Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[silvergate]

Originally Posted by roger1818

Not as inexpensive as it sounds. I gather the POW bridge is in need of major repair to make it safe for use, though I can't provide any references to confirm this (though it is over 135 years old and little has been done to it since it was purchased by the City of Ottawa about 15 years ago).

If Ottawa-Gatineau, was serious about interprovincial transit, they would get the Quebec Government to use money from Lac Leamy to extend Trillium along the Rapibus Corridor at least to the Casino. It's pretty much as win-win as you can get if that area becomes even more accessible to people of Ottawa

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by silvergate

If Ottawa-Gatineau, was serious about interprovincial transit, they would get the Quebec Government to use money from Lac Leamy to extend Trillium along the Rapibus Corridor at least to the Casino. It's pretty much as win-win as you can get if that area becomes even more accessible to people of Ottawa

According to Wikipedia, City of Gatineau officials are opposed to using the POW bridge as a transit rail link. Not sure their reasoning or if it is even true, but without their support, I don't think it can be done.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by roger1818

According to Wikipedia, City of Gatineau officials are opposed to using the POW bridge as a transit rail link. Not sure their reasoning or if it is even true, but without their support, I don't think it can be done.

It is spelt "T R A N S F E R". Nobody wants a bus, bus, train, train commute, and who could blame them. There have been problems with Rapibus and that was just a bus, bus commute. Besides, a Bayview transfer is too far west especially with riders coming from the Gatineau sector to the east.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is spelt "T R A N S F E R". Nobody wants a bus, bus, train, train commute, and who could blame them. There have been problems with Rapibus and that was just a bus, bus commute. Besides, a Bayview transfer is too far west especially with riders coming from the Gatineau sector to the east.

Maybe after coming across the bridge it could be on a separate route through downtown, maybe under Laurier and then head south along Bank or Elgin. It would give a second route to downtown.

[mykl]

In the video of the NCC meeting last week which was the first to have the mayors on board, Jim Watson made a very nonchalant comment about plans for the train to extend into Quebec. Maybe they know something we don't?

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by silvergate

If Ottawa-Gatineau, was serious about interprovincial transit, they would get the Quebec Government to use money from Lac Leamy to extend Trillium along the Rapibus Corridor at least to the Casino. It's pretty much as win-win as you can get if that area becomes even more accessible to people of Ottawa

It's a neat idea... and I've often wondered something similar myself... but would it really be "win-win"??

I mean it would really just make it *much* easier to get to the Casino... thus taking tourism/entertainment $$ away from Ottawa while getting nothing in return.

[silvergate]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

It's a neat idea... and I've often wondered something similar myself... but would it really be "win-win"??

I mean it would really just make it *much* easier to get to the Casino... thus taking tourism/entertainment $$ away from Ottawa while getting nothing in return.

It depends on whether you want to see Ottawa-Gatineau as the NCR of as Ottawa and Gatineau.

Improving access around the region might give us some short-term pains, but it could be offset by ensuring that money made in the region stays in the region. Opening up the area with rapid transit would make it easier for, say, a tourist staying at a hotel in downtown ottawa to go spend a night there.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by silvergate

It depends on whether you want to see Ottawa-Gatineau as the NCR of as Ottawa and Gatineau.

Improving access around the region might give us some short-term pains, but it could be offset by ensuring that money made in the region stays in the region. Opening up the area with rapid transit would make it easier for, say, a tourist staying at a hotel in downtown ottawa to go spend a night there.

Fair enough.... if only we could head off the transfer/transfer/transfer nonsense that Bayview is shaping up to be...

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

Fair enough.... if only we could head off the transfer/transfer/transfer nonsense that Bayview is shaping up to be...

This is what I have been complaining about ever since Jim Watson nonchalantly decided to cancel the interlining connection between the Trillium Line and the Confederation Line as a cost saving measure. And with that decision, we have also lost any possibility of interlining a West Quebec route as well via the Prince of Wales Bridge.

That little decision permanently limits the usefulness of the Trillium Line and the Prince of Wales Bridge. I know many disagree, but I believe that it is totally inappropriate to create a massive transfer station at Bayview, which is too far from the centre of the city regardless of Lebreton redevelopment possibilities. Bayview may become something important at some point in the distant future, but with limited road accesses, I really doubt that this will ever become a hub of activity. And with huge Lebreton and Zibi developments, Bayview redevelopment moves down the list. The city can only absorb so many new condos.

