Heavy Rail, Commuter Rail, & Intercity Transportation

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

It makes no sense why the WCE has not been expanded to other routes.

That likely has to do with CP/CN not wanting to give up trackage rights that they use for freight.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Kisai

If there was a daily commuter train from White Rock to Pacific Central via Scott Road station that might justify the existence. Pacific Central isn't quite "downtown" but it's still close enough that a taxi isn't out of the question for people on the north side of the Fraser.

I would suspect they could run the train into Waterfront station. I believe there is spur line just before Pacific Central that connects through the industrial area (parallel to Glen Dr) onto the CP mainline into Waterfront.

No idea how difficult it would be to use though?

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I'd like to agree totally. A White rock Line makes total sense, routed perhaps through New West, then Surrey Central, and down through Newton to White Rock.
So might a forward-looking valley line Vancouver to Cloverdale and Langley, on to Abb/Clearbrook, to Chilliwack, maybe even Hope, "The Squamish of the East."
That one's destined to be a major commuter corridor.

It makes plenty of sense - the single track swing bridge that we were talking about is a reliability-degrading bottleneck and lines into Pacific Central Station lack the high job density of Waterfront.

I would note however, that in 1951 Great Northern Railway passenger trains were scheduled for between 50 and 75 minutes between Great Northern Depot (essentially Pacific Central) and White Rock. See http://www.timetableworld.com/book_viewer.php?id=3&section_id=265.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

It makes plenty of sense - the single track swing bridge that we were talking about is a reliability-degrading bottleneck and lines into Pacific Central Station lack the high job density of Waterfront.

I would note however, that in 1951 Great Northern Railway passenger trains were scheduled for between 50 and 75 minutes between Great Northern Depot (essentially Pacific Central) and White Rock. See http://www.timetableworld.com/book_viewer.php?id=3&section_id=265.

Tragically, I could not find the timetable onthe site you linked me to. But you're right, especiaaly now with more population and more commuters extending out, it has to be.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

It makes plenty of sense - the single track swing bridge that we were talking about is a reliability-degrading bottleneck and lines into Pacific Central Station lack the high job density of Waterfront.

I would note however, that in 1951 Great Northern Railway passenger trains were scheduled for between 50 and 75 minutes between Great Northern Depot (essentially Pacific Central) and White Rock. See http://www.timetableworld.com/book_viewer.php?id=3&section_id=265.

So, what you are saying is that the bridge needs to be replaced with something more reliable?

There looks like a wye just before the station that could lead the train downtown to Waterfront.

It sounds like this is one of those annoying "not enough demand, but there is too much traffic already" situations. I bet if they could do something to make that crossing more reliable, a second commuter line could be added and give the WCE some much needed expansion. It might even lower congestion.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

While riding the Millenium Line into Braid Station earlier today, I noted an old passenger coach under tarps on the spur that goes up next the the large old factory next to Braid Station.

Anyone know the story behind those?

Those coaches have been there for many years. I assume that they're owned by some railway museum society that's leasing the tracks for storage.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

There looks like a wye just before the station that could lead the train downtown to Waterfront.

It sounds like this is one of those annoying "not enough demand, but there is too much traffic already" situations. I bet if they could do something to make that crossing more reliable, a second commuter line could be added and give the WCE some much needed expansion. It might even lower congestion.

The Burrard Inlet Line.

One of the fringe benefits of the Powell Street and Venables/Malkin overpass projects is that the Burrard Inlet Line then becomes a faster nearly grade-separated route, and passenger service through to Waterfront becomes far more plausible than before

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I'd like to agree totally. A White rock Line makes total sense, routed perhaps through New West, then Surrey Central, and down through Newton to White Rock.

Sorry. Gotta disagree.

Off the bat you have the City of White Rock proper as well as surrounding South Surrey - which I always refer to as "Greater White Rock" with a growing population.

Right now, you have Translink's "Park and Ride" at the KGH interchange with the 99 Fwy. A good chunk of the area can drive to same within 5 minutes+ in the early morn. And the high-bucket seats on the 351 Rapid Bus are not only comfortable but also provides relatively quick transit to the Canada Line. Basically as good as it gets in terms of metro transit.

In fact, a few years ago, Translink expanded the Park & Ride to the NW quadrant of the KGH interchange but it still sits virtually empty to this day. Once the new GMB is completed, the 351 Rapid Bus should be able to haul at 110 km/hr+ along the 99 Fwy to the Canada Line. Basically a quick and straight shot into downtown Van City proper.

Just a background.

Now let's look at this West Coast Express type concept for White Rock suggested here. Just off the bat, commercial rail traffic has increased significantly over the past decade along the BNSF line - see it personally myself. And due to the pedestrian traffic over the rails as well as the numerous curves of the BNSF rail-line along the Semiahmoo Peninsula, freight trains traverse same at quite slow speed - relatively speaking.

