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[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Oh, come ON.

That is EXACTLY the kind of mindset that keeps NS stuck in the mud. "Don't ever change ANYTHING, because it is of some degree of importance to someone somewhere". No 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵 wonder we have such a mishmash of old crummpy buildings and cartpath streets.



It is hilarious to see you using an argument of a newly built "poor quality building" to somehow try to defend keeping these old falling-down places on May St. Have you ever heard the expression "I have eyes, but they cannot see..."?

Oh Keith, you truly like to be dramatic.

Firstly, this isn't the "Steele Auto Group" thread. My commentary was referring to heritage issues in general, mostly from considering the posts by Drybrain and someone123 on Apr. 29. However, since you think that's what I was talking about, I'll try to clear it up a little - The May Street situation is about maintaining the fibre of the neighborhood, and not specifically the structures involved, although there are some decent older homes in the area. IMHO, rather than being about specific buildings, the issue is more about maintaining the direction of the neighborhood - specifically the revitalization of the north end as a desirable place to live. However, that's an argument that has been covered well by others, and not what I was talking about in the post that you quoted.

Secondly, even though you keep insisting that the desire to preserve a significant portion of Halifax's remaining heritage properties equates to "don't ever change anything", that's actually not true. Part of the problem is that in the past, everybody had your mindset: it's old and needs work, so let's tear it down and build something new, because new must be better than old.

The result of that thinking over that past five or so decades is that Halifax was stripped of a lot of really nicely designed and built structures that would be real assets to the city had they been maintained. Now we are left with a situation where we are still tearing down some pretty cool structures that offered variety and history to our streetscapes, and replacing them (in many cases) with some very uninspiring structures. We already have a very limited supply of good old buildings built in the "Halifax style" of the past two centuries, and in that light it almost seems preposterous to most of us that we so casually knock down such structures with the same nonchalance that 'we' had in the 1950s. Meanwhile, most of the more progressive cities in North America had learned so long ago that this is a mistake.

As has been pointed out here many times in the past, Halifax has very weak heritage property protection laws which have really large loopholes through which a developer can basically tear down whatever they like to build whatever they like, as long as it falls within the zoning regulations.

If there were a process whereby structures could be determined to be an asset to the streetscape using a set criteria before permission was given to tear them down, this would result in the preservation of good old structures (or at least facades), while less significant buildings could be taken down. The point is that there are no rules, basically, and there should be.

This is not the same as "don't ever change anything" - which actually more aptly defines your mindset: don't ever change the way we've been doing it all along.

Just my . Feel free to twist it in whatever way that suits you.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

The result of that thinking over that past five or so decades is that Halifax was stripped of a lot of really nicely designed and built structures that would be real assets to the city had they been maintained. Now we are left with a situation where we are still tearing down some pretty cool structures that offered variety and history to our streetscapes, and replacing them (in many cases) with some very uninspiring structures.

When I think of Halifax and the "Halifax style" (🞵🞵🞵 is that anyway?) I think of things like the three eyesores on Barrington, especially the NFB facade that has been a wart on that streetscape for nearly 3 decades. The rubble should have been hauled away the day after it burned down. But Halifax foolishly paid to prop it up and be a blight on that block all this time, holding back the revitalization of the entire street. That, my friend, is what I find typical of this town. We want to hold on to old junk and 🞵🞵🞵🞵 forever because somebody, somewhere, once liked it. Or something. Now some developer thinks he can turn it into residential. Good luck with that.

[Nor'easter]

I would go as far as to say that, as things stand now, the houses on Fern/May/McCully are more out of place than Colonial Honda. The block of land bounded by Robie, Almon, Agricola and North is generally a commercial area (zoned commercial, go figure eh?).

If we really want to talk about out of place car dealerships we have to look no further than O'Regans Chev/Buick/GMC/Etc just down the street. This monstrosity and the adjacent Irving are ENTIRELY surrounded by residential developments:



No outrage there?

I think we should be more concerned about improving one of our main north-south thoroughfares through redevelopment than retaining a few out-of-place houses. I'd gladly trade those houses for a temporary parking lot and a widened Robie St. Maybe we can even get a bike lane or transit priority out of it !

Think big folks, once in a generation opportunity to incorporate the improvement of a major artery with the redevelopment of Bloomfield/Colonial.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by Nor'easter

I would go as far as to say that, as things stand now, the houses on Fern/May/McCully are more out of place than Colonial Honda. The block of land bounded by Robie, Almon, Agricola and North is generally a commercial area (zoned commercial, go figure eh?).

If we really want to talk about out of place car dealerships we have to look no further than O'Regans Chev/Buick/GMC/Etc just down the street. This monstrosity and the adjacent Irving are ENTIRELY surrounded by residential developments:

...

No outrage there?