Now, with the Lebreton proposal starting to move forward, the possibilities of providing a second LRT route into downtown get reduced. We are quickly running out ways to properly serve the city with rail transit on a north-south axis.

I am glad that a few are starting to realize that the 'transfer, transfer, transfer' scenarios is just not going to cut it in a city this size. The reality is that by creating 'transfer, transfer, transfer' commutes, how do you ever expect to convince the majority of people to leave their cars at home especially in off-peak hours?

As far as a connection to the casino, this only make sense if it is part of a bigger plan that will serve a substantial part of Gatineau's population. A line that serves mainly casino customers will not generate enough passengers to be worth the expense of building it especially if you are requiring the vast majority of potential users to transfer.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is what I have been complaining about ever since Jim Watson nonchalantly decided to cancel the interlining connection between the Trillium Line and the Confederation Line as a cost saving measure. And with that decision, we have also lost any possibility of interlining a West Quebec route as well via the Prince of Wales Bridge.

That little decision permanently limits the usefulness of the Trillium Line and the Prince of Wales Bridge. I know many disagree, but I believe that it is totally inappropriate to create a massive transfer station at Bayview, which is too far from the centre of the city regardless of Lebreton redevelopment possibilities. Bayview may become something important at some point in the distant future, but with limited road accesses, I really doubt that this will ever become a hub of activity. And with huge Lebreton and Zibi developments, Bayview redevelopment moves down the list. The city can only absorb so many new condos.

Now, with the Lebreton proposal starting to move forward, the possibilities of providing a second LRT route into downtown get reduced. We are quickly running out ways to properly serve the city with rail transit on a north-south axis.

I am glad that a few are starting to realize that the 'transfer, transfer, transfer' scenarios is just not going to cut it in a city this size. The reality is that by creating 'transfer, transfer, transfer' commutes, how do you ever expect to convince the majority of people to leave their cars at home especially in off-peak hours?

As far as a connection to the casino, this only make sense if it is part of a bigger plan that will serve a substantial part of Gatineau's population. A line that serves mainly casino customers will not generate enough passengers to be worth the expense of building it especially if you are requiring the vast majority of potential users to transfer.

That's one thing we've always agreed upon; too many transfers. Crossing the O-Train would make 0 sense (even with a Casino station, it is quite a walk down Boulevard du Casino from the rail track/Rapibus).

All routes should lead Downtown. That is the main destination for anyone taking transit. Dropping people 3 stations away from their destination will discourage users (Bayview transfer). Even more so in Gatineau where the proposal is 3 transfers (home bus to Rapibus, Rapibus to Trillium, Trillium to Confederation).

[The Hammer]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

This is what I have been complaining about ever since Jim Watson nonchalantly decided to cancel the interlining connection between the Trillium Line and the Confederation Line as a cost saving measure. And with that decision, we have also lost any possibility of interlining a West Quebec route as well via the Prince of Wales Bridge.

That little decision permanently limits the usefulness of the Trillium Line and the Prince of Wales Bridge. I know many disagree, but I believe that it is totally inappropriate to create a massive transfer station at Bayview, which is too far from the centre of the city regardless of Lebreton redevelopment possibilities.

While interlining reduces the number of transfers riders need to make, it will drastically increase wait times across the system, on both sides of the river.
The location of Bayview is not ideal for attracting riders, but existing infrastructure makes it an ideal location for a transfer station.

Originally Posted by J.OT13

All routes should lead Downtown. That is the main destination for anyone taking transit.

For each route that runs through the downtown core, the time between vehicles on each route increases by one headway (2-3 minutes).
Interlining routes to Gatineau, Riverside South, the Airport, Baseline, and Bayshore/Kanata,
there would be 5 routes sharing track, each route limited to a minimum headway of 10-15 minutes, impacting riders on both sides of the river.


In addition to the time Gatineau riders spend waiting for their feeder buses:

A 1-transfer commute (feeder bus to interlined O-Train) would need to be carefully timed, as riders could have to wait up to 15 minutes for a train.

A 2-transfer commute (feeder bus to Trillium Line to Confederation Line) would have riders waiting a maximum of 2-3 minutes at each transfer point, for a maximum of only 6 minutes.

