Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[go_leafs_go02]

Originally Posted by officedweller

The easiest way to get Westcoast Express to Abbotsford is a southern extension from Mission across the Mission rail bridge.
(This has been discussed on the forum before)
If and when SkyTrain (or LRT) gets to Langley, there would be less need for WCE through Langley.
This would, of course, be subject to the same constraints on sharing track time with freight trains as other proposals.
If any upgrades to trackage are needed, you're just dealing with one line, not splitting costs between multiple lines.

Commuters would have access to the SkyTrain network at Coquitlam Central.

There are probably a number of Abbotsford commuters who drive to Mission to catch the WCE.

http://www.buildinghistory.ca/mission-railway-bridge-1909/


http://www.buildinghistory.ca/mission-railway-bridge-1909/

I think I've promoted that before. Would have to relocate the Mission station further west to be before the trains would turn to head south to Abbotsford. I don't think the bridge is open too much to shipping traffic, and I believe the CP rail line down to Abbotsford has 1 train per day.

I'd suggest the Mission station to be right behind the movie theatre (just east of Highway 11), and Abbotsford could have two stations, one where Maclure crosses the railway, and then one immediately south of Highway 1.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Trainguy

The problem is not the rail bridge so much but the Fraser River. It is a very active river so any rail bridge would get open pretty much on demand. River traffic trumps rail traffic so trying to keep a schedule like commuter rail would be hit and miss.

South of the Fraser has no quick route into downtown.

I was crossing the border at Peace Arch last night around 7:10 and the cascades was sitting there. 10 minutes later it left. Assuming that it left on time at 5:35 pm, that is over 1.5 hours just to get across the border from Pacific Central. Now that's a slow passenger train. The problem is, no easy way to shorten the time.

25% of the trip's distance is north of the border. ~60km
75% of the trip's distance is south of the border. ~180km.

According to the schedule (northbound)

Seattle – Bellingham takes 2:10
Bellingham – Vancouver takes 1:50 with one short stop.

( Southbound takes ~30 minutes longer for some reason )

I think we should be able to shave 30 minutes off the time north of the border. Maybe then we'll get a mid-day train.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by go_leafs_go02

I think I've promoted that before. Would have to relocate the Mission station further west to be before the trains would turn to head south to Abbotsford. I don't think the bridge is open too much to shipping traffic, and I believe the CP rail line down to Abbotsford has 1 train per day.

I'd suggest the Mission station to be right behind the movie theatre (just east of Highway 11), and Abbotsford could have two stations, one where Maclure crosses the railway, and then one immediately south of Highway 1.

Alternatively, run a DMU from Abbotsford timed to meet the WCE.

You'd avoid the complications ( and expense ) of moving the station, maintain the current park n' ride lot in Mission ( important for riders ) and have a shuttle service between Mission and Abbotsford that could be more useful than just expanding the WCE. For example, you'd have two way service between the two communities.

You've even already got a pedestrian bridge already built across teh tracks to link the two platforms: http://i.imgur.com/JXH7uLH.jpg

Seems like a better idea to me.

[swimmer_spe]

I think GO has proven that no matter how expansive Skytrain ever gets, a higher speed express rail system will always be needed.

Another thread:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=7454935&postcount=8385
http://www.metronews.ca/news/toronto/2016/05/12/price-drop-triples-ridership-on-upx.html

Shows that people are avoiding the Subway and taking a faster albeit more expensive train to get to their destination.

Toronto figured this out. Montreal has too.

I wonder when Vancouver will.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I think GO has proven that no matter how expansive Skytrain ever gets, a higher speed express rail system will always be needed.

Another thread:
http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showpost.php?p=7454935&postcount=8385
http://www.metronews.ca/news/toronto/2016/05/12/price-drop-triples-ridership-on-upx.html

Shows that people are avoiding the Subway and taking a faster albeit more expensive train to get to their destination.

Toronto figured this out. Montreal has too.

I wonder when Vancouver will.

Problem is that SkyTrain is not slow enough. The Subway in Toronto is considerably slower than Vancouver. It also doesn't stretch out as far. If we had a system like Toronto in Vancouver, we'd have a system that barely reached New Westminster. Surrey would be akin to linking Mississauga to the Subway ( unthinkable ), Richmond would like Scarborough is to the TTC, and we'd have mainlines along Hastings, Kingsway, Granville and Broadway.

We'd build GO Trains out any further than that and concentrate rapid transit North of the Fraser.

[officedweller]

Yeah, the existing U-shaped Yonge University-Spadina line is only 30.2 km long (i.e. downtown in the middle with each leg only 15 km long)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_1_Yonge%E2%80%93University

The Bloor-Danforth Line is only 26.2 km long (i.e. downtown in the middle with each leg only 13 km long)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Line_2_Bloor%E2%80%93Danforth

The Expo Line is 28.9 km long with one end in downtown.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expo_Line_(TransLink)

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Alternatively, run a DMU from Abbotsford timed to meet the WCE.

