Highways in Canada

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by Dwils01

Eastern Canada and Western Canada are cut off again because both Hwy 11 and 17 are currently closed due to two separate forest fires.

Hwy 11 is closed between Hearst and Long Lac and Hwy 17 is closed at White River.

That's pretty much an unavoidable situation.

[Loco101]

Originally Posted by Dwils01

Eastern Canada and Western Canada are cut off again because both Hwy 11 and 17 are currently closed due to two separate forest fires.

Hwy 11 is closed between Hearst and Long Lac and Hwy 17 is closed at White River.

The good thing is that forest fires don't normally cause highways to be closed for a very long time.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

I believe Red Deer is going to be fixed. The province just very recently announced a big project for them involving Highway 2.

I agree that all of the unrestricted access is a problem but if it can fixed in places such as Montana and ND that have way less people than we do then it should be fixable here.

Work on Highway 63 isn't done yet. It's going to be fully twinned. The roads from Edmonton leading to it should be as well.

216 not having enough lanes in place is your typical dumbass planning for a lot of places in Canada. They think they're going to look good by keeping costs low but then a few years later end up spending even more to fix things or expand roads. The 201 in Calgary was barely five years old when they started to add lanes to it in the NW.

Routing the Trans-Canada thru the middle of Calgary on 16 Avenue was and is stupid. Spending ~$120 million to make part of it an urban boulevard with a 50K speed limit and a ton of traffic lights was even dumber. Cities should have ZERO say when it comes to such roads.

LOL at your comment about convoluted interchanges in Calgary. Like I said above, cities should have ZERO (as in FUCK ALL) say when it comes to roads that are part of the national highway system. Calgary's transportation planners are the worst but Vancouver's are giving them a run for the title. The province needs to be in charge of all such road projects. Do them all as P3s and toll where necessary. With the outrageous amounts of gas tax we pay there's no reason not to have limited access freeways connecting the major economic points in this country.

So you pretty much agree with what I said then, that there are a lot of improvements to make? I agree with you, the province should take leadership and improve our trunk routes.

Outrageous amounts of gas tax? It's what, 10c/l? I know it'll be going up but it's still got to be one of the lowest in the non-US world. I'd happily pay more for better roads and transit.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

So you pretty much agree with what I said then, that there are a lot of improvements to make? I agree with you, the province should take leadership and improve our trunk routes.

Outrageous amounts of gas tax? It's what, 10c/l? I know it'll be going up but it's still got to be one of the lowest in the non-US world. I'd happily pay more for better roads and transit.

Lots of improvements can be made.

You're not even close concerning the gas tax. I think it's 10 cents/liter for the federal part plus some other BS tax that was put in place ages ago to fight a deficit IIRC. In AB the provincial rate is now 13 cents and I believe will be 20 cents as of January 1, 2017 (Rachel did say it's going up 7 cents/liter didn't she?). Feds will probably jack up their part of the tax as well. If it went to roads like it should I wouldn't mind but little of it does. I also couldn't care less what they pay in Europe. To be competitive we need to be concerned with what the U.S. charges and we're already way too high compared to them. It wouldn't be so bad if we actually pumped every cent of those taxes into roads instead of letting it disappear into general revenues.

This is an interesting chart for 2015 which shows the breakdown of a liter of gas for various cities in Canada. Note that this was before the latest 4 cent/liter increase in AB.



Source: http://www.nrcan.gc.ca/energy/fuel-prices/gasoline-reports/18031#sup1

[SignalHillHiker]

Our latest budget will make us the most expensive jurisdiction in which to drive in North America. Some of that is a huge increase in the provincial gas tax. I'm not thrilled but also somewhat excited. It could lead to better urban planning and help alleviate some of the stigma attached to public transit.

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by milomilo

216 is mostly fine, other than being built with 2x2 lanes for much of it.

Originally Posted by Corndogger

216 not having enough lanes in place is your typical dumbass planning for a lot of places in Canada. They think they're going to look good by keeping costs low but then a few years later end up spending even more to fix things or expand roads.

It's not really that expensive as it was designed to be expanded easily. The extra lanes aren't needed yet and probably won't be for some time, building them right away would have been a pointless expense.

Originally Posted by milomilo

Highway 2 is also mostly OK other than a few issues like the southern Red Deer exit and some cloverleafs. And of course it turns to shit south of Calgary to the border/Lethbridge.

Originally Posted by Corndogger

I believe Red Deer is going to be fixed. The province just very recently announced a big project for them involving Highway 2.