I think we should be more concerned about improving one of our main north-south thoroughfares through redevelopment than retaining a few out-of-place houses. I'd gladly trade those houses for a temporary parking lot and a widened Robie St. Maybe we can even get a bike lane or transit priority out of it !

Think big folks, once in a generation opportunity to incorporate the improvement of a major artery with the redevelopment of Bloomfield/Colonial.

So, by your logic, if something detrimental to the fabric of a neighbourhood happens once, it's permissible (if not outright encouraged) to happen again? That makes no sense.

If the lot consolidation happens, then we lose density, and are stuck with more empty space downtown for decades. Your one step forward really sounds like two steps back.

There are many other solutions for Colonial Honda to make better use of its lot than it currently is. There are plenty of examples of multy-story urban car lots. Hell, the former CBC building that was just torn down was a former urban car lot that was built 80 years ago that's more progressive, forward thinking and better for urban development than this.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

When I think of Halifax and the "Halifax style" (🞵🞵🞵 is that anyway?) I think of things like the three eyesores on Barrington, especially the NFB facade that has been a wart on that streetscape for nearly 3 decades. The rubble should have been hauled away the day after it burned down. But Halifax foolishly paid to prop it up and be a blight on that block all this time, holding back the revitalization of the entire street. That, my friend, is what I find typical of this town. We want to hold on to old junk and 🞵🞵🞵🞵 forever because somebody, somewhere, once liked it. Or something. Now some developer thinks he can turn it into residential. Good luck with that.

IMHO, "Halifax style" is an acknowledgement that the age/mix of buildings in Halifax, while not necessarily unique to Halifax, is specific to our region and thus a significant part of our city's style, or built heritage, or whatever you want to call it. I thought you could figure that out.

Your feelings regarding the NFB facade and the scary Khyber building are well-known and I'm thankful that others have had the vision to see beyond what is in front of their face.

Have a nice day, Keith.

[Drybrain]

Originally Posted by Nor'easter

I would go as far as to say that, as things stand now, the houses on Fern/May/McCully are more out of place than Colonial Honda. The block of land bounded by Robie, Almon, Agricola and North is generally a commercial area (zoned commercial, go figure eh?).

If we really want to talk about out of place car dealerships we have to look no further than O'Regans Chev/Buick/GMC/Etc just down the street. This monstrosity and the adjacent Irving are ENTIRELY surrounded by residential developments:



No outrage there?

.

Why would people be getting outraged now about something that happened decades ago?

In fact, this is exactly why the Colonial plan should be opposed--it keeps the neighbourhood moving in that same direction, with the fine-grained urbanity mowed over for body shops and dealerships and gas stations.

And I second very word of DarmouthMark's post.

[Nor'easter]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

So, by your logic, if something detrimental to the fabric of a neighbourhood happens once, it's permissible (if not outright encouraged) to happen again? That makes no sense.

If the lot consolidation happens, then we lose density, and are stuck with more empty space downtown for decades. Your one step forward really sounds like two steps back.

There are many other solutions for Colonial Honda to make better use of its lot than it currently is. There are plenty of examples of multy-story urban car lots. Hell, the former CBC building that was just torn down was a former urban car lot that was built 80 years ago that's more progressive, forward thinking and better for urban development than this.

I believe that the benefit of redeveloping Robie St. outweights the detriment of losing these houses for a parking lot, yes. I'm not saying I want a parking lot, I'm saying I want to seize this rare opportunity to fix our transportation infrastructure, even if it means razing houses for temporary parking. I say temporary because the free market still prevails--this assembled plot will be quite valuable to a developer in the future when and if land values increase to a point where it can be taken advantage of.

So, two steps forward, one step back. Not ideal, but progress nonetheless.

Another thing that needs to be kept in mind is that Colonial Honda service shop was basically fully replaced within the last couple years. Perhaps in 10 years once the value of these renovations have been realized, Steele will consider replacing the dealership with something a bit more urban and possibly freeing up some of the land for another type of development altogether. Maybe he will move it entirely.

In the mean time Steele needs to compete with Portland Street Honda. It's highly inconvenient having to store your cars in a remote lot. He had a problem, and he is solving it and investing his piles of cash in peninsula real estate at the same time. I assume once the structures are razed, assessment will go down and he'll be getting a good deal on property tax as well.

[Phalanx]

Originally Posted by Nor'easter

I believe that the benefit of redeveloping Robie St. outweights the detriment of losing these houses for a parking lot, yes. I'm not saying I want a parking lot, I'm saying I want to seize this rare opportunity to fix our transportation infrastructure, even if it means razing houses for temporary parking. I say temporary because the free market still prevails--this assembled plot will be quite valuable to a developer in the future when and if land values increase to a point where it can be taken advantage of.

So, two steps forward, one step back. Not ideal, but progress nonetheless.

