Highways in Canada

[SignalHillHiker]

Originally Posted by MolsonExport

There is a much stronger business case for a fixed link to Vancouver Island, with its larger population. But both Van Island and Newfoundland Island face extreme engineering challenges (depth, mostly, but also distance) for a fixed link, with the latter also facing the huge challenges of microscopic population density along the access, and a multi-province jurisdiction.

http://www.economist.com/node/2254532

It will never happen, say I. The bridge to PEI is child's play next to some fixed link (bridge/tunnel or both) across the straight of Belle Isle.

You're probably right - but I do think if there was a highway on Quebec's North Shore it'd be the most logical, affordable route. The last study we did on a fixed link showed it wasn't viable at that time, but not tremendously so. And that was without the North Shore route. We're doing another study right now, broke as we are, because there's a chance it could be cheaper than our status quo. Our ferry service to Labrador costs us more than PEI's bridge.

With a North Shore highway to replace the current route through the Maritimes, it'd almost have to be the best option. Almost everything consumed by 500,000 people would use the route. It would cut at least half a day off the trip for every single truck.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/labrador-tunnel-danny-dumaresque-1.3572582

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Outside of Ontario and Quebec there is no body overseeing major roads being built to good standards......

You’re joking….. Right?

Ever driven in New Brunswick? Closest I’ve come to feeling I’m driving on a US Interstate is the TCH through New Brunswick with its wide wooded medians, paved shoulders and interchange structures. I would almost say overbuilt in places for the traffic, but considering the safety aspect...to a very high standard.

Also the mile upon mile of wildlife fencing in accident prone areas.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

Are you claiming the major roads in AB aren't being built to high standards? I think that's the first time I've heard anyone make that claim when it comes to AB. If you had said we don't build them in a timely manner (I don't mean we take forever to construct them but that we take too long to actually start building them) I would totally agree with you. When it comes to building infrastructure in this country we're often worse than third-world countries. The sad thing is that it has nothing to do with being able to afford to do so but a lack of political will to do the right thing and spend the money. If we were just starting off now I swear we wouldn't even have electricity in the vast majority of the country let alone freeways.

It's only recently with Stoney Trail where we see examples of well built roads, but look at some of our other major routes - Highway 43, 63, Highway 1 from Calgary east (the list goes on), they all have multitudes of issues. Definitely not high standard.

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

You’re joking….. Right?

Ever driven in New Brunswick? Closest I’ve come to feeling I’m driving on a US Interstate is the TCH through New Brunswick with its wide wooded medians, paved shoulders and interchange structures. I would almost say overbuilt in places for the traffic, but considering the safety aspect...to a very high standard.

Also the mile upon mile of wildlife fencing in accident prone areas.

Let me clarify. I'll use the UK as an example where they have Motorways - these are legally a different road, the types of vehicles on them are restricted as is access, there is a government body responsible for them and their maintenance, and they have strict design standards. As a result they are a high quality road (usually) and will be your choice of route on a long distance journey. Other countries have similar systems.

Canada has a hodge podge of provincial roads. I admit I have little knowledge of NB, but Quebec and Ontario have something similar to what I described in the previous paragraph. The rest of the provinces have a legacy of crappily built 50s freeways, with newer ones built better but little consistency of standards.

I definitely don't think we should have a network of freeways to nowhere, but some sort of national guidelines etc would be a start. Just advertising that National Highway map and signing the routes would be good - to get around the different provincial numbering systems you could just dual number the routes, eg "Ontario 400, TCH 1".

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by ghYHZ

I notice that the hull design is considerably different from BC Ferries/WA State Ferries. I suspect that this design is utilized as they traverse heavier/stormier seas? 6 hours is also a lengthy ride. Are private cabins also available to passengers as a result?

