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  #181  
Old Posted May 4, 2016, 12:43 AM
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I'm glad I voted for Helmer, and he won. I remember when he was running, I sent him a nice email asking that he "please beat that bloated meat wagon", as he was actually worthy of holding a public office spot.

Top notch guy it seems
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  #182  
Old Posted May 4, 2016, 4:02 PM
jaradthescot jaradthescot is offline
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http://www.am980.ca/2016/05/04/transit-tension/

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The motion failed on a 7 – 7 tie, with those voting in favour of a public input session being Councillors Helmer, Mo Salih, Virginia Ridley, Josh Morgan, Stephen Turner, Bill Armstrong, and Phil Squire.

The rest voted against the motion, while Councillor Jared Zaifman was not present.

Mayor Matt Brown confirmed last week that he is siding with city staff’s new recommendation.
This is a motion to simply delay the vote until public consultation can occur. You'll note that of the members voting for a delay, they are all unanimously pro-LRT, so I think we can see this as a preview of how the final LRT-BRT vote will go on Thursday. This is not looking good. This is looking decidedly ungood.
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  #183  
Old Posted May 6, 2016, 3:02 AM
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boo, hiss, mayor Brown. Majorly disappointed.
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  #184  
Old Posted May 6, 2016, 5:39 PM
Stevo26 Stevo26 is offline
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boo, hiss, mayor Brown. Majorly disappointed.
At first I thought I liked Brown, as he seemed to have some genuinely progressive ideas. Now he seems to be the puppet of city manager Art Zuidema and nay-sayers on city council who would really rather not see the city progress, if it means taking calculated risks.

Boo, hiss, indeed.
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  #185  
Old Posted May 6, 2016, 6:27 PM
GreatTallNorth2 GreatTallNorth2 is offline
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I feel the same. Thankfully he is no JoFo, but progressive he is not. He is the one that is trying to ram BRT down our throat and did not want any more public input.
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  #186  
Old Posted May 8, 2016, 8:38 PM
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Last ditch effort to bring back LRT. Sign the petition, and spread the word if you can!

http://www.helmer.ca/lrt
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  #187  
Old Posted May 9, 2016, 2:03 PM
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Thanks for posting, good to see some of the city councilors taking a stand and listing out some facts.

Signed and sent to a bunch of people, hopefully everyone does the same. Kind of sad to see so far less than 400 signatures, mostly because people just don't know about it.

Last edited by MrSlippery519; May 9, 2016 at 2:22 PM.
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  #188  
Old Posted May 9, 2016, 3:09 PM
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Message from the Mayor

London’s Rapid Transit plan will be the largest investment in our City’s history. It is a project that began in earnest in September of 2014 with the launch of the Environmental Assessment, and it represents necessary investment in improving our transit system. Over 14,0000 Londoners engaged in the consultation for a rapid transit system for London.

In my opinion, based on the evidence presented in the business case, full BRT is the right way to go. This system will provide us the same tunnels, same infrastructure improvements, same high quality stations, dedicated lanes, great vehicles, great experience that so many Londoners indicated as a necessity for a great Rapid Transit system. Additionally, full BRT will cost taxpayers $300 million less than the preliminary preferred option of the hybrid LRT/BRT model. We can also implement full BRT faster and see improvements sooner.

This decision is one our Council is looking at very carefully. Thank you to all of you, who have taken the time to write in and share your thoughts with me. I would encourage you to stay engaged with the process as it unfolds.

This Sunday is Mother’s Day and I would like to wish all the moms in our community a very Happy Mother’s Day. Hope you have a relaxing day with family and friends.

As always, I look forward to hearing from you. You can connect with me via email: [email protected] and/or follow me on Twitter@MayorMattBrown and on Facebook at www.facebook.com/MattBrownLondon.

Sincerely,

Mayor Matt Brown
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  #189  
Old Posted May 9, 2016, 3:19 PM
GreatTallNorth2 GreatTallNorth2 is offline
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Originally Posted by haljackey View Post
Message from the Mayor

London’s Rapid Transit plan will be the largest investment in our City’s history. It is a project that began in earnest in September of 2014 with the launch of the Environmental Assessment, and it represents necessary investment in improving our transit system. Over 14,0000 Londoners engaged in the consultation for a rapid transit system for London.

