Burnaby Updates

[Skygazer]

I agree that Brentwood has a lot more potential than Metrotown, and that re-development in that neighbourhood will be easier than in Metrotown.

That being said, there is some potential in Metrotown with the north side of Kingsway facing the mall, as that area is still mostly strip malls, as well as a couple other areas in the neighbourhood. They could someday make something interesting there. Also, Metrotown has two large parks bordering it, which Brentwood lacks (though it's just a couple SkyTrain stops from Burnaby Lake, so that counts for something).

Overall though I think Brentwood has a more interesting short-term future (next 5 to 10 years) ahead of it than Metrotown. Especially once the Millenium Line is (hopefully) extended down Broadway, that'll even the playing field a lot. And once the Lougheed re-development gets underway and new developments happen around the Evergreen extension in the Tri-Cities just a few minutes away, that's gonna give North Burnaby some serious competitive edge against South Burnaby.

[GlassCity]

I'm actually quite surprised that this Brentwood vs. Metrotown debate has even come up. In my mind, Metrotown is absolutely the uncontested centre of Burnarby. I had never even heard of Brentwood before the towers were proposed, and even now I think it's all a matter of speculation. Metrotown is established, busy and organic, whereas Brentwood just has the taller towers. It could go either way in 10 or 20 years, but for now I think Metrotown has been the centre of Burnaby for so long, I'd be surprised if another area completely overtook it, especially one that at the moment is completely off the map. I recognize that this is all a matter of personal perception though.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I'm actually quite surprised that this Brentwood vs. Metrotown debate has even come up. In my mind, Metrotown is absolutely the uncontested centre of Burnarby. I had never even heard of Brentwood before the towers were proposed, and even now I think it's all a matter of speculation. Metrotown is established, busy and organic, whereas Brentwood just has the taller towers. It could go either way in 10 or 20 years, but for now I think Metrotown has been the centre of Burnaby for so long, I'd be surprised if another area completely overtook it, especially one that at the moment is completely off the map. I recognize that this is all a matter of personal perception though.

I know what you mean. There actually wasn't much of anything there until the Millennium line opened in 2002, just car dealerships. It's actually amazing how much it has built up in less than 15 years. Metrotown definately had a head start and Burnaby put a lot of eggs in that basket as far back as the 70's.

But with Metrotown, proper planning seems like an afterthought. Just the pedestrian bridge to the mall has been woefully inadequate for 15 years. And I'm not even 100% sure that Burnaby is taking advantage of the Metrotown Station redesign to properly incorporate it into the city (like the new pedestrian bridge integration seems wishywashy). And what's up with the pedestrian walkways leading out of the mall towards Kingsway that are not used? Like, what the heck? It took decades for them to build that one overpass over Kingsway.

I lived by Metrotown (just south of the station) for a few years. And while I liked my place and I liked living there, most of it was blah. I liked it for the proximity to school, and to my part time job, and to transit (so I could leave there).

But it was hard to get over to Kingsway without walking through the mall (sucks when it was closed), if not then you had to detour a long way. Everything is on one loud busy street (Kingsway). Almost everything of interest is inward focused away from the street (like the mall, Station Square, Crystal mall).

And because everything else you might want to see is on one long street, 2 shops you want to see visit be a mile apart, so you have to take the bus, except the 106 only goes half way and you have to go into the Metrotown exchange to get on the 19 to see the rest of the street.

It was such a hassle to go anywhere but the mall, that if I felt like going to a pub, it was easier to just get on Skytrain and be in New West in 12 minutes or Downtown in 15. It took just a minute or two more time to get to an interesting watering hole on Columbia street than get to one of the boring typical chain restaurants on Kingsway (and cost the same transit fare).

I'm not saying they can't fix it, but it will take a lot of time. When instead they could just start from scratch around Brentwood, which is exploding at the moment, so I don't think you would have to wait that long.

If they want to build an event space, I don't see where they will put it around Metrotown. The only place close to Skytrain and Kingsway, where they won't have to evict old ladies from apartments, is on top of the park behind the Library, which I think would actually go over worse than kicking old ladies out of apartments.

Plus, the Anvil center is only 10 minutes away on the train. Why have event space so close together? Having it around Brentwood creates a lot more balance in the region.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Sheba

What’s more, the updated plan calls for the construction of a “major performance/event centre” and perhaps a new arena.

