large construction companies exist in a parallel fashion in Vancouver?
Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
Thank you for your kindness and understanding


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinci_SA

https://www.vinci.com/vinci.nsf/en/index.htm

http://www.vinci-construction-projects.com/

http://www.vinci-construction-projets.co...ouvrages.htm?openagent&f=Autoroute%20A19

Yes, Canada has SNC-Lavalin among others. They are part of the behind-the-scenes consortium that build and operates the Canada line. There are usually done as Public-Private partnerships with some level of government guarantee.

[Anorak]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

That point much appreciated.
Is it possible for anybody on SSP, to desgin a few tentative route maps for this specific component of rail in Vancouver? Probably have to go under Transit Fantasies. Maybe not.

You can do it yourself with Google MyMaps.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

The distance from Waterfront to King George is LONGER than the new extension from Union to Vaughan Corporate Center by more than 10 km.

Next argument? Speed? It is about 10 minutes faster to take the subway than the Skytrain.

Yes. it is LONGER to King George. This is my point. We don't have as much commuter rail because SkyTrain is a FASTER medium and travels further out. If we had something like the Toronto Subway, we would have a greater need for commuter rail because subways like Toronto have are slow. This is partially due to the fact that they serve a different purpose, with less efficient station spacing , and partially due to SkyTrain using linear induction to propel it ( yielding faster acceleration ).

SUBWAY = 15km in 25 minutes = 36 km/h
SkyTrain = 29km in 39 minutes = 45 km/h


SkyTrain is 25% faster overall. This is a considerable difference.

Putting that in perspective. The GO train from Malton ( just past the airport ) to Union Station takes 31 minutes. It travels along a very direct 24km path.

24km in 31 minutes = 46 km/h. The GO Train is just a touch faster than SkyTrain... and how many stops does it make?

Although I'm sure the GO train averages faster speeds as it leaves the city, it would appear that Vancouver already has a GO Train system. It built the first leg in 1985.

I'm not saying that it wouldn't be nice to have a commuter rail system, but any commuter rail system likely wouldn't compete well with SkyTrain in the time department. Although it would be more comfortable, it would run less frequently and along current rail ROW the city has available it would be slow. the WCE makes sense because it's direct, fast and nowhere near SkyTrain.

Commuter rail could be useful to connect exurbs, like Langley, Abbotsford, and Chilliwack to the city, but you really have to ask yourself if it's money that couldn't be better spent elsewhere.

Abbotsford can be connected to Mission quite easily.
Langley is well within reach of the SkyTrain, which would serve it better in my opinion.
Chiliwack is quite far away, decentralized, and to be honest, I don't think the ridership is there.

I DO think it makes sense to have some kind of improvements to make trains faster between Vancouver and Seattle, because the border makes car travel unpredictable and slow, and these two cities are large population centers with a decent population mass between them.

For this reason, I think new track bypassing White Rock should be a priority in addition to a new rail bridge or a tunnel across the Fraser.

[xd_1771]

Been pointing this out for awhile now as well, but I do think SkyTrain serves its purpose well as a line-haul type rapid transit line that strikes a balance between providing good service for long-distance commuters as well as intra-city commuters/transit dependent users who demand frequent service and access benefits.

Why do you think Quebec's Caisse has a SkyTrain-like proposal being pushed forward in Montreal, one branch actually *replacing* an existing heavy commuter rail.

If we built any other transit type, it'd have made a sacrifice in one of the areas that makes our system work beautifully. If we built a subway along Kingsway rather than the current system, the initial terminus would be at Metrotown or Edmonds and the outer suburbs would've likely sprawled right into ALR land. If we built a light rail system along the BCER Central Park Line ROW, it could've managed to go further and convert long-distance commuters via park-n-ride, but the 'Expo Line' would have likely never reached Surrey (the SkyBridge alignment was dependent on the sloping/curve advantages of our LIM technology) and there'd be inferior connectivity in the downtown core as LRVs would have been too big for a reuse of the Dunsmuir tunnel - the actual LRT plan that was in place before the ICTS switch had a tunnel taking the 'Expo Line' directly to Waterfront, without the stops today at Granville and Burrard.

Either case would have required the region to invest significantly more in roads into downtown as well as out in the suburbs, offsetting the pace at which we could expand rail transit in the region. With Surrey not getting the effect of any rail rapid transit, the Port Mann would've been twinned by the late 1990s and the Pattullo replaced by the early 2000s at heavy costs. Transit-dependent people looking for decent transit mobility would've needed to look into the inner city exclusively at high costs - there'd be less options in a housing affordability crisis.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by xd_1771

Been pointing this out for awhile now as well, but I do think SkyTrain serves its purpose well as a line-haul type rapid transit line that strikes a balance between providing good service for long-distance commuters as well as intra-city commuters/transit dependent users who demand frequent service and access benefits.