Correct, that south interchange is being completely redone.

http://www.transportation.alberta.ca...s/central.aspx -> Hwy 2 -> Interchange Upgrade - Gaetz Ave / Taylor Dr

Originally Posted by milomilo

Seriously, visit another country (or Ontario) and come back and say Alberta has high quality roads. I could go on - half the interchanges in Calgary are convoluted disasters built wrong decades ago now needing expensive fixes.

You can't really look at it through the lens of a single point in time. Highway standards have evolved over the decades, as have population growth and usage patterns. Sometimes those patterns have changed faster than either standards or construction could keep up (e.g., 63).

While many things don't make sense to you today, they were just fine when they were built, and foresight can only take you so far as what you think you will need and what how patterns evolve won'y always match up.

Budgets also only went so far, and those budgets have also seen massive cuts (Klein) before recent boomtimes, and getting infrastructure caught up again has been a huge challenge.

[Dwils01]

Originally Posted by Loco101

The good thing is that forest fires don't normally cause highways to be closed for a very long time.

Thankfully it was only closed for 4 hours. Both highways were open late last night.

My parents drove through the area a few hours before Hwy 17 was closed and the highway was pretty busy with people travelling. Hopefully not to many people got stuck there. There is not much infrastructure available in these small towns.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Lots of improvements can be made.

You're not even close concerning the gas tax. I think it's 10 cents/liter for the federal part plus some other BS tax that was put in place ages ago to fight a deficit IIRC. In AB the provincial rate is now 13 cents and I believe will be 20 cents as of January 1, 2017 (Rachel did say it's going up 7 cents/liter didn't she?). Feds will probably jack up their part of the tax as well. If it went to roads like it should I wouldn't mind but little of it does. I also couldn't care less what they pay in Europe. To be competitive we need to be concerned with what the U.S. charges and we're already way too high compared to them. It wouldn't be so bad if we actually pumped every cent of those taxes into roads instead of letting it disappear into general revenues.

I can't speak for Alberta, but here in Ontario, spending on transportation actually exceeds the provincial gas tax.

In 2015-16, Ontario collected $2.5 billion from its gas tax, and the Ministry of Transportation's budget that year was $3.4 billion.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I can't speak for Alberta, but here in Ontario, spending on transportation actually exceeds the provincial gas tax.

Manitoba as well - although that wasn't the case before 2006.

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

I can't speak for Alberta, but here in Ontario, spending on transportation actually exceeds the provincial gas tax.

In 2015-16, Ontario collected $2.5 billion from its gas tax, and the Ministry of Transportation's budget that year was $3.4 billion.

This is the case in Alberta until January 1, when the carbon tax comes in. Also since 2000/01 ish half of the provincial gas tax collected in Calgary and Edmonton is transferred to cities.

I can't think off the top of my head any 'ring fenced' revenues in Canada anymore, at least at the provincial and federal levels. It is a bad budget practice.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

This is the case in Alberta until January 1, when the carbon tax comes in. Also since 2000/01 ish half of the provincial gas tax collected in Calgary and Edmonton is transferred to cities.

I can't think off the top of my head any 'ring fenced' revenues in Canada anymore, at least at the provincial and federal levels. It is a bad budget practice.

Ontario sort of has this with gas tax funding for transit (the government announced in 2014 that 7.5 cents of the gas collected for the next 10 years would be dedicated to transit, but they simply figured what 7.5 cents of gas tax is worth and spent that amount for transit out of general revenues). We are about to have it for the carbon tax, though. The provincial legislation for the Ontario Cap and Trade program requires that money raised from selling carbon credits must be spent on the provincial climate change plan.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ I had forgotten carbon charges. Yes, BC and Ontario has a type of ring fence, and Alberta soon will.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

^ I had forgotten carbon charges. Yes, BC and Ontario has a type of ring fence, and Alberta soon will.

How long will that last before those taxes end up in general revenue like everything else?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

How long will that last before those taxes end up in general revenue like everything else?

In Ontario, the rule that money from the carbon tax has to put into climate change initiatives is hardcoded in legislation, so if that money was to shift into general revenues, the government would have to amend the law. While that's easy enough for a majority government to do, any attempt to do so would attract attention from opposition politicians and the media.. so, at the very least, it could not be done quietly.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Daveography

You can't really look at it through the lens of a single point in time. Highway standards have evolved over the decades, as have population growth and usage patterns. Sometimes those patterns have changed faster than either standards or construction could keep up (e.g., 63).

