YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[Canadian74]

BNE is daily ? That's good.... thought it was 3 or 4 weekly.
Would be nice to get some additional frequencies to HKG too from CX or AC

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Canadian74

BNE is daily ? That's good.... thought it was 3 or 4 weekly.
Would be nice to get some additional frequencies to HKG too from CX or AC

When AC announced BNE it was initially going to be 3x per week. It was restricted based on the Canada-Australia bilateral at the time of the announcement. Once the allowable capacity was increased, and in under two weeks, AC announced it was bumping YVR-BNE to daily.

I would think YVR-HKG could handle a few extra frequencies per week. According to what I've heard, AC on YVR-HKG is doing swimmingly. But I am unsure they would add additional frequencies there versus starting a new Asian route. I could see CX adding a third flight perhaps 3-4 times per week. I doubt they would be ready to add another daily flight off the bat. The last time they did that was to fight off Oasis... once Oasis was gone, CX rolled back to twice daily only.

[LeftCoaster]

^ It's starting out as 3 per week IIRC then going to daily quite quickly.

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

With the summer season about to officially kick off... let's say 1 May (BA 388)
I was looking over my notes and realised this has to be the largest increase in new routes/upgauges etc for as long as I remember. It's getting to the point of almost overwhelming.

But here goes as as brief a summary as possible compared to last summer.

This is changes only.

INTERNATIONAL

Air Canada

GAINS
ICN from 788 to 789
NRT from 788 to 77W
PVG from 788 to 77W
KIX increases from 5 to 6 weekly
DUB **new** 3 weekly rouge 763
LHR additional daily flight on a 788 - so double daily 77W/788
BNE **new** daily 788
PVR **new* once weekly rouge 763
PEK increased capacity from a 77W to a HD 77W
SYD increased capacity from a 77L to a HD 77L
LOSSES
SJD weekly 319 discontinued

China Airlines
TPE daily 744 for the entire summer - plus-
Frequency increase to 11 weekly for a longer period this summer.

Korean Air
ICN from 744 to 748

China Southern
CAN from 788 to 77W

British Airways
LHR from 12 weekly 744 to daily 388 (capacity reduction)

Lufthansa
MUC from daily 333 to 5x weekly 346 / 2x weekly 333

KLM
AMS from daily 333 to daily 772

All Nippon
HND from 788 to 789

Qantas
SYD 3 weekly on 744 for a longer run this summer

Aeromexico
MEX daily 73W/73H mix

Westjet
LGW **new** 6 weekly 763

Xiamen
XMN **new** 3 weekly 788

Philippines
MNL reduced from 11 weekly to 7 weekly 77W (capacity reduction)

Air Transat
LGW increased from 6 weekly to daily 332
FCO **new** one weekly 332

Condor
FRA increased from 4 to 5 weekly 763

Transborder changes - not in depth
AC new routes to SJC, SAN and ORD. EWR goes to a 788 from 319. LAX, ANC and SFO de-rouged. SEA/PDX to be all DH4.
WS new route to SAN. LIH and KOA dropped in favour of more OGG/HNL.
AS LAX dumped and mainline added to SEA.

Domestic changes - not in depth
WS new routes to YHM, YQU and YHZ.

Simply colossal, it's probably easier to put together what routes aren't being increased!

I was posting a bit earlier in the year that if the uptake of these routes is anywhere near the increase in seats we could be looking at a huge growth year. Fingers crossed the capacity is absorbed well!

Also look at the love from AC... perhaps the complaints about Air Toronto will cool down?

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

I would think YVR-HKG could handle a few extra frequencies per week. According to what I've heard, AC on YVR-HKG is doing swimmingly. But I am unsure they would add additional frequencies there versus starting a new Asian route. I could see CX adding a third flight perhaps 3-4 times per week. I doubt they would be ready to add another daily flight off the bat. The last time they did that was to fight off Oasis... once Oasis was gone, CX rolled back to twice daily only.

I'd much rather see a flight to SZX than another frequency to HKG, that would be perfect. Daily Hainan dreamliner would fit the route quite nicely.

[trofirhen]

I heard some time back that Craig richmond had expressed an interest in getting THY Vancouver to Istanbul, which I imagine would suit our needs better and with less contention than any of the M3 airlines. Today, I called YVR, couldn't get through to route development, but someone did tell me that there is in fact a petition going around to get Turkish (!) Any news on this? It would be a great one to have. ... IMHO

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

^ It's starting out as 3 per week IIRC then going to daily quite quickly.

Yes, when AC originally announced BNE it was going to start mid June. Then they rolled forward the start date to 1 June. Then they announced BNE would go daily. So for the first two weeks the flight is in fact 3x week only. Daily kicks in on the 17th June. The same day a lot of the international routes shuttle equipment.