Even a 3-transfer commute (feeder bus to Rapibus to Trillium Line to Confederation Line) would have riders waiting up to 9 minutes, which is still less than the 1-transfer commute.


To those in favour of heavy interlining, I ask you the following:
Would you rather have reliably frequent service and quick transfers, or longer wait times across the system?

[eternallyme]

To get other routes through downtown, you need other corridors built.

[J.OT13]

Oslo Metro; you have 5-6 lines running through the one tunnel downtown.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oslo_Metro
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Tunnel

I'm proposing 3 lines through the DOTT (Bayshore and Algonquin already split at Lincoln Fields, plus Trillium). That's 6 minutes each line. Or 2 minutes between Trim and Bayview, or 3 minutes between Bayview and New Orchard. Not earth shattering.

Gatineau, Ottawa's largest suburb, needs its own tunnel with two interlined metro routes (ultimately one from Aylmer, one from Buckingham). They would meet roughly around Alexandre-Taché where they would dive under Laurier (Hull), up to the Museum of Civilization, above ground over the Alexandria (converted to two track metro and existing bike/pedestrian board walk), back underground next to the National Gallery. From there, it could go o the Rideau Centre and eventually loop through downtown terminating at Lebreton Flats or even cross back towards central Hull somewhere.

The full build out for Ottawa could be implemented by 2023. Obviously, the Gatineau line might take 30-40 years, the time to use up the Rapibus long enough for the investment to be worth it, then convert and start building the subway phase by phase. For now, converting the POW to buses should suffice.

[swimmer_spe]

Interlining could be a stopgap measure. Building other lines along other routes/streets would be a long tern solution.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by The Hammer

While interlining reduces the number of transfers riders need to make, it will drastically increase wait times across the system, on both sides of the river.
The location of Bayview is not ideal for attracting riders, but existing infrastructure makes it an ideal location for a transfer station.



For each route that runs through the downtown core, the time between vehicles on each route increases by one headway (2-3 minutes).
Interlining routes to Gatineau, Riverside South, the Airport, Baseline, and Bayshore/Kanata,
there would be 5 routes sharing track, each route limited to a minimum headway of 10-15 minutes, impacting riders on both sides of the river.


In addition to the time Gatineau riders spend waiting for their feeder buses:

A 1-transfer commute (feeder bus to interlined O-Train) would need to be carefully timed, as riders could have to wait up to 15 minutes for a train.

A 2-transfer commute (feeder bus to Trillium Line to Confederation Line) would have riders waiting a maximum of 2-3 minutes at each transfer point, for a maximum of only 6 minutes.

Even a 3-transfer commute (feeder bus to Rapibus to Trillium Line to Confederation Line) would have riders waiting up to 9 minutes, which is still less than the 1-transfer commute.


To those in favour of heavy interlining, I ask you the following:
Would you rather have reliably frequent service and quick transfers, or longer wait times across the system?

The problem with this theory is that it assumes 2 to 3 minute frequency on all routes including suburban bus routes. This is not going to happen. Wait times for transfers will be significantly longer.

I cannot imagine a three transfer commute being acceptable to the public for commutes that are 30 minutes to one hour.

And why suggest a range of 2 to 3 minute frequency? With five routes interlined, you would need to maximize frequency through the tunnel. If that is assumed 2 minute frequency, then each route would operate at 10 minute frequency. And given that interlining would extend beyond Bayview on certain routes, you will bring this down to 5 minute frequency in most central parts of the city. That I contend is very adequate for urban areas, and 10 minute frequency is very adequate for suburban areas.

But beyond all of this is the question of passenger load at Bayview. If we need trains running every 2 to 3 minutes to Gatineau, to the south and to the west because of ridership, trains at Bayview will automatically be swamped. If ridership on each route does not warrant that frequency, then we are wasting an enormous amount of money on surplus trains and power use.

If ridership west of Bayview can be handled by 5 minute frequency, south of Bayview can be handled by 5 minute frequency and 10 minute frequency to Gatineau, then interlining is feasible and makes efficient use of expensive trains. If we need more frequency than that because of ridership, then we have no choice but to build another route through downtown.

As it stands, the Trillium Line without interlining into downtown will continue to be mainly a student train. The Bayview transfer will always limit the success of the Trillium Line and 15 years of history confirms this.