Maybe that's what they're going to do with the empty Target space...

Then again maybe that's not such a far fetched idea. Retail has been moving towards smaller spaces and that's a big spot to fill (even if they cut it in half and had each floor being it's own store). I'd suggested before about it being converted into something 'non-retail' - and it has outside entrances.

The nice thing about convention space is that it's multi-purpose. Ignoring for the moment the sound-insulation requirements for performances, any purpose-built convention space can switch between a convention center's exhibition space and additional temporary retail space for seasonal (eg Halloween and Christmas) pop-up stores. Right now, the court spaces at Metropolis mall are already used for small events, so this is consistent with what I'm suggesting below.

The Target space has been empty ever since (116,700 square foot space across two floors), same with the Best Buy space across the street (Why did they bother moving, now nobody knows where it is.)

I predict once of three scenarios:
1) Metropolis is redeveloped in phases (currently has 1.7 million square feet) with the existing parking lots becoming part of a new building space, so a new convention space (Ideally a an additional 3 million square foot area of convention floor space with a purpose-built hotel component could be found that could be partitioned off/stacked on top of each other, keeping the food/retail component to the bottom three floors. That would actually attract conventions here.) This is the ideal, yet unrealistic option since that would mean two developers working together to begin with.
2) A bunch of the current car dealership spaces on Kingsway are converted to this convention space. Or the Old Orchard Shopping center and surrounding properties. Less likely because it's not near the Skytrain station.
3) Acquire all the properties on the north and south side of Royal Oak station and build it there. More likely, but less optimistic, since key property holders don't want to sell.

It is not unheard of for a developer to demolish 1-5 year old buildings to build something bigger. A huge waste of materials however. This is what I think was a missed opportunity with Station Square. Ivanhoe Cambridge should have straight up bought it and the Sears property, and redeveloped the entire property from west to east as a large covered shopping mall+office tower+hotel+convention center complex. 5 million square feet of space (2 million shopping, 3 million convention space), largest and tallest buildings in BC, etc. But this is just wishful long-term thing. This is the same missed opportunity with Tsawwassen Mills, also an Ivanhoe Cambridge project.

Metropolis is 1.78 million square feet (presumably not including the parking lot space) on what I think is 30 acres, Amazing Brentwood is 1.1 million (on 28 acres.)

Concord Pacific bought the sears quadrant (8.9 acres) of the Metropolis property area, so it's likely just going to be a bunch more thoughtless "luxury" condo developments (The Met phase 3 through 10?) and not an expansion of the mall retail area, which would be incredibly disappointing.

Meanwhile there's plenty of properties around Brentwood that could also be redeveloped, so the most likely location for a performance venue would be there.

The most likely thing is that the City of Burnaby will continue to never refuse a development.

[Skygazer]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

I'm actually quite surprised that this Brentwood vs. Metrotown debate has even come up. In my mind, Metrotown is absolutely the uncontested centre of Burnarby. I had never even heard of Brentwood before the towers were proposed, and even now I think it's all a matter of speculation. Metrotown is established, busy and organic, whereas Brentwood just has the taller towers. It could go either way in 10 or 20 years, but for now I think Metrotown has been the centre of Burnaby for so long, I'd be surprised if another area completely overtook it, especially one that at the moment is completely off the map. I recognize that this is all a matter of personal perception though.

I totally agree that Metrotown is definitely the "downtown" of Burnaby at the moment, but I think a lot of people here (including myself) are talking about coming decade or so.

With the serious re-development going on in Brentwood, it has the potential to give Metrotown a run for its money. At the very least, it's looking to have a much more interesting decade ahead of it than Metrotown as it finally really transforms from a quiet, mostly suburban/industrial zone to a proper vibrant town centre... especially if they do a good job implementing a true urban feel to the neighbourhood while Metrotown remains a giant mall surrounded by strip malls and highrises.

[Geof]

The reasons for choosing Metrotown appear to be political. A news story from October 2014 - one month before the civic election - includes it in a list of part of a bundle of goodies, one for each quadrant of the city:

• Metrotown: event centre
• Brentwood: community centre & linear park
• Edmonds: new arena
• Lougheed: replace community centre (complete with pool) and library

I think the basic idea of making sure benefits are distributed to the four town centres is a good one. Also, developments at all town centres are contributing money under the benefit bonus policy. So as much as the selfish part of me would be nice to see all the good stuff coming to my neighborhood (Brentwood), I don't see it happening. I think the political consideration of fairness is more important than picking the ideal spot for each without taking that into account.

