I had to travel within the Commonwealth to find out that Canadians pronounced a good number of names from the British Isles in what the rest of the world would describe as the American way:
Strachan - strakkan (American) vs. strawn (Commonwealth)
Doherty - dorty (American) vs. dockerty (Commonwewalth)
Leah(e)y - lay-hee (American) vs. lee-hee (Commonwealth)
Mahoney - muh-hoh-nee (American) vs. maw-nee (Commonwealth)
Funny how most of these are Irish names...
I wouldn't dream of pronouncing "Strachan" as "Strakkan" ... maybe it's a generational thing. Ma-HONE-y is silly and (as far as I know) American but it's so prevalent now that it's becoming an affectation to say it the proper way. Other names have changed in Canada as well, e.g. my Buchanan forebears from Isle of Skye>PEI were "Buh HAN in" but that pronunciation isn't heard anymore as far as I know. One thing I've noticed is that the TV show "Frasier" changed younger Canadians' pronunciation of "Fraser" within the space of a generation ... it must be quite annoying if that's your surname. The America's "Macleans" toothpaste (pronounced as the word "clean") similarly wreaked havoc with the name "MacLean". Another one that has changed very quickly is "MacKay" -- you don't hear "MacKYE" much anymore.
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"Fuhnance minister" is actually a good example of something you'll hear listening to English-language CBC.
The difference between the short "i" and the short "u" can become blurred in spoken English. I tend to think of it as an elocution issue, but I suppose much of what we consider to be "accents" has to do with those pesky shifting vowels.
I had to travel within the Commonwealth to find out that Canadians pronounced a good number of names from the British Isles in what the rest of the world would describe as the American way:
Strachan - strakkan (American) vs. strawn (Commonwealth)
Doherty - dorty (American) vs. dockerty (Commonwewalth)
Leah(e)y - lay-hee (American) vs. lee-hee (Commonwealth)
Mahoney - muh-hoh-nee (American) vs. maw-nee (Commonwealth)
Funny how most of these are Irish names...
There's a Strachan Street in Hamilton that everyone I knew pronounced "strawn" thirty years ago, but I don't know about now. Pete Doherty was kind of a big figure in indie circles in the early years of the previous decade, so I presume people said his name properly, but that was probably a one-off, and wouldn't translate to other Dohertys that North Americans would encounter.
A quick internet search suggests that only the Irish actually pronounce Mahoney as "maw-nee," which is presumably the proper way, while the British pronounce it like Americans do.
Example of "strakkan": Al Strachan, noted sports journalist
Born in Toronto
In his 50s or 60s or older
I always wonder if he or his parents just gave up trying to correct people's pronunciation of their name? It seems odd in a town where the name is historically prominent (and usually correctly pronounced).
I wouldn't dream of pronouncing "Strachan" as "Strakkan" ... maybe it's a generational thing. Ma-HONE-y is silly and (as far as I know) American but it's so prevalent now that it's becoming an affectation to say it the proper way. Other names have changed in Canada as well, e.g. my Buchanan forebears from Isle of Skye>PEI were "Buh HAN in" but that pronunciation isn't heard anymore as far as I know. One thing I've noticed is that the TV show "Frasier" changed younger Canadians' pronunciation of "Fraser" within the space of a generation ... it must be quite annoying if that's your surname. The America's "Macleans" toothpaste (pronounced as the word "clean") similarly wreaked havoc with the name "MacLean". Another one that has changed very quickly is "MacKay" -- you don't hear "MacKYE" much anymore.
Tell me about it.....
I can authoritatively state that many Frasers do not hesitate to correct that and, in at least one case I am familiar with ( ) to point out that, in Canada, Fraser is almost always spelled with an "s", as opposed to the USA where the "z' and "zier" variants are fairly common.
For some of the "American" pronunciations, for surnames and for other words, don't forget that the Canadian pronunciation was brought in by Loyalists, so there's valid reason why our pronunciation is sometimes the same.
Could be. I know that French influence in Ottawa explains the *wrong* pronunciation of Dalhousie: "dal-hoo-zee".
New Edinburgh is right next to Vanier, a historically francophone part of Ottawa. It could be that francophones over time imposed a more phonetic way of saying it, being unfamiliar with the way it's said in Scotland.
Everyone in Ottawa says that, but to me it's "Dal-oo-ZEE" in French and "Dal-OO-zee" in English (ie. pronounced the Scots way). Dal-HOW-zee seems to be the English (from England) form. What I don't like is "Dal-WHO-zee", which fortunately seems least common.
Everyone in Ottawa says that, but to me it's "Dal-oo-ZEE" in French and "Dal-OO-zee" in English (ie. pronounced the Scots way). Dal-HOW-zee seems to be the English (from England) form. What I don't like is "Dal-WHO-zee", which fortunately seems least common.