You'd avoid the complications ( and expense ) of moving the station, maintain the current park n' ride lot in Mission ( important for riders ) and have a shuttle service between Mission and Abbotsford that could be more useful than just expanding the WCE. For example, you'd have two way service between the two communities.

You've even already got a pedestrian bridge already built across teh tracks to link the two platforms:

Seems like a better idea to me.

Cool idea.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

Problem is that SkyTrain is not slow enough. The Subway in Toronto is considerably slower than Vancouver. It also doesn't stretch out as far. If we had a system like Toronto in Vancouver, we'd have a system that barely reached New Westminster. Surrey would be akin to linking Mississauga to the Subway ( unthinkable ), Richmond would like Scarborough is to the TTC, and we'd have mainlines along Hastings, Kingsway, Granville and Broadway.

We'd build GO Trains out any further than that and concentrate rapid transit North of the Fraser.

The distance from Waterfront to King George is LONGER than the new extension from Union to Vaughan Corporate Center by more than 10 km.

Next argument? Speed? It is about 10 minutes faster to take the subway than the Skytrain.

[officedweller]

The main reason we don't have a network of Commuter Rail lines is bacuse of Metyro Vancouver's diverse commuting patterns.
Vancouver is not a head office city (like Toronto or Calgary) so the influx into downtown Vancouver (while big) is not the only destination.

That said, a broader commuter rail network could encourage longer commutes via rail to Vancouver.

See article here:

http://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/interactive-map-shows-metro-vancouver-commuting-patterns

See also:

April 2014 Canadian Geographic:

Commuting in Montreal, Toronto and Vancouver
A look at commuting patterns in Canada’s largest metro areas
By Nick Walker
...

For many, the locations of available jobs and affordable living don’t go hand in hand, but it’s reasonable to assume that most of those commuting into the cores of Canada’s three most-populated metropolitan areas (Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver) are coming from nearby municipalities. Toronto proper alone swells by more than 450,000 workers each day (not to mention the 837,000 locals who travel between bed and business within the metro centre). Montreal, similarly, gains almost 390,000 people per day (equal to the entire population of Halifax); Vancouver, about 150,000.
...

Pink - commuting to Vancouver
Yellow - commuting to another municipality
Brown - commuting within own municipality


http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/magazine/apr14/on_the_map.asp

Compare to Toronto (green) and Montreal (purple)

Green - commuting to Toronto
Yellow - commuting to another municipality
brown - commuting within own municipality


http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/magazine/apr14/on_the_map.asp

Purple - commuting to Montreal
Yellow - commuting to another municipality
brown - commuting within own municipality


http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/magazine/apr14/on_the_map.asp

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by officedweller

The main reason we don't have a network of Commuter Rail lines is bacuse of Metyro Vancouver's diverse commuting patterns.
Vancouver is not a head office city (like Toronto or Calgary) so the influx into downtown Vancouver (while big) is not the only destination.

That said, a broader commuter rail network could encourage longer commutes via rail to Vancouver.

See article here:

http://vancouversun.com/news/staff-blogs/interactive-map-shows-metro-vancouver-commuting-patterns

See also:

April 2014 Canadian Geographic:



Pink - commuting to Vancouver
Yellow - commuting to another municipality
Brown - commuting within own municipality


http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/magazine/apr14/on_the_map.asp

Compare to Toronto (green) and Montreal (purple)

Green - commuting to Toronto
Yellow - commuting to another municipality
brown - commuting within own municipality


http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/magazine/apr14/on_the_map.asp

Purple - commuting to Montreal
Yellow - commuting to another municipality
brown - commuting within own municipality


http://www.canadiangeographic.ca/magazine/apr14/on_the_map.asp

Those graphics are great.

I would love to see one that shows the change over time. I wouldn't doubt That before the lines were added that Toronto and Montreal would look similar to what Vancouver is now.

Right now, unless you live where the Skytrain or WCE runs, you are taking a bus or driving. If the WCE was expanded beyond the current 1 line, you would see changes like what has happened to Montreal and Toronto. If you had both way trains, You would see even more changes.

Right now there may seem like there is little demand, but within a short time, people will move to where they would rather, knowing that it is a train ride to where they work/play.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Those graphics are great.

I would love to see one that shows the change over time. I wouldn't doubt That before the lines were added that Toronto and Montreal would look similar to what Vancouver is now.

Right now, unless you live where the Skytrain or WCE runs, you are taking a bus or driving. If the WCE was expanded beyond the current 1 line, you would see changes like what has happened to Montreal and Toronto. If you had both way trains, You would see even more changes.

Right now there may seem like there is little demand, but within a short time, people will move to where they would rather, knowing that it is a train ride to where they work/play.

There may be some consequential "optimization" of offices relocating to downtown to take advantage of commuter rail efficiencies, but that will also depend on the absolute numbers who work in office environments (as opposed to trades, etc.).

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by officedweller

There may be some consequential "optimization" of offices relocating to downtown to take advantage of commuter rail efficiencies, but that will also depend on the absolute numbers who work in office environments (as opposed to trades, etc.).