In my opinion, based on the evidence presented in the business case, full BRT is the right way to go. This system will provide us the same tunnels, same infrastructure improvements, same high quality stations, dedicated lanes, great vehicles, great experience that so many Londoners indicated as a necessity for a great Rapid Transit system. Additionally, full BRT will cost taxpayers $300 million less than the preliminary preferred option of the hybrid LRT/BRT model. We can also implement full BRT faster and see improvements sooner.

This decision is one our Council is looking at very carefully. Thank you to all of you, who have taken the time to write in and share your thoughts with me. I would encourage you to stay engaged with the process as it unfolds.

This Sunday is Mother’s Day and I would like to wish all the moms in our community a very Happy Mother’s Day. Hope you have a relaxing day with family and friends.

As always, I look forward to hearing from you. You can connect with me via email: [email protected] and/or follow me on Twitter@MayorMattBrown and on Facebook at www.facebook.com/MattBrownLondon.

Sincerely,

Mayor Matt Brown
I think it is misleading for him to say that it will cost $300 million less than the hybrid plan. The money is allocated from the province and will be spent somewhere else if London doesn't take it. I know we haven't received the money yet, but we haven't really asked for it either. Why not ask for the full LRT or at least the Hybrid Plan.

Funny that Matty didn't mention that with the 14,000 citizens engaged, the feedback was well over 50% in favour of either HYBRID or LRT.
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  #190  
Old Posted May 9, 2016, 3:47 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2 View Post
I think it is misleading for him to say that it will cost $300 million less than the hybrid plan. The money is allocated from the province and will be spent somewhere else if London doesn't take it. I know we haven't received the money yet, but we haven't really asked for it either. Why not ask for the full LRT or at least the Hybrid Plan.

Funny that Matty didn't mention that with the 14,000 citizens engaged, the feedback was well over 50% in favour of either HYBRID or LRT.
I noticed that to. Taking into account only population (London being 470k out of 13.6m in Ontario) Londoners will pay a grand total of $10,367.65 extra for LRT. Alternatively, if another city gets the $300m, as is highly probable, London's money will flow to a different city once again. Just as it has consistently since London never has any major infrastructure projects that rely on provincial funding.
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  #191  
Old Posted May 9, 2016, 4:53 PM
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Originally Posted by haljackey View Post
Last ditch effort to bring back LRT. Sign the petition, and spread the word if you can!

http://www.helmer.ca/lrt
thanks, just signed.
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  #192  
Old Posted May 9, 2016, 6:15 PM
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Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2 View Post
I think it is misleading for him to say that it will cost $300 million less than the hybrid plan. The money is allocated from the province and will be spent somewhere else if London doesn't take it. I know we haven't received the money yet, but we haven't really asked for it either. Why not ask for the full LRT or at least the Hybrid Plan.

Funny that Matty didn't mention that with the 14,000 citizens engaged, the feedback was well over 50% in favour of either HYBRID or LRT.
That is extremely misleading...its not even misleading it is a flat out lie. Considering and I quote "London’s share of construction costs will be capped at $125 million that will come from development charges tacked onto new construction over the next 20 years"

Where did this message come from?

What I do not understand is, we have not even asked for the money yet as far as I know. Wasn't it Matt Brown who said if you dont ask you wont get...why not go with the LRT proposal and if the government pushes back and says okay we are only giving you 500 million then we tweak the plan accordingly.
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  #193  
Old Posted May 11, 2016, 12:41 PM
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  #194  
Old Posted May 11, 2016, 1:08 PM
GreatTallNorth2 GreatTallNorth2 is offline
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Typical London attitude - we cannot endure short term pain for long term gain as it will disrupt our lives. Imagine if Boston decided not to do the "Big Dig". Progress costs money and causes pain, but in the long run, you get a better city.
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  #195  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by haljackey View Post
No matter how you sell it, BRT is just bus service.
This just isn't true.