Why do you think Quebec's Caisse has a SkyTrain-like proposal being pushed forward in Montreal, one branch actually *replacing* an existing heavy commuter rail.

If we built any other transit type, it'd have made a sacrifice in one of the areas that makes our system work beautifully. If we built a subway along Kingsway rather than the current system, the initial terminus would be at Metrotown or Edmonds and the outer suburbs would've likely sprawled right into ALR land. If we built a light rail system along the BCER Central Park Line ROW, it could've managed to go further and convert long-distance commuters via park-n-ride, but the 'Expo Line' would have likely never reached Surrey (the SkyBridge alignment was dependent on the sloping/curve advantages of our LIM technology) and there'd be inferior connectivity in the downtown core as LRVs would have been too big for a reuse of the Dunsmuir tunnel - the actual LRT plan that was in place before the ICTS switch had a tunnel taking the 'Expo Line' directly to Waterfront, without the stops today at Granville and Burrard.

Either case would have required the region to invest significantly more in roads into downtown as well as out in the suburbs, offsetting the pace at which we could expand rail transit in the region. With Surrey not getting the effect of any rail rapid transit, the Port Mann would've been twinned by the late 1990s and the Pattullo replaced by the early 2000s at heavy costs. Transit-dependent people looking for decent transit mobility would've needed to look into the inner city exclusively at high costs - there'd be less options in a housing affordability crisis.

I will never say that the Skytrain is a bad idea. It is not an express route. It is faster than a bus, but it is not faster than heavy rail commuter. To prove this, once the Evergreen extension is finished, have a race with the Skytrain to Port Moody or Coquitlam Centre. The WCE will beat it.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I will never say that the Skytrain is a bad idea. It is not an express route. It is faster than a bus, but it is not faster than heavy rail commuter. To prove this, once the Evergreen extension is finished, have a race with the Skytrain to Port Moody or Coquitlam Centre. The WCE will beat it.

In a perfect world we would have Skytrain and a Sbahn/RER type system and trams, unfortunately the reality is the resources we would need to get a proper network is unachievable. Skytrain covers a lot of what we would need out of a Sbahn/RER system and the bus network covers all of a potential tram network. For us the biggest problem with a Sbahn/RER type system is I can't think of a single route that would be easy/cheap to implement, either there are no right of ways or the route is at capacity for freight or the existing rail does not go by significant destinations.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Commuter rail could be useful to connect exurbs, like Langley, Abbotsford, and Chilliwack to the city, but you really have to ask yourself if it's money that couldn't be better spent elsewhere.

Abbotsford can be connected to Mission quite easily.
Langley is well within reach of the SkyTrain, which would serve it better in my opinion.
Chiliwack is quite far away, decentralized, and to be honest, I don't think the ridership is there.

All excellent points, but as stated before, Vancouver is a pretty decentralized metro; not everything needs to go downtown. Using a WCE line to connect Tsawwassen, YDT, south Surrey, Langley and Abbotsford seems like a worthwhile effort.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Rico

In a perfect world we would have Skytrain and a Sbahn/RER type system and trams, unfortunately the reality is the resources we would need to get a proper network is unachievable. Skytrain covers a lot of what we would need out of a Sbahn/RER system and the bus network covers all of a potential tram network. For us the biggest problem with a Sbahn/RER type system is I can't think of a single route that would be easy/cheap to implement, either there are no right of ways or the route is at capacity for freight or the existing rail does not go by significant destinations.

Look at Toronto. Look at Montreal. They did not get their systems overnight. They did add more lines using the best routes they had. They found ways to make those routes faster. They used those stations as intermodal stations.

Vancouver can keep expanding the Skytrain, but it is already getting overcrowded. Adding an express train to allow people to bypass some, or all of the lines can alleviate this congestion.

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

All excellent points, but as stated before, Vancouver is a pretty decentralized metro; not everything needs to go downtown. Using a WCE line to connect Tsawwassen, YDT, south Surrey, Langley and Abbotsford seems like a worthwhile effort.

Exactly. Too bad one one will open a second line.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Using a WCE line to connect Tsawwassen, YDT, south Surrey, Langley and Abbotsford seems like a worthwhile effort.

Are ya even remotely familiar with these places and their commuting patterns? The current comfortable rapid bus combo would save at least 1/2 hour + for each one-way commute. The WCE-type trains would be sitting empty.

[logicbomb]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

A realistic spoke commuter rail system would work in our major cites - Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Winnipeg, Ottawa, and even Halifax. These cites have the rail infrastructure, and the traffic patterns that already would make it viable.

Sadly, not many governments want to take the risk.