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

I'd much rather see a flight to SZX than another frequency to HKG, that would be perfect. Daily Hainan dreamliner would fit the route quite nicely.

SZX is going crazy on the application front. I don't think there is anything official but I am confident YVR is being looked at very closely.

Keep in mind there is a backlog of Chinese Airlines applications for new routes to Canada. Now being hampered by the lack of available frequencies.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Keep in mind there is a backlog of Chinese Airlines applications for new routes to Canada. Now being hampered by the lack of available frequencies.

Would CAAC approve new routes even knowing that it will exceed the permitted frequency/capacity?

They recently released a list of approved new routes, and its pretty clear that not all the route applied will receive approval. Hainan's Tianjin-Vancouver was approved, but Tianjin's Chongqing-Tianjin-Vancouver and Beijing Capital's Hangzhou-Qingdao-Vancouver did not.

Just a note - CZ now planned to start CAN-YYZ in Sept. So apparently there are still capacity available...

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Today, I called YVR, couldn't get through to route development, but someone did tell me that there is in fact a petition going around to get Turkish (!)

I don't have any update to that, but I tip my hat to you taking action. You called all the way from France to YVR to inquire this? Props to you.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by nname

Would CAAC approve new routes even knowing that it will exceed the permitted frequency/capacity?

They recently released a list of approved new routes, and its pretty clear that not all the route applied will receive approval. Hainan's Tianjin-Vancouver was approved, but Tianjin's Chongqing-Tianjin-Vancouver and Beijing Capital's Hangzhou-Qingdao-Vancouver did not.

Just a note - CZ now planned to start CAN-YYZ in Sept. So apparently there are still capacity available...

CAN-YYZ was factored in to the quota. I believe they are restricted to only 4 weekly. My source says it is more complicated than just a simple # of frequencies per week. I am not privy to the whole story but safe to say there is definitely not the availability for all current applications.

I didn't realise Hainan's Tianjin-YVR route has been actually approved. Do you have details on that?

[mezzanine]

Stumbled on some old route maps for CP Air (1978):



http://timetablist.blogspot.ca

The incredibly complex connectivity of the classic Canadian Pacific Air Lines route network in October 1978 is shown here in this blazoning vintage advert. Then operating as CP Air, the aviation arm of the Canadian conglomerate offered passenger services to 14 international airports on five continents from no less than five separate gateways across Canada.

Particularly key was the European gateway of Amsterdam, which lined to four Canadian cities: Edmonton, Calgary, Winnipeg and Toronto, although somewhat oddly not its primary airport, Vancouver. CP Air jets also departed Toronto for Milan, and Rome, with onward service to Athens from both Rome and Amsterdam. Rome and Lisbon, but not Amsterdam, were served from Montreal, which also enjoyed service to Mexico City. Toronto was also linked to Mexico City as well as Acapulco and Lima. Whether the continuing service from Lima to Santiago, finally terminating at Buenos Aires, were originally from Toronto or Vancouver is unclear.

Hmmm, maybe in the old days, a lot of direct flights, but not non-stops..

[mezzanine]

And the other one from AC. (1971)



http://airline-memorabilia.blogspot.ca

Air Canada was serving the airline serving more European cities from Canada than any other carrier ... duh! quite an obvious fact, but still they had an impressive coverage of the European continent, serving cities both in Western and Eastern Europe (Prague was the latest addition to the Air Canada route map at the time). On the other hand, Air Canada was just confined to North American and European destinations.

Interesting that Montreal was a bigger hub than YYZ. And edmonton to copenhagen direct?

[casper]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

Stumbled on some old route maps for CP Air (1978):



http://timetablist.blogspot.ca



Hmmm, maybe in the old days, a lot of direct flights, but not non-stops..

Back then I did the CP service to Lisbon. I was a child back then. We would fly Vancouver to Toronto and connect onto the CP flight from Toronto, it would stop in Mirabel to take on additional passengers then continue on to Lisbon. Mirabel was actually an interesting airport, you would end on a remote stand, the cabin crew would open one of the side door and one of these passenger busses would dock onto the aircraft.

The CP flights were timed to connect with TAP Air Portugal service to Africa.

After CP ran into trouble and dropped the route in the 1990s, TAP Air Portugal started to operate it during the summer as a charter. Same route Toronto-Mirabel-Lisbon except they used an L1011.

Unfortunate CP died out. They were a great airline to fly on.

[nname]

That AC map is pretty hard to read...

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

I didn't realise Hainan's Tianjin-YVR route has been actually approved. Do you have details on that?

The original source is in Chinese, but here is an English summary of the list. Note that the "Vancouver" under China Eastern is a typo, as there is no mention of any new service by MU in the PDF.