[FFX-ME]

I can't believe how much Ottawa people are opposed to interlining. Nearly every metro system uses it, look at Tokyo for crying out loud, it's all interlined. People here often cite an old, half-asses, Toronto attempt at interlining and ignore the rest of the current world... Let alone the fact that the Transitway uses interlining and people love it.

The Trillium line should be interlined, end of story. It makes no sense to make people transfer in the middle of nowhere.

[lrt's friend]

Just think of it this way. The commute time to downtown from my home is about 45 minutes. Under the best case scenario, if we add just 9 minutes for additional transfers, does that not almost certainly increase my commute time? We are spending billions of dollars to accomplish that?

I was in Poland a year ago, and every city has rail transit. In order to minimize transfers, there was interlining everywhere. If you have to wait 10 minutes for a train going directly to your destination, why would you take a less direct route and transfer? Why would that even be desirable?

I don't understand this obsession with the need to have a train every 3 minutes to Westboro. Is there really that much pent up demand in Westboro? Would it make that much difference if trains ran every 5 minutes instead of every 3 minutes.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by FFX-ME

I can't believe how much Ottawa people are opposed to interlining. Nearly every metro system uses it, look at Tokyo for crying out loud, it's all interlined. People here often cite an old, half-asses, Toronto attempt at interlining and ignore the rest of the current world... Let alone the fact that the Transitway uses interlining and people love it.

The Trillium line should be interlined, end of story. It makes no sense to make people transfer in the middle of nowhere.

The issue in Toronto was that interlining between the Bloor-Danforth Line and the Yonge-Spadina Line required trains to use two different platforms where they connected. As a result, many passengers were waiting on a stairway in between the two platforms in order to catch the next train into downtown. As you can imagine, this was not convenient and there had to be safety concerns. The Toronto setup simply did not facilitate good interlining and was abandoned as a result. Furthermore, demand on the Yonge Line became a major issue and did not allow space for other routes. This was a ridership issue. We should never use the Toronto example as 'best practices'. The biggest choke point in Toronto's transit system is the Bloor-Yonge transfer. Congestion on the Yonge Line is delaying the extension of the subway beyond Finch, it is dictating that Finch LRT will not run to Yonge Street and is increasingly pushing demands for alternative routes into downtown Toronto, including the Downtown Relief Line.

[acottawa]

I think interlining has been discussed on this thread many times. I think the main obstacle remains the platforms, which are not big enough to hold passengers waiting for 4-5 trains to go by until their train arrives. The elements required to do this (very deep tunnels, second set of doors, longer platforms, etc) were eliminated before the project went to tender as a cost saving mechanism. Cities that have significant interlining have much larger platforms than are currently being built.

On the transfers, I think a lot of it depends on how things are set up. If the station is well-designed and the frequencies are high then a transfer is an afterthought.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The issue in Toronto was that interlining between the Bloor-Danforth Line and the Yonge-Spadina Line required trains to use two different platforms where they connected. As a result, many passengers were waiting on a stairway in between the two platforms in order to catch the next train into downtown. As you can imagine, this was not convenient and there had to be safety concerns. The Toronto setup simply did not facilitate good interlining and was abandoned as a result. Furthermore, demand on the Yonge Line became a major issue and did not allow space for other routes. This was a ridership issue. We should never use the Toronto example as 'best practices'. The biggest choke point in Toronto's transit system is the Bloor-Yonge transfer. Congestion on the Yonge Line is delaying the extension of the subway beyond Finch, it is dictating that Finch LRT will not run to Yonge Street and is increasingly pushing demands for alternative routes into downtown Toronto, including the Downtown Relief Line.

But that kind of proves the point. Lets say they interline at first. What happens when there is more demand on the other sections that are not interlined? You basically have locked yourself into a problem.

The Trillium line should never be interlined, and will never happen. It is connected to heavy rail and there is always the risk of a train going to far and then it enters the LRT system.

The good thing about having a transfer point is that you can see the demand. An argument for a second line downtown can be made.

The Skytrain is currently interlined. The Expo and Millennium lines are currently interlined. After the Evergreen extension is complete and opened, there will still be some trains from Expo going on the Millennium line for a station or so. It will limit the number of trains that can be used on the line.

Montreal is not interlined.

Edmonton LRT is interlined. So is the C-Train in Calgary.

Saying that the Transitway is interlined is not really a good argument. Look at how congested the Central Transitway was.