For the university in Halifax: Dal-HOW-zee.
In Ottawa, people say the H when saying Dalhousie in English BTW.
There's a Strachan Street in Hamilton that everyone I knew pronounced "strawn" thirty years ago, but I don't know about now. Pete Doherty was kind of a big figure in indie circles in the early years of the previous decade, so I presume people said his name properly, but that was probably a one-off, and wouldn't translate to other Dohertys that North Americans would encounter.
A quick internet search suggests that only the Irish actually pronounce Mahoney as "maw-nee," which is presumably the proper way, while the British pronounce it like Americans do.
The Aussies generally say ''maw-nee'' I am almost positive.
I wouldn't dream of pronouncing "Strachan" as "Strakkan" ... maybe it's a generational thing. Ma-HONE-y is silly and (as far as I know) American but it's so prevalent now that it's becoming an affectation to say it the proper way. Other names have changed in Canada as well, e.g. my Buchanan forebears from Isle of Skye>PEI were "Buh HAN in" but that pronunciation isn't heard anymore as far as I know. One thing I've noticed is that the TV show "Frasier" changed younger Canadians' pronunciation of "Fraser" within the space of a generation ... it must be quite annoying if that's your surname. The America's "Macleans" toothpaste (pronounced as the word "clean") similarly wreaked havoc with the name "MacLean". Another one that has changed very quickly is "MacKay" -- you don't hear "MacKYE" much anymore.
Yes, I've heard the Macleans toothpaste thing as well.
Americans spell a number of surnames more ''phonetically" it seems.
Down there you see stuff like MacRay, MacLain, MacLane, MacLoud, etc. a lot more whereas in Canada MacRae, MacLean, MacLeod are the most common spellings.
A lot of the Irish names here are misspelled and mispronounced. Half because they changed from Gaelic to English (eg Curran), and half because people were illiterate. Completely normal here until my parents' generation for siblings to each spell their surname differently.
On mom's side, my great-great-great grandmother was a Kavanagh from the southern shore. There are six different spellings we know of among the descendants of her siblings.
__________________ Note to self: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
Everyone in Ottawa says that, but to me it's "Dal-oo-ZEE" in French and "Dal-OO-zee" in English (ie. pronounced the Scots way). Dal-HOW-zee seems to be the English (from England) form. What I don't like is "Dal-WHO-zee", which fortunately seems least common.
I wonder if with the decline of French in that (historically francophone) part of Ottawa, and the decline of French usage in Ottawa in general, if the UK and Halifax way of saying Dalhousie may not slowly take root and make the middle HOO syllable disappear (replaced by HOW), at least when people are speaking in English.
When I was a kid, people speaking in French often used to say Saint-Patrice and Saint-André for Saint Patrick and Saint Andrew streets in Lower Town Ottawa. No one says that anymore. Even the traffic reporters on francophone radio use the English names. Same goes for Tenth Line Road (la Dixième Ligne) out in Orleans.
I think Dalhousie University set the standard here. If the Nova Scotians decided it should be pronounced "sandwich", then that's what it would be here.
__________________ Note to self: "The plural of anecdote is not evidence."
I wonder if with the decline of French in that (historically francophone) part of Ottawa, and the decline of French usage in Ottawa in general, if the UK and Halifax way of saying Dalhousie may not slowly take root and make the middle HOO syllable disappear (replaced by HOW), at least when people are speaking in English.
When I was a kid, people speaking in French often used to say Saint-Patrice and Saint-André for Saint Patrick and Saint Andrew streets in Lower Town Ottawa. No one says that anymore. Even the traffic reporters on francophone radio use the English names. Same goes for Tenth Line Road (la Dixième Ligne) out in Orleans.
I have a rather snobby friend in Ottawa who insists on calling the street "Da-HOW-sie" because she has decided that the normal Ottawa pronunciation is somehow crude (this despite her own Scots ancestry!). Of course she wouldn't be caught dead on Dalhousie so fortunately she doesn't say it often.
There are worse Ottawa names to mispronounce. Working with tourists in the Summer, I've heard
- Elgin as [el-JIN], [IL-jin] and [EEL-jin]
- Rideau as [ree-DOO] or, most cringe-worthy, [ree-DAY-oe]
- Gatineau (pronounced [Gat'noe]) as [dja-TEE-noe], [ga-tee-new]
- Byward (pronounced [BAI-werd]) as [BEE-ward], [BAI-way] and just straight up "Wayward Market"
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I've always struggled with reality. And I'm pleased to say that I won.
There was an earlier posting about the name "Doherty". To me that has always been "DOE-(h)er-tee". The "h" is barely there, but definitely three syllables. Am I totally off base with that?
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) to point out that, in Canada, Fraser is almost always spelled with an "s", as opposed to the USA where the "z' and "zier" variants are fairly common.
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