BTW, the BC Ferry main runs between the Metro Vancouver and Van Isle are 1 1/2 hours in length (a 3rd mid-island crossing is 2 hours). And much of the fleet on the Van Isle main runs are also double-ended:

[SignalHillHiker]

They have private cabins, yes. And restaurants, shops, live entertainment, etc. The Channel-Port aux Basques ferry is 6 hours and docks about 10 hours drive from St. John's. The Argentina ferry is 18 hours and docks about 1.5 hours from St. John's.

The ferries are designed to travel through pack ice. They need an icebreaker escort for anything more. It can get bad in that strait.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/nova-...sday-with-40-passengers-aboard-1.3002635

[ghYHZ]

Originally Posted by Stingray2004

I notice that the hull design is considerably different from BC Ferries/WA State Ferries. I suspect that this design is utilized as they traverse heavier/stormier seas? 6 hours is also a lengthy ride. Are private cabins also available to passengers as a result?

North Sydney to Port-aux-Basques takes 5 to 6 hrs and the crossing to Argentia NL..... about 16 hrs. Although the routes between Nova Scotia and Newfoundland are farther south than any route taken by BC Ferries..... for a couple of months each winter these crossings can be clogged with ice so they are classified as 'Northern Baltic Class 1A' ice-breaking ferries and have a much different hull design.

This past winter was relatively ice free compared to a year ago:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scoti...ard-for-heavy-ice-breaker-help-1.2970976

There's a full range of cabins, business-class type seating, dining and lounges on board. Click on the Photo gallery on Marine Atlantic’s web page:

https://www.marineatlantic.ca/en/media/Photo-Galleries/

[ghYHZ]

Winter crossing to Port-aux-Basques NL:

[eternallyme]

As for the two choke points, the western choke point (Kenora to West Hawk Lake) could easily be mitigated by a low-standard route connecting MB-312 to Whitefish Road (about 10 km), upgrading Whitefish Road to secondary highway standards (2 lane, paved, but frequent tight turns) and then down ON-596 to Kenora.

Regarding those western Interstates, I believe on I-94 in Montana, the lowest traffic is about 4,000 east of Billings, and I-90 through Montana and Wyoming into South Dakota rarely gets much above 5,000 outside of urban areas, with a few sections around 3,000. Likewise for I-70 in Utah (which was very expensive too). I-10 and I-40 are much busier (I believe neither drop much below 10,000 for any significant length of time) since many more trucks use them.

[eternallyme]

What would be the cost difference on an east-west TCH twinning across northern Ontario (for the entire length) if it was built these ways?

1) Full freeway for entire length, rebuilt to 120 km/h design speed

2) Twinned for entire length, mostly at-grade intersections but interchanges where signals or situations warranted (freeway on the busiest sections), rebuilt to 120 km/h design speed

3) Twinned for entire length, no additional control of access (all signals remain or are built as such), rebuilt to 120 km/h design speed

4) Widened to 4 lanes (with median) for entire length, no change to design or additional access control

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

It's only recently with Stoney Trail where we see examples of well built roads, but look at some of our other major routes - Highway 43, 63, Highway 1 from Calgary east (the list goes on), they all have multitudes of issues. Definitely not high standard.

I definitely don't think we should have a network of freeways to nowhere, but some sort of national guidelines etc would be a start. Just advertising that National Highway map and signing the routes would be good - to get around the different provincial numbering systems you could just dual number the routes, eg "Ontario 400, TCH 1".

You're claiming that Highways 43 and 63 are low standard after all of the work that's been done on them? What's wrong with Highway 2 other than the clusterfuck the City of Calgary imposed on us way back? The 216 around Edmonton is low quality? Man, you must have very high standards. Yeah, in places Highway 1 east of the city has some issues but it's a lot better than it used to be. They need to get rid of all of the uncontrolled access points on major roads in this country for safety purposes alone.

There are plenty of good highways in Canada of very high standard. The problem is they don't form a continuous network to connect the entire country--at least the key economic points--which is vital for an efficient and competitive distribution network and for our economy. Given how lowly you think of our roads I'm surprised you're not in favor of an Interstate-quality system in Canada.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

What would be the cost difference on an east-west TCH twinning across northern Ontario (for the entire length) if it was built these ways?