You could also move factories to the edges of the city. In fact, each city with in the CMA could become more diverse and not rely on the housing you have to house the workers.

There are Torontoians who commute out to jobs.

It is not just office workers who commute.

[officedweller]

Real estate prices are too high for that, and transportation networks too congested closer into the city.
i.e. the Liquor Distribution Branch is moving its warehouse away from Grandview Highway.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Real estate prices are too high for that, and transportation networks too congested closer into the city.
i.e. the Liquor Distribution Branch is moving its warehouse away from Grandview Highway.

Land is cheaper the further out you go. This is true of all major cities. An extensive commuter rail system allows citizens to take advantage by buying homes at an affordable rate - something Vancouver area is having a problem with.
Also, employers can relocate to somewhere lower cost and could potentially use that savings to expand.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Land is cheaper the further out you go. This is true of all major cities. An extensive commuter rail system allows citizens to take advantage by buying homes at an affordable rate - something Vancouver area is having a problem with.
Also, employers can relocate to somewhere lower cost and could potentially use that savings to expand.

I meant the value of industrial land is too high close to the city for traditional light industrial /manufacturing uses.

EDIT: re-read what you wrote - I interpret "edge of the city" to mean edge of City of Vancouver (like Grandview Highway)
- or do you mean periphery of Metro Vancouver (suburbs?)

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by officedweller

I meant the value of industrial land is too high close to the city for traditional light industrial /manufacturing uses.

EDIT: re-read what you wrote - I interpret "edge of the city" to mean edge of City of Vancouver (like Grandview Highway)
- or do you mean periphery of Metro Vancouver (suburbs?)

I mean suburbs like White Rock, Abbotsford, Chilliwack, and Squamish. Every company wants their offices downtown, but their factories somewhere cheap.

[casper]

We need to think of commuter rail differently. It is not about feeding office workers into downtown Vancouver. It is about connecting regional town centers with outlying communities.

Take Broadway station. This is one if not busiest Skytrain stations on the network and it right above the rail link that carries trains to Seattle, Via service heading east. I don't expect either of those to stop at broadway but it would make a great stop for a commuter rail line before it heads downtown.

You could see passangers coming from outlying communites bound for the Broadway corrider or UBC transfer there.

The new evergreen extension has several stations that have connections to WestCoast Express. That starts to make extended WestCoast express beyond Mission more viable.

As for the Liquor Distribution Branch leaving Grandview that is a positive move. The warehouse space there should be redeveloped with high rises. Basically the same type of office space that is a few blocks away except make the buildings two-three times higher. Perhaps some residential towers. Rupert St station has the potential to serve a fairly significant number of passangers at that location. Rupert St could be a transfer point between commuter rail and skytrain if it can't happen at Broadway.

With the exception of Richmond and Squamish all those graphs show the majority of commuters are going into Vancouver or another municipality. That means not just Downtown but the ability to transfer within the network.

[casper]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

I mean suburbs like White Rock, Abbotsford, Chilliwack, and Squamish. Every company wants their offices downtown, but their factories somewhere cheap.

If I was setting up an office in Vancouver and office space prices were the same everywhere I would probably pick Metrotown. Far more centrally located than downtown. The only reason to be downtown would be if the business had strong ties to banking or mining and wanted to be close to those two sectors.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

Land is cheaper the further out you go. This is true of all major cities. An extensive commuter rail system allows citizens to take advantage by buying homes at an affordable rate - something Vancouver area is having a problem with.
Also, employers can relocate to somewhere lower cost and could potentially use that savings to expand.

Yeah. If you could provide a high speed commuter rail service that could give Abbotsford the same commute as Surrey to DT, that would provide people with a really enticing option. Chilliwack to DT in less than an hour. You would also have interchanges at key Skytrasin stations like Lougheed, Broadway, and of course Waterfront being the terminus.

It could easily be built along the #1.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by logan5

Yeah. If you could provide a high speed commuter rail service that could give Abbotsford the same commute as Surrey to DT, that would provide people with a really enticing option. Chilliwack to DT in less than an hour. You would also have interchanges at key Skytrasin stations like Lougheed, Broadway, and of course Waterfront being the terminus.

It could easily be built along the #1.

Hwy #1 would not be rail friendly at all. There are too many hills and over passes to contend with. It is no mystery that rail always takes the level route ie BNSF through White Rock, CN around Surrey. Commuter rail south of the Fraser would be a tough sell unless the choke points ( Fraser rail bridge, single line traffic, and speed restrictions are solved. Metro Vancouver just has difficult topography that doesn't lend itself to higher speed rail unless it is elevated like skytrain on a dedicated track. Street level LRT just wouldn't work.

[logan5]

Trans Canada seems quite flat to me, except for the river crossing of course. EMU's can handle steeper grades than freight trains, so there are more route options.

Wouldn't a route along a freeway be ideal given that this is where there is very little interaction with city streets and pedestrians? Any commuter rail route in any city will have obstacles to contend with.

Here's what they use in Stockholm. Top speed 160 km/h. Perfect for a Chilliwack to DT route.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SL_X60