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Originally Posted by haljackey View Post
There's a certain stigma about riding the bus, and that won't go away with dedicated bus lanes and higher frequencies.
You won't lower yourself to "riding the bus," maybe, but thousands of other people do. I find bus service useful. I guess I didn't get the memo that I'm a low-life slob who isn't important enough to get train service if I take the bus to work.

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Originally Posted by haljackey View Post
Light rail or nothing in my mind.
It would be more useful to hear from a transit advocate. I tend to agree with the consensus hear that at least one of Shift's corridors calls for LRT, but BRT is not "just bus service" (as if bus service is only for the lower orders, and not something any real city should force its citizens to suffer), and building BRT with dedicated lanes, high frequency, and modern amenities will build ridership to the point where LRT might be undeniably justified on either Oxford or Wellington, or both, a few years down the road. Or, maybe since it's "light rail or nothing," London ought not to invest in rapid transit at all, and instead double (triple?) down on car lanes and suburban sprawl, cut LTC's funding to pay for more roads.
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  #196  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 3:53 AM
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IMO the whole SHIFT plan has fundamental issues, notwithstanding the LRT vs. BRT debate.

The current plan is going to eviscerate King st. From being a major downtown arterial and make is a one way, 1 lane route, having contraflow RT going westbound, despite being an eastbound one way. The current plan really wants to make old east village by Dundas "happen" instead of using Queens Ave & King St.

There's no new proposed Forks of the Thames, or Western area bridge. Traffic is already horrendous in these areas and should have new crossings regardless of RT plans. Let alone not maintaining the current capacity, but reducing it will just compound this and make the whole shift more unpalatable.

Richmond tunnel being exclusive to RT is beyond stupid. Needs to include all traffic, otherwise downtown through Richmond will be literal gridlock during and after construction.
----
The LRT vs. BRT seems to be to placate stakeholders, Western being a big one who were not on board wih LRT. The cost will be the justification and "mysterious" upper levels that Deputy Mayor Cassady seem to be putting the breaks on any LRT. I don't think the general public knows the level of expropriation that will come, just the price at this point whuch will cause its own stink im sure.

Bottom line London needs to get a better and more coherent plan together, and show the benefit to the public, otherwise I see this 🞵🞵🞵🞵 going sideways, ala 402 ring route did in the 70s...
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  #197  
Old Posted May 12, 2016, 3:07 PM
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Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues View Post
This just isn't true.



You won't lower yourself to "riding the bus," maybe, but thousands of other people do. I find bus service useful. I guess I didn't get the memo that I'm a low-life slob who isn't important enough to get train service if I take the bus to work.



It would be more useful to hear from a transit advocate. I tend to agree with the consensus hear that at least one of Shift's corridors calls for LRT, but BRT is not "just bus service" (as if bus service is only for the lower orders, and not something any real city should force its citizens to suffer), and building BRT with dedicated lanes, high frequency, and modern amenities will build ridership to the point where LRT might be undeniably justified on either Oxford or Wellington, or both, a few years down the road. Or, maybe since it's "light rail or nothing," London ought not to invest in rapid transit at all, and instead double (triple?) down on car lanes and suburban sprawl, cut LTC's funding to pay for more roads.
I can be that transit advocate. BRT is just better buses. Better, yes, but still buses. You can't say that BRT isn't buses, so I don't know why you're trying to make that argument. I use the bus about 80% of the time for my work commutes and if there's LRT I'll continue to use transit. If BRT is approved, I'm going to be looking at taking a car. It's not about being a "low-life slob" it's about the general perception that is bestowed upon buses and the enjoyability of the ride. Even top-of-the-line buses are still "just buses" and don't get rid of that stigma.