1) Full freeway for entire length, rebuilt to 120 km/h design speed

2) Twinned for entire length, mostly at-grade intersections but interchanges where signals or situations warranted (freeway on the busiest sections), rebuilt to 120 km/h design speed

3) Twinned for entire length, no additional control of access (all signals remain or are built as such), rebuilt to 120 km/h design speed

4) Widened to 4 lanes (with median) for entire length, no change to design or additional access control

So typically Canadian to even consider options that only third-world countries would even dream to implement. Either do it right or don't waste any money at all. This "it's good enough" philosophy needs to be killed off before we actually do become a third-world country ourselves.

[GreaterMontréal]

Even though the speed limit is 100km/h on A-20, the trafic look more like 130km/h between Montréal and Quebec City. Last year, after we passed a construction zone, was the crasziest drive I took, ever, on A-20, everyone was traveling at 140 km/h, even the soccer mom, all the way from Saint-Hyacinthe to A-55 North (towards Trois-Rivières). 75km . rarely we see cops on A-20. There is not point to rebuilt to 120 km/h design speed. On A-15 des Laurentides, 130km/h is tolerated most of the time during the rush hour.

[jmt18325]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

So typically Canadian to even consider options that only third-world countries would even dream to implement

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_population_density

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by jmt18325

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_and_territories_by_population_density

Yep. You don't see limited access highways across Australia, for example, for the same reason you don't see them across Canada.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Corndogger

You're claiming that Highways 43 and 63 are low standard after all of the work that's been done on them? What's wrong with Highway 2 other than the clusterfuck the City of Calgary imposed on us way back? The 216 around Edmonton is low quality? Man, you must have very high standards. Yeah, in places Highway 1 east of the city has some issues but it's a lot better than it used to be. They need to get rid of all of the uncontrolled access points on major roads in this country for safety purposes alone.

There are plenty of good highways in Canada of very high standard. The problem is they don't form a continuous network to connect the entire country--at least the key economic points--which is vital for an efficient and competitive distribution network and for our economy. Given how lowly you think of our roads I'm surprised you're not in favor of an Interstate-quality system in Canada.

216 is mostly fine, other than being built with 2x2 lanes for much of it. Highway 2 is also mostly OK other than a few issues like the southern Red Deer exit and some cloverleafs. And of course it turns to shit south of Calgary to the border/Lethbridge.

Highway 43 has only recently been twinned most of the way up to GP, but there are still sections where traffic has to slow down for lights at Whitecourt, Valley View and GP etc. GP being the biggest shitshow with plenty of oilfield trucks being forced through the centre of town, which luckily looks to be being solved. Not only that, the road surface has subsided massively and is in sorry state.

Highway 63, despite being the single road to the economic engine of our province that all our hopes and dreams are based on, still hasn't been fully twinned and that's only the northern road. I don't think there are any plans to twin the roads north of Edmonton.

Highway 1 is great west of Calgary other than the pointless speed limit reduction through Banff, but being routed across 16th Ave is embarrassing. To the east there are the slowdowns through Strathmore, Medicine Hat etc.

And with all of these there is the problem that every piddly little farm road is allowed unrestricted access to and across these major roads. This also means that left turning traffic has to use the passing lanes - dangerous and encouraging bad driving. But then again it seems the standard 'keep right unless to pass' isn't a thing here.

Seriously, visit another country (or Ontario) and come back and say Alberta has high quality roads. I could go on - half the interchanges in Calgary are convoluted disasters built wrong decades ago now needing expensive fixes.

It would be nice if they painted the lines too.