Another thing that needs to be kept in mind is that Colonial Honda service shop was basically fully replaced within the last couple years. Perhaps in 10 years once the value of these renovations have been realized, Steele will consider replacing the dealership with something a bit more urban and possibly freeing up some of the land for another type of development altogether. Maybe he will move it entirely.

In the mean time Steele needs to compete with Portland Street Honda. It's highly inconvenient having to store your cars in a remote lot. He had a problem, and he is solving it and investing his piles of cash in peninsula real estate at the same time. I assume once the structures are razed, assessment will go down and he'll be getting a good deal on property tax as well.

I don't see how preventing the loss of the houses/expansion of the lot will negatively impact development along Robie.

Furthermore, with the investment made in purchasing and demolishing the houses, in addition to the probably decrease in land value, it's unlikely that the dealership is going anywhere any time soon. Like I said, this is a choice we'll be stuck with for decades to come.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by OldDartmouthMark

IMHO, "Halifax style" is an acknowledgement that the age/mix of buildings in Halifax, while not necessarily unique to Halifax, is specific to our region and thus a significant part of our city's style, or built heritage, or whatever you want to call it. I thought you could figure that out.

So in other words, "Halifax style" is exactly what I described - the "don't change anything ever because something might have happened here once."

The same to you, sir.

[Nor'easter]

Originally Posted by Drybrain

Why would people be getting outraged now about something that happened decades ago?

It does seem like there is (or should be) a bit of outrage over the city not rezoning those areas residential decades ago if something like this was such a big deal.

Anyhow, I was hoping for some insight as to whether or not there was as much outrage when that neighbourhood was razed. Also, I'm a bit surprised that I haven't seen it come up in these discussions (lessons learned, impact on community) since it seems like a pretty good case study.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Nor'easter

I would go as far as to say that, as things stand now, the houses on Fern/May/McCully are more out of place than Colonial Honda. The block of land bounded by Robie, Almon, Agricola and North is generally a commercial area (zoned commercial, go figure eh?).

Precisely.

If we really want to talk about out of place car dealerships we have to look no further than O'Regans Chev/Buick/GMC/Etc just down the street. This monstrosity and the adjacent Irving are ENTIRELY surrounded by residential developments

I suspect, but do not know, that the Irving station has been there in some form or another for many years. Some old photos of the area would be interesting.

The original building that housed what is now O'Regans was erected in the 1960s as Trainor GMC, a truck dealer. The market for selling exclusively trucks in the middle of the city apparently was not what it was thought to be, as that became the new home of Scotia Chevrolet in the late 1960s or early 1970s, when they moved out of their longtime location in the just-demolished CBC building on South Park and Sackville. The O'Regans purchased them some time later. The site that is now largely a parking lot on the corner of West St and Robie was, for a great many years, an industrial plant - Canadian Linen Supply did cleaning there in a large white-painted concrete building from, I believe, early in the 20th century. Hardly a residential use.

I think we should be more concerned about improving one of our main north-south thoroughfares through redevelopment than retaining a few out-of-place houses. I'd gladly trade those houses for a temporary parking lot and a widened Robie St. Maybe we can even get a bike lane or transit priority out of it !

Think big folks, once in a generation opportunity to incorporate the improvement of a major artery with the redevelopment of Bloomfield/Colonial.

This is exactly correct. Robie is the main N-S thoroughfare in the city yet it bottlenecks in these few blocks. Widen it as you get the opportunity. No bike lanes though. Put them on residential streets away from all that traffic. Otherwise I could not agree more.

[Nor'easter]

Originally Posted by Phalanx

I don't see how preventing the loss of the houses/expansion of the lot will negatively impact development along Robie.

Furthermore, with the investment made in purchasing and demolishing the houses, in addition to the probably decrease in land value, it's unlikely that the dealership is going anywhere any time soon. Like I said, this is a choice we'll be stuck with for decades to come.

I believe that Steele's cooperation in the development of Robie St would be essential. If the city attempted to interfere with his expansion plans, I doubt he'd be willing to play ball. The city also has a valuable asset to Steele in the McCully ROW. I'm sure something could be worked out there.

The demolishing of existing structures and consolidating of properties increases the land value to developers. The only investment value Steele loses is cost of paving, which would be depreciated by the time he sells anyway.

[OliverD]

Originally Posted by Nor'easter

It's highly inconvenient having to store your cars in a remote lot.

Sure, but it's fairly typical to do that in urban centres.

[OldDartmouthMark]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

The same to you, sir.

Thank you!

[Keith P.]

A story on the Colonial Honda plans from the Herald, with a different narrative than the one we've been hearing:

http://thechronicleherald.ca/novascotia/1361348-honda-demolition-plans-have-foes%E2%80%94and-fans

There’s a Facebook page, an online petition and a planned protest against it.