Even when I pass the BNSF line (along the 99 Fwy), I always take note at how slow the trains move over the trestle going over Mud Bay (even with the newly constructed structure). And I see difficulty building any rail siding along that routing.

On top of that, the White Rock hillside is relatively steep to the old White Rock station. One needs to be relatively fit to walk up same, every day, to reach home. Parking will be non-existent, as it's mostly "resident-only".

And WR is even more notorious for ticketing these areas than downtown Van City. The waterfront pay-parking lots will certainly not be available due to the commercial strip along Marine Dr. Some areas have 4-hour only parking and other areas will cost ya perhaps up to $30/day.

So not much of a local catchment basin that would be able top utilize same. Even then, said concept would likely add another 30 minutes+ to any commuter compared to the existing Translink Pay Parking lot + 351 Rapid Bus + new GMB + Canada Line combo, which is essentially a "straight sling shot" into downtown Van City.

Again, does not make any logistic nor commuter travel time sense IMHO.

[AMTDGT]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

......
I would note however, that in 1951 Great Northern Railway passenger trains were scheduled for between 50 and 75 minutes between Great Northern Depot (essentially Pacific Central) and White Rock. See http://www.timetableworld.com/book_viewer.php?id=3&section_id=265.

That was a cool link. When you see the number of trains a day that came into
the GN station (Vacant lot beside the CN station), a similar number at least came into the CN station plus even more to the CP station on the waterfront. When I was a kid we took CP in from the inerior and the station was always busy, with many trains at the platforms. It was a cool way to travel. Sad that its all gone, although we just may take the old CP cars Via runs back to Toronto next spring for nostalaga reasons.

[GlassCity]

I just think White Rock is too close for commuter rail, as are other municipalities often floated such as South Delta. It only takes an hour to get downtown from White Rock. Commuter rail is intended more for big, exurban municipalities that need higher order service, but that are too disconnected for rapid transit to serve. In my opinion, Abbotsford/Chilliwack is the only other such example we have aside from the already-served Mission. Places like White Rock may warrant an S-Bahn sort of system one day, but that is a looong ways off.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I just think White Rock is too close for commuter rail, as are other municipalities often floated such as South Delta. It only takes an hour to get downtown from White Rock. Commuter rail is intended more for big, exurban municipalities that need higher order service, but that are too disconnected for rapid transit to serve. In my opinion, Abbotsford/Chilliwack is the only other such example we have aside from the already-served Mission. Places like White Rock may warrant an S-Bahn sort of system one day, but that is a looong ways off.

That's rather prescriptive of you. For example, the entire Caltrain line, save three trips a day down to Gilroy, is barely more than an hour out from San Francisco, and the average trip time is something like half an hour. The majority of New York mainline rail commuters are less than 40 km from Manhattan. For the most part, commuter rail riders are from suburbs, not distant exurbs.

There are a few super long commuter lines out there like the ACE, but they aren't all that much ridership

With respect to the S-bahn to White Rock, an S-Bahn is simply the competent upgrade path of a successful commuter rail system. I think the greater problem is that there's relatively slight traffic potential north of White Rock

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I just think White Rock is too close for commuter rail, as are other municipalities often floated such as South Delta. It only takes an hour to get downtown from White Rock. Commuter rail is intended more for big, exurban municipalities that need higher order service, but that are too disconnected for rapid transit to serve. In my opinion, Abbotsford/Chilliwack is the only other such example we have aside from the already-served Mission. Places like White Rock may warrant an S-Bahn sort of system one day, but that is a looong ways off.

In the GTA, Oshawa, Barrie and Hamilton are about an hour's drive away. They are all at the end of rail lines for GO.

[Trainguy]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

While riding the Millenium Line into Braid Station earlier today, I noted an old passenger coach under tarps on the spur that goes up next the the large old factory next to Braid Station.

Anyone know the story behind those?

I think they belong to the West Coast Railway Association or something like that. The spur you mention has actually been disconnected at Braid from the main line. The tracks are in place but the switch was removed. In order to get the cars from storage, they would have to move by truck or BNSF would have to reconnect the spur to the main line.

[ConventionalMan]

Originally Posted by Bdawe

While riding the Millenium Line into Braid Station earlier today, I noted an old passenger coach under tarps on the spur that goes up next the the large old factory next to Braid Station.

Anyone know the story behind those?

It is/was where the BC chapter of the National Railway Historical Society stored and worked on restoring locomotives and coaches. Their website doesn't show much action lately although they are still trying to come up with a plan for a railway museum, possibly on the site of the new development happening around Braid Station.