[eternallyme]

Originally Posted by GreaterMontréal

Even though the speed limit is 100km/h on A-20, the trafic look more like 130km/h between Montréal and Quebec City. Last year, after we passed a construction zone, was the crasziest drive I took, ever, on A-20, everyone was traveling at 140 km/h, even the soccer mom, all the way from Saint-Hyacinthe to A-55 North (towards Trois-Rivières). 75km . rarely we see cops on A-20. There is not point to rebuilt to 120 km/h design speed. On A-15 des Laurentides, 130km/h is tolerated most of the time during the rush hour.

Has there been a push to increase the speed limit there?

[GreaterMontréal]

Originally Posted by eternallyme

Has there been a push to increase the speed limit there?

not really, 130km/h is enough. you can't go faster anyway, too much trafic. During the evening rush hour, it's often bumber to bumber between Montréal and Saint-Hyacinthe, 80km/h. one of the safest highway there is in Quebec.

[Dwils01]

Eastern Canada and Western Canada are cut off again because both Hwy 11 and 17 are currently closed due to two separate forest fires.

Hwy 11 is closed between Hearst and Long Lac and Hwy 17 is closed at White River.

[vid]

Highway 11 is also at risk of being doubly closed due to forest fires around Geraldton, which is being threatened by three separate out of control fires at the moment.

[Corndogger]

Originally Posted by milomilo

216 is mostly fine, other than being built with 2x2 lanes for much of it. Highway 2 is also mostly OK other than a few issues like the southern Red Deer exit and some cloverleafs. And of course it turns to shit south of Calgary to the border/Lethbridge.

Highway 43 has only recently been twinned most of the way up to GP, but there are still sections where traffic has to slow down for lights at Whitecourt, Valley View and GP etc. GP being the biggest shitshow with plenty of oilfield trucks being forced through the centre of town, which luckily looks to be being solved. Not only that, the road surface has subsided massively and is in sorry state.

Highway 63, despite being the single road to the economic engine of our province that all our hopes and dreams are based on, still hasn't been fully twinned and that's only the northern road. I don't think there are any plans to twin the roads north of Edmonton.

Highway 1 is great west of Calgary other than the pointless speed limit reduction through Banff, but being routed across 16th Ave is embarrassing. To the east there are the slowdowns through Strathmore, Medicine Hat etc.

And with all of these there is the problem that every piddly little farm road is allowed unrestricted access to and across these major roads. This also means that left turning traffic has to use the passing lanes - dangerous and encouraging bad driving. But then again it seems the standard 'keep right unless to pass' isn't a thing here.

Seriously, visit another country (or Ontario) and come back and say Alberta has high quality roads. I could go on - half the interchanges in Calgary are convoluted disasters built wrong decades ago now needing expensive fixes.

It would be nice if they painted the lines too.

I believe Red Deer is going to be fixed. The province just very recently announced a big project for them involving Highway 2.

I agree that all of the unrestricted access is a problem but if it can fixed in places such as Montana and ND that have way less people than we do then it should be fixable here.

Work on Highway 63 isn't done yet. It's going to be fully twinned. The roads from Edmonton leading to it should be as well.

216 not having enough lanes in place is your typical dumbass planning for a lot of places in Canada. They think they're going to look good by keeping costs low but then a few years later end up spending even more to fix things or expand roads. The 201 in Calgary was barely five years old when they started to add lanes to it in the NW.

Routing the Trans-Canada thru the middle of Calgary on 16 Avenue was and is stupid. Spending ~$120 million to make part of it an urban boulevard with a 50K speed limit and a ton of traffic lights was even dumber. Cities should have ZERO say when it comes to such roads.

LOL at your comment about convoluted interchanges in Calgary. Like I said above, cities should have ZERO (as in FUCK ALL) say when it comes to roads that are part of the national highway system. Calgary's transportation planners are the worst but Vancouver's are giving them a run for the title. The province needs to be in charge of all such road projects. Do them all as P3s and toll where necessary. With the outrageous amounts of gas tax we pay there's no reason not to have limited access freeways connecting the major economic points in this country.