So the following Canadian routes were approved in Q1, in this order (out of total 51 approvals):
#14 Shanghai-Montreal
#15 Guangzhou-Toronto
#23 Tianjin-Vancouver

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

With the summer season about to officially kick off... let's say 1 May (BA 388)
I was looking over my notes and realised this has to be the largest increase in new routes/upgauges etc for as long as I remember. It's getting to the point of almost overwhelming.

But here goes as as brief a summary as possible compared to last summer.

This is changes only.

INTERNATIONAL

Air Canada

GAINS
ICN from 788 to 789
NRT from 788 to 77W
PVG from 788 to 77W
KIX increases from 5 to 6 weekly
BNE **new** daily 788

China Southern
CAN from 788 to 77W

All downgrades in my eyes. 787 is easily the nicest plane to fly in. A bit sad to see upgrades from 787 to 777.

AC new routes to SJC, SAN and ORD. EWR goes to a 788 from 319.

On the other hand. Upgrade to New York.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

I heard some time back that Craig richmond had expressed an interest in getting THY Vancouver to Istanbul, which I imagine would suit our needs better and with less contention than any of the M3 airlines. Today, I called YVR, couldn't get through to route development, but someone did tell me that there is in fact a petition going around to get Turkish (!) Any news on this? It would be a great one to have. ... IMHO

Wow, love the dedication. Certainly would be a huge one to get IMO, great connections to the ME, Africa and India and Star Alliance to boot.

Would likely take a bite out of YVR-LHR traffic though.

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

SZX is going crazy on the application front. I don't think there is anything official but I am confident YVR is being looked at very closely.

Very strange that SZX was essentially a domestic airport for so long. huge unserved demand I would imagine.

any idea who would be interested in flying it? Only 2 listed airlines hubbing there with the equipment to fly to NA are Hainan and China Southern. CX would be unlikely due to their adjacent route from CAN so my guess is Hainan would be the likely operator?

Originally Posted by nname

The original source is in Chinese, but here is an English summary of the list. Note that the "Vancouver" under China Eastern is a typo, as there is no mention of any new service by MU in the PDF.

So the following Canadian routes were approved in Q1, in this order (out of total 51 approvals):
#14 Shanghai-Montreal
#15 Guangzhou-Toronto
#23 Tianjin-Vancouver

Somewhat frustrating that a lot of potential traffic is getting caught up in capacity restraints. I suppose it leaves some room for 2017 growth though, since as Johnny already showed us 2016 growth is pretty ambitious as is.

Is the China/Canada bilateral constantly being reassessed or will be it be done in a big announcement like Australia?

[nname]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Very strange that SZX was essentially a domestic airport for so long. huge unversed demand I would imagine.

any idea who would be interested in flying it? Only 2 listed airlines hubbing there are Hainan and China Southern. CX would be unlikely due to their adjacent route from CAN so my guess is Hainan would be the likley operator?

And also Shenzhen Airlines (Star Alliance, subsidiary of Air China). Air China does some of the long haul from SZX for now, but ZH planned to have their own long haul fleet eventually

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

Stumbled on some old route maps for CP Air (1978):

Hmmm, maybe in the old days, a lot of direct flights, but not non-stops..

Originally Posted by mezzanine

And the other one from AC. (1971)

Thanks for posting these... reminds me I have steamer trunk FULL of old airline memorabilia of which a lot are the old printed timetables. I have quite the collection! In fact I wouldn't be surprised if I have these exact ones from the late 70s. I don't have anything from 1971 though.

Makes me want to go home and crack it open and dig through my "treasures"

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by nname

So the following Canadian routes were approved in Q1, in this order (out of total 51 approvals):
#14 Shanghai-Montreal
#15 Guangzhou-Toronto
#23 Tianjin-Vancouver

Great! Thanks for the info. So it looks like Hainan will be coming after all! Very colourful. Looking forward to an official announcement.

So at least one of the Hainan Group of carriers will be coming to YVR. I have a feeling Tianjin won't now but Beijing Capital is still in the pipeline...

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

All downgrades in my eyes. 787 is easily the nicest plane to fly in. A bit sad to see upgrades from 787 to 777.


On the other hand. Upgrade to New York.

Yes, gains are in terms of capacity gains only - upgauges of aircraft. As for upgrades or downgrades of service... I'll leave that up to you guys to decide!

[ShawnShank]

American switches PHX to 738 (from A320) and reduces LAX to 1 daily E175 instead of 2, starting this fall

http://airlineroute.net/2016/04/27/aa-yvr-aug16/

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by ShawnShank

American switches PHX to 738 (from A320) and reduces LAX to 1 daily E175 instead of 2, starting this fall

http://airlineroute.net/2016/04/27/aa-yvr-aug16/

Which has more pax capacity, an A320 or a 738?