At the same time, I don't really want Metrotown to be the downtown for Burnaby. I avoid going to Metrotown, and do not regularly have to deal with car trips as long or congested as driving there down Willingdon. Just about everything I need is available much closer to home. To me, that's one of the big advantages of the town centre policy: it responds to transportation challenges by making trips shorter. I don't think Burnaby needs a downtown; I think it needs what it is already building: complete town centres connected by rapid transit. I hope the city continues to spread the goodies around instead of concentrating them at Metrotown.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Geof

The reasons for choosing Metrotown appear to be political. A news story from October 2014 - one month before the civic election - includes it in a list of part of a bundle of goodies, one for each quadrant of the city:

• Metrotown: event centre
• Brentwood: community centre & linear park
• Edmonds: new arena
• Lougheed: replace community centre (complete with pool) and library

From that article:

In Metrotown Town Centre, or the southwest quadrant, that priority is a new performance and event centre. "The facility would be capable of hosting installations, performances and significant gatherings, and would be intended to be a local community and civic-oriented centre that is highly accessible to citizens in Metrotown and Burnaby as a whole," said the report.

While the location will be determined by opportunities coming out of new development in the area, ideally it would be in the area of Kingsway and Willingdon Avenue, it said.

That makes it sound like they want to build it on the Old Orchard site, which is less than a 10 minute walk from Metrotown Station. Right next door to it is Sovereign and it's hotel.

In Brentwood Town Centre, or the northwest quadrant, a new Brentwood community centre is at the top of the priority list. As reported in the NewsLeader, the city and mall owner Shape Properties is looking into the feasibility of building such a facility as part of the Brentwood mall redevelopment.

The report said the ideal location would be along Willingdon, near Halifax Street, within the podium of a mixed-use development.

...

For Edmonds Town Centre, or the southeast quadrant, a new Edmonds arena has been identified as a priority. It would be the first such facility in South Burnaby.

...

And in Lougheed Town Centre, or the northeast quadrant, the priority project will be replacement of Cameron Recreation Centre, including a pool and a replacement of Cameron library branch.

With planning work underway for the redevelopment of the Lougheed mall site, several options are being considered for the amenities, including where they should be located and whether they should be together in the same building as they are now. The area currently doesn't have a pool, and the new rec complex and library would likely be larger than they are today.

[Skygazer]

Originally Posted by Sheba

That makes it sound like they want to build it on the Old Orchard site, which is less than a 10 minute walk from Metrotown Station. Right next door to it is Sovereign and it's hotel.

Interesting. Anybody know what the long-term plans are for the Old Orchard shopping center? Doesn't seem like there are any concrete plans to replace it in the next few years, given that Save On Foods just opened there.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Skygazer

Interesting. Anybody know what the long-term plans are for the Old Orchard shopping center? Doesn't seem like there are any concrete plans to replace it in the next few years, given that Save On Foods just opened there.

Nothing concrete. There's been talk on here of that being one of the prime Kingsway redevelopment spots near Metrotown, esp since Sovereign was completed. There are other old low rise buildings but that one's a bigger lot.

I was wondering if Save-On was leasing that location but apparently they bought it. Maybe they're hoping for the lot to be redeveloped and getting into a new store at that location? I don't know what their plan is.

[Infrequent Poster]

Originally Posted by Kisai

The nice thing about convention space is that it's multi-purpose. Ignoring for the moment the sound-insulation requirements for performances, any purpose-built convention space can switch between a convention center's exhibition space and additional temporary retail space for seasonal (eg Halloween and Christmas) pop-up stores. Right now, the court spaces at Metropolis mall are already used for small events, so this is consistent with what I'm suggesting below.

The Target space has been empty ever since (116,700 square foot space across two floors), same with the Best Buy space across the street (Why did they bother moving, now nobody knows where it is.)