Objectively -- price not being an issue -- LRT is better. Whether or not it's worth the extra expense is debatable (I think everyone knows my opinion) but no one can say that BRT is just as good on all metrics even if the price was the same.
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  #198  
Old Posted May 16, 2016, 1:40 AM
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Originally Posted by GreatTallNorth2 View Post
Typical London attitude - we cannot endure short term pain for long term gain as it will disrupt our lives. Imagine if Boston decided not to do the "Big Dig". Progress costs money and causes pain, but in the long run, you get a better city.
Or imagine if businesses along Toronto's Yonge Street objected to the building of the first section of the subway that opened in 1954. Yonge was closed to traffic downtown for several years for the subway's construction, I think.
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  #199  
Old Posted May 16, 2016, 1:49 AM
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Originally Posted by HillStreetBlues View Post
You won't lower yourself to "riding the bus," maybe, but thousands of other people do. I find bus service useful. I guess I didn't get the memo that I'm a low-life slob who isn't important enough to get train service if I take the bus to work.
I personally don't see anything wrong with taking buses, but I can appreciate the comment. There is still a widespread belief in mid-size and smaller cities that public transit - particularly buses - are a form of welfare for people who can't afford to buy a car. And you see it manifest in the media - several years ago Norfolk County was talking about establishing a public transit system in Simcoe, specifically talking about helping "seniors" and "the poor" with no mention of the environment and getting cars off the road. Even in Toronto, Mayor John Tory commented a year ago that public transit is "a means of getting around for people who can’t afford a car". It's an outdated mentality but it still persists.

I know myself from when I went to Fanshawe College, some of my classmates absolutely refused to ever use buses. There was one who preferred to stay home (near Oxford and Wharncliffe) and fail an assignment when his truck broke down instead of taking the bus - he was infuriated when I suggested to him that he could simply hop on a 17 Oxford West east to the college to show up for our presentation. Others said they would rather spend thousands of dollars per year in parking costs at the college than ever be seen using London Transit, even though the pass was included in tuition. I'm not sure if this was a Fanshawe thing but in my five years at Western I never once heard such comments about buses.

I'm not sure where that mentality came from in London, but I never saw myself as lesser for taking London Transit.

Last edited by manny_santos; May 16, 2016 at 2:00 AM.
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  #200  
Old Posted May 16, 2016, 2:12 AM
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Originally Posted by jaradthescot View Post
I can be that transit advocate. BRT is just better buses. Better, yes, but still buses. You can't say that BRT isn't buses, so I don't know why you're trying to make that argument. I use the bus about 80% of the time for my work commutes and if there's LRT I'll continue to use transit. If BRT is approved, I'm going to be looking at taking a car. It's not about being a "low-life slob" it's about the general perception that is bestowed upon buses and the enjoyability of the ride. Even top-of-the-line buses are still "just buses" and don't get rid of that stigma.

Objectively -- price not being an issue -- LRT is better. Whether or not it's worth the extra expense is debatable (I think everyone knows my opinion) but no one can say that BRT is just as good on all metrics even if the price was the same.
BRT, if it is going to be done, has to be done right and traffic signals need to be adjusted before the BRT system is established. Additionally it can't have closely spaced stops, and separate ROWs can't just arbitrarily disappear. At least in my experience, these things often get missed:

- York Region's VIVA system has a few choke points where traffic signal timings create needless delays, particularly in locations where buses need to turn left.

- The Mexico City BRT, at least when I checked it out a few years ago, was incredibly slow through the central part of the city (compared to the competing subway lines). It had its own ROW, but it had numerous choke points where buses had to wait at very long red lights that featured no transit priority signals.

- The recently established 185 Don Mills Rocket on the TTC is faster than the overlapping 25 Don Mills route by a meagre one minute, going from Fairview Mall to Pape Station. It is riddled with frequent stops, zero transit priority signals, and a choke point where a diamond lane mysteriously ends immediately before the bus has to turn right. During morning rush hour, the bus gets stuck waiting to move left into the next lane before it can turn right off Don Mills Road onto Overlea Blvd. It's a pointless "express" bus that provides no advantage over the bus route that was already there. (Many "Rocket" TTC routes run along diamond lanes that permit only buses, taxis, and cars with multiple passengers during rush hour.)

If London does go with BRT, it needs to iron these things out completely before putting buses on the road. Otherwise, it will be a flop as it won't be any better than either taking other buses or driving.
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