From the New West Record a few years ago...

http://www.newwestrecord.ca/news/historic-rail-collection-threatened-by-redevelopment-1.1920956

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by ConventionalMan

From the New West Record a few years ago...

http://www.newwestrecord.ca/news/historic-rail-collection-threatened-by-redevelopment-1.1920956

Great find, thanks for the link! Some thoughts:

a) I wonder what happened to the development proposal? Seems like nothing has really changed in the 2-3 years since the article was published.

b) Seems like the West Coast Railway Heritage Park in Squamish could help preserve at least some of this stuff if they have to vacate.

c) Wow, what I can see of that locomotive sure looks to be in good shape considering that it was in a head-on collision with a freight train. Here's a shot of it from this web site after the collision:



From the same web site I see that this locomotive was actually pretty far back in the train when the collision happened, which accounts for why the 80mph impact didn't do more damage. Apparently all 7 units ahead of it were demolished.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Great find, thanks for the link! Some thoughts:

a) I wonder what happened to the development proposal? Seems like nothing has really changed in the 2-3 years since the article was published.

b) Seems like the West Coast Railway Heritage Park in Squamish could help preserve at least some of this stuff if they have to vacate.

c) Wow, what I can see of that locomotive sure looks to be in good shape considering that it was in a head-on collision with a freight train. Here's a shot of it from this web site after the collision:



From the same web site I see that this locomotive was actually pretty far back in the train when the collision happened, which accounts for why the 80mph impact didn't do more damage. Apparently all 7 units ahead of it were demolished.

It took years for Sapperton Green to move forward. In November it went before city council to make amendments to the Official Community Plan, and the plan was approved. My guess is a few more years of design and zoning.

http://www.newwestcity.ca/business/planning_development/projects_on_the_go/articles/3519.php

[Anorak]

I have come up with a proposal for an extension of the West Coast express servicing Surrey. Here's a map I made


Here is a link to the Google Maps: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Pk5GpXbf6G1I2tUY4CLfZIJB_O0&usp=sharing

The line starts in Fort Langley and runs by Columbia station where a small walkway could be built under or above ground to connect to the SkyTrain. There is also an option to extend it along to the Marine Drive Canada Line station, perhaps to service the new River District Development.

This line uses existing rail, so really only the stations need to built, and perhaps the train schedules modified a bit for it to be able to go into service. There could be reassignment of rail cars from the Mission line as the ridership will be decreased with the opening of the Evergreen line. This could provide the initial rolling stock.

What do you guys think?

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Anorak

I have come up with a proposal for an extension of the West Coast express servicing Surrey. Here's a map I made
...

What do you guys think?

Nowhere to Nowhere?

The WCE works right now because it's terminus is Waterfront station. For this to work the Terminus would have to either be Scott Road station or a second rail bridge built and go all the way to Grandville Island. Terminating at the Canada Line doesn't really do anything on the West side, because that's not where people's jobs are. Likewise, Trinity Western University is probably the east-most part of that route that there would be ridership for. Otherwise you're just creating yet another route to Mission, one that the WCE already has a shorter route for.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

Sorry. Gotta disagree.

Off the bat you have the City of White Rock proper as well as surrounding South Surrey - which I always refer to as "Greater White Rock" with a growing population.

Right now, you have Translink's "Park and Ride" at the KGH interchange with the 99 Fwy. A good chunk of the area can drive to same within 5 minutes+ in the early morn. And the high-bucket seats on the 351 Rapid Bus are not only comfortable but also provides relatively quick transit to the Canada Line. Basically as good as it gets in terms of metro transit........//

//.....as well as the numerous curves of the BNSF rail-line along the Semiahmoo Peninsula, freight trains traverse same at quite slow speed - relatively speaking.
//...............................................

On top of that, the White Rock hillside is relatively steep to the old White Rock station. One needs to be relatively fit to walk up same, every day, to reach home. Parking will be non-existent, as it's mostly "resident-only".

And WR is even more notorious for ticketing these areas than downtown Van City. The waterfront pay-parking lots will certainly not be available due to the commercial strip along Marine Dr. Some areas have 4-hour only parking and other areas will cost ya perhaps up to $30/day.

So not much of a local catchment basin that would be able top utilize same. Even then, said concept would likely add another 30 minutes+ to any commuter compared to the existing Translink Pay Parking lot + 351 Rapid Bus + new GMB + Canada Line combo, which is essentially a "straight sling shot" into downtown Van City.

Again, does not make any logistic nor commuter travel time sense IMHO.

I stand corrected. Can only restate that the Valley Corridor - anything past Langley, is going to be in increasing need for tech upgrade and fequencies in the not so distant future.
And could I dare suggest that the existing WCE through Maple Rige and beyon to Mission, have a couple of mid-day commutes? Or at least a mid-day in each direction?

[Anorak]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Nowhere to Nowhere?

The WCE works right now because it's terminus is Waterfront station. For this to work the Terminus would have to either be Scott Road station or a second rail bridge built and go all the way to Grandville Island. Terminating at the Canada Line doesn't really do anything on the West side, because that's not where people's jobs are. Likewise, Trinity Western University is probably the east-most part of that route that there would be ridership for. Otherwise you're just creating yet another route to Mission, one that the WCE already has a shorter route for.

What's wrong with terminating at Scott Road? It would still service Langley, Newton, Cloverdale and North Delta. This connects them to the SkyTrain Network. They can transfer to reach other destinations from there.