While many things don't make sense to you today, they were just fine when they were built, and foresight can only take you so far as what you think you will need and what how patterns evolve won'y always match up.

Budgets also only went so far, and those budgets have also seen massive cuts (Klein) before recent boomtimes, and getting infrastructure caught up again has been a huge challenge.

While what you say is true for some roads, there are some interchanges in Calgary and the rest of the province that are just bizarre. Things like the Crowchild/Bow Trail interchange, 14th and Bow/9th, Deerfoot/Anderson/BBT, Connors Road/98th Ave in Edmonton... they all look like they were designed by the same person, who must have been doing acid or something at the time, as they look like those spiderwebs made by drug induced spiders. Not only are these constructions dangerous and inefficient, ignoring any road building guidelines, but they also look overly built and expensive. And even more expensive now to fix.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

In Ontario, the rule that money from the carbon tax has to put into climate change initiatives is hardcoded in legislation, so if that money was to shift into general revenues, the government would have to amend the law. While that's easy enough for a majority government to do, any attempt to do so would attract attention from opposition politicians and the media.. so, at the very least, it could not be done quietly.

AB had a law that was enshrined into legislation saying the province couldn't go into debt. That didn't long very long!

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

While what you say is true for some roads, there are some interchanges in Calgary and the rest of the province that are just bizarre. Things like the Crowchild/Bow Trail interchange, 14th and Bow/9th, Deerfoot/Anderson/BBT, Connors Road/98th Ave in Edmonton... they all look like they were designed by the same person, who must have been doing acid or something at the time, as they look like those spiderwebs made by drug induced spiders. Not only are these constructions dangerous and inefficient, ignoring any road building guidelines, but they also look overly built and expensive. And even more expensive now to fix.

The examples you give aren't overbuilt at all. Exact opposite. Deerfoot Trail is the poster child for how not to design a freeway. The southern end of it that the province designed and built is a well-designed road. The city's transportation planners are the worst. If there was a vote to privatize that entire department I would say "yes" in a heartbeat. Or let the province take over all of the major roads. At least they have people who know what in the hell they're doing.

[milomilo]

I mean overbuilt as in needlessly complicated, not in a good way. The interchanges I mentioned have far too many needless flyovers/loops when they could have been simpler, more efficient and cheaper.

If they'd just put some lights on Bow Trail and made the interchange with Crowchild a diamond or half cloverleaf, decades of commuter misery would have been eliminated. It would have been cheaper then, and far cheaper in the future. But no, some idiot decided to crayon all over a city map and somehow his moronic plan got built.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

The examples you give aren't overbuilt at all. Exact opposite. Deerfoot Trail is the poster child for how not to design a freeway. The southern end of it that the province designed and built is a well-designed road. The city's transportation planners are the worst. If there was a vote to privatize that entire department I would say "yes" in a heartbeat. Or let the province take over all of the major roads. At least they have people who know what in the hell they're doing.

Yeah, Deerfoot is an absolute mess except the part south of the Bow River. Every single interchange a different (horrible) design, lanes that begin and end out of nowhere, terrible road markings, terrible signage, terrible weave lanes, traffic lights everywhere, in general just terrible everything. I really have no idea how an educated traffic engineer could have come up with such an awful design.

[Daveography]

Originally Posted by milomilo

While what you say is true for some roads, there are some interchanges in Calgary and the rest of the province that are just bizarre. Things like the Crowchild/Bow Trail interchange, 14th and Bow/9th, Deerfoot/Anderson/BBT, Connors Road/98th Ave in Edmonton... they all look like they were designed by the same person, who must have been doing acid or something at the time, as they look like those spiderwebs made by drug induced spiders. Not only are these constructions dangerous and inefficient, ignoring any road building guidelines, but they also look overly built and expensive. And even more expensive now to fix.

Can't speak much to most of those, but they were obviously designed to be free-flowing but with lower speed limits than one expects from today's modern freeways. This was a common theme when many of these interchanges were built.

Connors / 98 Ave was an interim design which was to be replaced by a larger interchange connecting criss-crossing freeways around the downtown core as part of the city's METS Plan:



See more about that here:
http://albertaroads.homestead.com/edmonton/plans/

Thankfully, that long-term plan was scrapped, but vestiges of it like that interchange remain, and I would love nothing more than to see it pared down into a simpler set of intersections and the excess land returned to being parkland.

So my point stands that you can't look at these with just modern sensibilities without considering the history - the standards at the time, the state of roadway planning in North America, etc. Of course they're not what one would expect of a modern roadway, because they're not modern roadways.