I predict once of three scenarios:
1) Metropolis is redeveloped in phases (currently has 1.7 million square feet) with the existing parking lots becoming part of a new building space, so a new convention space (Ideally a an additional 3 million square foot area of convention floor space with a purpose-built hotel component could be found that could be partitioned off/stacked on top of each other, keeping the food/retail component to the bottom three floors. That would actually attract conventions here.) This is the ideal, yet unrealistic option since that would mean two developers working together to begin with.
2) A bunch of the current car dealership spaces on Kingsway are converted to this convention space. Or the Old Orchard Shopping center and surrounding properties. Less likely because it's not near the Skytrain station.
3) Acquire all the properties on the north and south side of Royal Oak station and build it there. More likely, but less optimistic, since key property holders don't want to sell.

It is not unheard of for a developer to demolish 1-5 year old buildings to build something bigger. A huge waste of materials however. This is what I think was a missed opportunity with Station Square. Ivanhoe Cambridge should have straight up bought it and the Sears property, and redeveloped the entire property from west to east as a large covered shopping mall+office tower+hotel+convention center complex. 5 million square feet of space (2 million shopping, 3 million convention space), largest and tallest buildings in BC, etc. But this is just wishful long-term thing. This is the same missed opportunity with Tsawwassen Mills, also an Ivanhoe Cambridge project.

Metropolis is 1.78 million square feet (presumably not including the parking lot space) on what I think is 30 acres, Amazing Brentwood is 1.1 million (on 28 acres.)

Concord Pacific bought the sears quadrant (8.9 acres) of the Metropolis property area, so it's likely just going to be a bunch more thoughtless "luxury" condo developments (The Met phase 3 through 10?) and not an expansion of the mall retail area, which would be incredibly disappointing.

Meanwhile there's plenty of properties around Brentwood that could also be redeveloped, so the most likely location for a performance venue would be there.

The most likely thing is that the City of Burnaby will continue to never refuse a development.

That seems like a pretty huge amount of space for a convention centre, in my opinion.

Thats more space then the three largest convention centres in canada combined (maybe even four or five). I think the Vancouver convention centre is like 400 000 square feet.

Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly?

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Infrequent Poster

That seems like a pretty huge amount of space for a convention centre, in my opinion.

Thats more space then the three largest convention centres in canada combined (maybe even four or five). I think the Vancouver convention centre is like 400 000 square feet.

Maybe I'm not understanding you correctly?

Long term planning. I literately went to "largest convention centers in the US" and picked the biggest number and rounded up.

To give you an example, the closest "largest convention" in Seattle, PAX and ECCC are always sold out. It only has 300,000sq ft, and they are adding another 440,000 sq foot expansion.

Toronto's convention center is 600,000sq ft, and the largest conventions that go there are Fan Expo (which is largely failing in Western Canada because it's too expensive for what little they bring, even though it's managed by the same people in Toronto) however in Toronto they've also reached a capacity limit.

SDCC in San Diego is spread across 9 buildings because there is no space, and been that way for almost a decade, the convention center itself is 615,700 sq ft being expanded to 870,000 sq ft, and did so under the threat of SDCC leaving.

Calgary is the only other place in Western Canada that large events are held at.

Basically I'm suggesting building something that could support and attract the largest conventions for the next 50 years. What we have in Downtown Vancouver is actually too small for these kinds of fan/entertainment-conventions already. It's also perpetually too busy http://www.vancouverconventioncentre.com/events to host a large convention, and mainly hosts many small conventions by partitioning between the two buildings.

[VarBreStr18]

If you look at google map, the Carter dealership site in Brentwood really is an ideal location for a convention/event center because
it is directly across from a well designed modern sky train station capable of moving large volumes of people. Direct link to future Evergreen line which enables people from Lougheed and beyond opportunity to enjoy the events. Even people from North/West Vancouver can drive in relatively easily.
Carter Dealership is roughly 7 acres similar to Solo District and would be ample for building structures and parking. The North West corner of Kingsway/Willingdon is very far from the Sky train station, not to mention crossing the wide span of Kingsway which is dangerous and time consuming even on non-event days.

[Klazu]

Do you guys really want a convention center smack in the middle of Brentwood or Metrotown? Those things require lots of parking (and big roads) and most of the time they are dead from the outside. A stadium is a more lively venue and a better amenity to the people that live in the area. Convention centers are mostly for out-of-town visitors.

[Sheba]

A less than 10 min walk is too far?