But at least one neighbour of Colonial Honda in Halifax, which has bought up homes around its Robie Street location and plans to knock them down, says he’ll be glad to see derelict homes destroyed, even if it is to make way for a car dealership parking lot.

Greg Hayes, who has operated Hayes Antiques on McCully Street for decades and owns an apartment building next door, says he regrets seeing some families displaced from their homes in the North and Robie streets area to allow Steele Auto Group’s Colonial Honda to expand.

Still, Hayes sees this as a necessary move to get rid of rotting, run-down homes that diminish other property values.

“It’s going to be great,” said Hayes Sunday at his store. “We’ve got a bunch of dilapidated crack houses around here that do nothing for the neighbourhood. A month ago a womanthrew a chair through a window, for God’s sake.

“I’ll be glad to see them go.”

---

Many of the properties have been for sale for five years, including 11 residential and one commercial property, for a combined total of $5 million. There was an opportunity for many area properties to be bought and fixed up but there were no takers, said Hayes.

“Now they’re a mess.”

He also noted that his property is adjacent to Colonial Honda’s existing parking area, which once contained homes. The company has been good to its neighbours, he added, shoveling snow and cutting grass on adjacent lots and keeping noise to a minimum.

Hayes refused an offer to buy his two properties on McCully Street, as he said he wanted to stay where he has been for decades, a good location with high visibility. Because all owners on that side of the street would have to agree to sell, none will be demolished.

One building across McCully Street from the Hayes store already sits empty, the tenants having been offered a free month’s rent plus moving expenses to go quickly, said Hayes.

Cue the perpetually outraged to call Mr. Hayes all sorts of nasty names.

[Ziobrop]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

It's not a parking lot, it is a car dealership/serivce center. A very profitable and successful business that employs probably 50 or more people, in a location many customers find extremely convenient. It's not like they are tearing down old architecturally-designed mansions on Young Ave.

it employs fewer now that steele owns it.
he trimmed support staff after he bought it.

Anyway, im fine with flatening the block, there is nothing historic or remarkable about the area - its pretty run down - but yah, not a car lot.

[Nor'easter]

Originally Posted by Keith P.

No bike lanes though. Put them on residential streets away from all that traffic.

Just pandering...

Originally Posted by OliverD

Sure, but it's fairly typical to do that in urban centres.

Only because the urban lots are cost-prohibitive. In this case, clearly not an issue.

Originally Posted by Keith P.

Cue the perpetually outraged to call Mr. Hayes all sorts of nasty names.

Ironically, he will be one of the few occupants left to enjoy this "soon-to-be-destroyed" part of town. And it sounds like he couldn't be happier.

If not the residents of this area, who exactly are the opponents of this development trying to protect? Themselves, for those fleeting moments they pass by and see it? Will they somehow sleep better at night knowing that there are more human beings than automobiles in the vicinity of 44°39'18.4"N 63°35'41.7"W on planet Earth? It's not like expanding car dealerships are a widespread issue plaguing our city.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Ziobrop

it employs fewer now that steele owns it.
he trimmed support staff after he bought it.

Makes sense. He would have back-office functions centralized for all his operations.

BTW, I was wrong in terms of employment. Apparently it is more like 100 people.

[Keith P.]

Originally Posted by Nor'easter

If not the residents of this area, who exactly are the opponents of this development trying to protect? Themselves, for those fleeting moments they pass by and see it? Will they somehow sleep better at night knowing that there are more human beings than automobiles in the vicinity of 44°39'18.4"N 63°35'41.7"W on planet Earth? It's not like expanding car dealerships are a widespread issue plaguing our city.

They are worshippers at the altar of Toderian, Keesmaat and Florida, where a cafe on every corner linked by a string of boutiques and galleries is seen as the "1000 virgins" ultimate reward for all neighborhoods.

[portapetey]

Originally Posted by Nor'easter

If not the residents of this area, who exactly are the opponents of this development trying to protect? Themselves, for those fleeting moments they pass by and see it? Will they somehow sleep better at night knowing that there are more human beings than automobiles in the vicinity of 44°39'18.4"N 63°35'41.7"W on planet Earth? It's not like expanding car dealerships are a widespread issue plaguing our city.

I can only speak for myself, but I just hate to see nearly a block of land in a fast-developing area simply paved over for such a mundane use. I don't care about the existing homes, but about the opportunity lost of building something more useful and / or exciting there.

I dislike the idea of it the same way I dislike the Shopper's just up the street. It's a prime corner on a very busy urban thoroughfare that ended up being a bland little box sitting at the back of a stale expanse of pavement, when there could have been an exciting development there instead. There are other examples - Gottingen Staples, Barrington Superstore, etc.

Car lots and surface parking at the sidewalk have their places, of course (in the suburbs and business parks) but I don't think those place are being very well chosen in some cases - from an aesthetic / urban design perspective at least. As someone pointed out above, the choices must make business sense, as much of a blight as they might be.