The issue is that the rail infrastructure is rapidly disappearing in BC and much of the land along the ROWS are being sold off or outright abandoned. Many mainlines have also reduced the number of parallel and side tracks to cut down on maintenance costs so that's also compounding any ability to use those corridors.

Arbutus and Marpole Spur, South False Creek ROW, Van Horne Spur- these were great opportunities for a LRT network/passenger rail system.

Van Horne in particular. This could have linked up Steveston to Bridgeport via the Railway ROW or Bridgeport and South Richmond/Delta via Shell. Oh well.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by logicbomb

The issue is that the rail infrastructure is rapidly disappearing in BC and much of the land along the ROWS are being sold off or outright abandoned. Many mainlines have also reduced the number of parallel and side tracks to cut down on maintenance costs so that's also compounding any ability to use those corridors.

Arbutus and Marpole Spur, South False Creek ROW, Van Horne Spur- these were great opportunities for a LRT network/passenger rail system.

Van Horne in particular. This could have linked up Steveston to Bridgeport via the Railway ROW or Bridgeport and South Richmond/Delta via Shell. Oh well.

Lack of use leads to abandonment. You know, if the local governments were to run a passenger line along one of those routes, they would not have the argument for abandonment. If the rail companies wanted to off load them to the local government to maintain them, that would be even better.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I will never say that the Skytrain is a bad idea. It is not an express route. It is faster than a bus, but it is not faster than heavy rail commuter. To prove this, once the Evergreen extension is finished, have a race with the Skytrain to Port Moody or Coquitlam Centre. The WCE will beat it.

I would hope the WCE wins from Port Moody to Waterfront. It's pretty much a straight shot from there with no stops. It's the second fastest part of the system. I calculated it once and I think it had an average speed of 60km/h along that section. This is why there is a commuter line there. It makes sense there.

The WCE make perfect sense where it is.

I agree that the only other line that MIGHT make sense is the one in the map you made a few pages back. Linking Southern Surrey, Cloverdale, and Langley away from rapid transit lines seems like a good idea. Although, I'd probably consider running it along the SRY alignment instead of Colebrook from 176th to the bridge and I'd take out all but two stops ( Newton and Cloverdale ) in Surrey.

It's a good alignment that links together SkyTrain lines and secondary city centers, but I wonder if a DMU or LRT along along this alignment isn't a better idea.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I would hope the WCE wins from Port Moody to Waterfront. It's pretty much a straight shot from there with no stops. It's the second fastest part of the system. I calculated it once and I think it had an average speed of 60km/h along that section. This is why there is a commuter line there. It makes sense there.

The WCE make perfect sense where it is.

I agree that the only other line that MIGHT make sense is the one in the map you made a few pages back. Linking Southern Surrey, Cloverdale, and Langley away from rapid transit lines seems like a good idea. Although, I'd probably consider running it along the SRY alignment instead of Colebrook from 176th to the bridge and I'd take out all but two stops ( Newton and Cloverdale ) in Surrey.

It's a good alignment that links together SkyTrain lines and secondary city centers, but I wonder if a DMU or LRT along along this alignment isn't a better idea.

One thing you need to keep in mind is that all these routes that are being proposed are currently single-tracked for most of it. Double tracking any route is very costly if it is even doable in some locations. The SRY line running through Surrey is a slow route with low-grade jointed rail and all single track. A very large investment would need to be made to get it suitable for fast LRT. Commuter rail would never work on this line.

The bottom line in any investment in transportation is the number of people it will serve. A few riders commuting a particular route does not justify a new service. I agree that not everyone goes downtown or along the current transit routes but enough do and that is why the current routes are in place. It is all about the numbers.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

One thing you need to keep in mind is that all these routes that are being proposed are currently single-tracked for most of it. Double tracking any route is very costly if it is even doable in some locations. The SRY line running through Surrey is a slow route with low-grade jointed rail and all single track. A very large investment would need to be made to get it suitable for fast LRT. Commuter rail would never work on this line.

The bottom line in any investment in transportation is the number of people it will serve. A few riders commuting a particular route does not justify a new service. I agree that not everyone goes downtown or along the current transit routes but enough do and that is why the current routes are in place. It is all about the numbers.

Agree on both points. The SRY route just seems to be closer to where people travel. It's too bad it's all single-tracked. Colebrook siding would be faster, but you couldn't have a station in Newton or anywhere near Surrey's population centers, unfortunately.

I do know that the North Fraser line was considered a future potential DMU line. Communities like the East Fraser lands, in fact, planned for a potential station there when building the community. I think of all the areas that could use fast train transportation, that area from New West to Langara has the greatest potential for ridership. That area may not have a super dense population, but an East-West route there would certainly open up the system making things like New West –Richmond/YVR or Central Surrey – Richmond/YVR well within reach. Not having to go downtown on a crowded train to get to the airport from Surrey ( by train ) would be a great legacy of such a line.