I'm more interested in where the heck they'd put an arena in the Edmonds town centre. Also what size would it be?

[VarBreStr18]

Originally Posted by Sheba

A less than 10 min walk is too far?

I'm more interested in where the heck they'd put an arena in the Edmonds town centre. Also what size would it be?

In a Vancouver rainy, dark and cold day with no overhead shelter, 10 minutes walk is miserable and dangerous

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by VarBreStr18

In a Vancouver rainy, dark and cold day with no overhead shelter, 10 minutes walk is miserable and dangerous

That's what jackets, coats and hats, hoods and umbrellas were invented for. I don't like getting rained on and I manage to walk around in that kind of weather.

Also this isn't out in the middle of the forest where people risk getting mauled by a bear. There are sidewalks and street lights and even a bus route.

[VarBreStr18]

Originally Posted by Sheba

That's what jackets, coats and hats, hoods and umbrellas were invented for. I don't like getting rained on and I manage to walk around in that kind of weather.

Also this isn't out in the middle of the forest where people risk getting mauled by a bear. There are sidewalks and street lights and even a bus route.

How come so many pedestrians still got hit on perfectly marked crossings? You may think you are perfectly protected from the elements, but crossing any street in that kind of conditions is still treacherous , let alone a multi lane road like Kingsway. Drivers do not see well
In that kind of condition either and you are not as visible as you think. For old, mobility compromised individuals , it really would be a challenge. I have done left turns on dark rainy days , and pedestrians are really hard to see. I am half way into my turn , and my god there are still pedestrians on the crosswalk . Goodness I drive slow.Not every drivers are slow and cautious doing turns. Drivers in Vancouver are soooo impatient!!!

[GilmoreStation]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Nothing concrete. There's been talk on here of that being one of the prime Kingsway redevelopment spots near Metrotown, esp since Sovereign was completed. There are other old low rise buildings but that one's a bigger lot.

I was wondering if Save-On was leasing that location but apparently they bought it. Maybe they're hoping for the lot to be redeveloped and getting into a new store at that location? I don't know what their plan is.

Given the massive success that Jim Pattison had with Burrard Place, I am pretty sure he wants to repeat that in Metrotown

[WBC]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Nothing concrete. There's been talk on here of that being one of the prime Kingsway redevelopment spots near Metrotown, esp since Sovereign was completed. There are other old low rise buildings but that one's a bigger lot.

I was wondering if Save-On was leasing that location but apparently they bought it. Maybe they're hoping for the lot to be redeveloped and getting into a new store at that location? I don't know what their plan is.

BTW - I talked to the manager at Save-On on Friday. He is saying they plan to expand the Save-On to add pharmacy plus more...So it seems that they have bigger short-term plans for that location.

[Spr0ckets]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Nothing concrete. There's been talk on here of that being one of the prime Kingsway redevelopment spots near Metrotown, esp since Sovereign was completed. There are other old low rise buildings but that one's a bigger lot.

I was wondering if Save-On was leasing that location but apparently they bought it. Maybe they're hoping for the lot to be redeveloped and getting into a new store at that location? I don't know what their plan is.

That's really funny to hear.

Save-on used to be located in the old Station Square before the redevelopment and was actually supposed to go back there, but then they owners changed the plans and put PriceSmart there instead.

So it's really funny to hear that they not only bought a new location a few steps away, but would possibly be hoping for the area to be redeveloped (again) and get a new store out of it.


Why didn't they just put the old Save-On back at Station Square?
I understand not wanting to compete head-to-head with the Canadian Superstore literally next door at Metropolis, but now PriceSmart is there and more or less in direct competition with T&T at the mall.

I guess the distance between them (and with T&T buried in the basement of the mall) justifies that decision somewhat.
It's just odd that you'll get a Save-On back, but at a further distance away.

I liken it to Best Buy's decision to shutter their store at Kingsway and opt instead for a larger location at Station Square where the Futureshop used to be.
Larger, yes, but now it's so out of the way that you literally can't get to it without going all the way round and getting into Station Square from the back (either from Metropolis or Beresford - mostly due to the construction still ongoing on Towers 2 & 3 for Station Square, but still.....).

Also, in Save-On's case, I would question the wisdom of putting it in a location where it's now more or less in direct competition with the more established IGA slightly further down Kingsway.