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  #221  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2016, 9:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinion View Post
What's up with Bond?? Even Lisa "no to everything" Muri is on board. This is a no-brainer.
Well, he's a transportation engineer with the Ministry.. so either he knows exactly what he's talking about, or he's got a big axe to grind with somebody.
     
     
  #222  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2016, 9:20 PM
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Cool and could be a good idea here. But what section of the highway would see the collector system?

I guess your local politicians have also been stuck in the congestion one too many time to finally admit the reality.
     
     
  #223  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2016, 9:28 PM
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Well, he's a transportation engineer with the Ministry.. so either he knows exactly what he's talking about, or he's got a big axe to grind with somebody.
His doubt comes from some giant hwy in Houston. That has nothing to do with an underbuilt creek bridge on the region's only highway. Hwy 1 traffic will still only be four lanes, the other four would be for the north shore east/west traffic. If anything that's not wide enough for Hwy 1.

Reposting for the new page

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Originally Posted by Pinion View Post
I was not expecting this for the cut... at least it's looking like a new Lynn Creek bridge is an inevitability



Ministry investigating new design for the Cut

Transportation planners from the District of North Vancouver and province are floating a new idea aimed at easing traffic on the Cut.

District council members got their first look Monday night at a new design for a “collector distribution system” – a concrete barrier dividing traffic bound for the Ironworkers Memorial Second Narrows Crossing from traffic headed for local exits.

“The weaving and merging that happens on the highway would then happen on a separated road system,” said Tegan Smith, transportation planner for the district. “Staff believe this option provides significant capacity to separate the local and the highway traffic and starts to get at the heart of the issues that have been facing the district’s transportation network.”

Similar dividers are used on highways running around Surrey, Montreal and Toronto. For drivers coming down the cut, the “decision point” would be just before the Mountain Highway overpass. The idea would be contingent on the province and feds coming up with grants to help pay the cost of installing a new eight-lane Highway 1 bridge over Lynn Creek.

The staff presentation did not include a cost estimate for the collector distribution idea, but it would be on top of the $150-million price tag for the already-in-the-works revamp of all three interchanges at the bridgehead. The Ministry of Transportation has hired a consultant to model traffic flows on the Highway 1 corridor, looking to see if the collector distribution system will have a real-life impact on travel times. Those results are due in June.

While much of council was eager to see anything that might ease congestion, there was debate over whether the costs would prove worthwhile, particularly from Coun. Mathew Bond, who is a transportation systems engineer with the ministry.

Big-ticket road widening projects have been shown to have counterproductive results, Bond said. He pointed to Texas spending $2.3 billion widening the Katy Freeway in Houston up to 23 lanes only to have travel times for commuters increase by 51 per cent in the following three years.

“I’m worried we might be doing the popular thing and not necessarily the good thing or the right thing,” he said.

The issue ought to be of particular significance for young people, who tend to have less car-reliant lifestyles, Bond said, but rarely participate in council’s consultation processes.

“I question these (assumptions). I want to see the data. Show me that it’s going to work. Show me that it makes sense for the long term because for the next 20 or 30 years of debt financing it takes to pay for this, we’re going to be paying the bill,” he said.

But the point of the project isn’t just to clear-up notorious Cut traffic for commuters headed over the Ironworkers, others on council argued, but rather to separate our own local east-west traffic.

“Is it going to solve everything? No. Is it going to be expensive? Yup. Do we have to do it? I think we do,” Coun. Lisa Muri said. “Think good thoughts that this will happen before we all retire.”

And with driverless vehicles coming on the market soon and fundamentally changing commuter patterns, the highway projects may prove to have lots of capacity for the future, Coun. Roger Bassam added.

“We don’t know where this is going but we do know the engineering we have right now is not very good. It’s not very efficient,” he said.

Detailed design work for the Mountain Highway interchange, meanwhile, is nearly 90 per cent done and contracts for the work will be tendered over the summer, with construction coming this fall.

- See more at: http://www.nsnews.com/news/ministry-....b11L7JYH.dpuf

What's up with Bond?? Even Lisa "no to everything" Muri is on board. This is a no-brainer.
     
     
  #224  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2016, 10:43 PM
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I was not expecting this for the cut... at least it's looking like a new Lynn Creek bridge is an inevitability

Over the years, I have postulated on this site that an express/collector set-up was ideal for Hwy 1 from the north IWMB bridgehead right up to the Mountain Hwy interchange (inclusive of the Lynn Creek Bridge). Just too many entrances/exits in that stretch - resulting in weaving and a potential higher accident rate.

Frankly, I only expected same (C/D) to happen once the new IWMB was replaced by a new structure akin to the new PMB.

BTW, I noticed that the rendering of the proposed new Lynn Creek Bridge only includes 2 express lanes in each direction - Higher up the newer portion of the Upper Levels is a 3+3 cross-section. Suspect it will be expandable/upgradeable to a 2+3+3+2 cross-section once the IWMB bridge is replaced - likely wayyy down the road though.
     
     
  #225  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2016, 11:38 PM
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His doubt comes from some giant hwy in Houston. That has nothing to do with an underbuilt creek bridge on the region's only highway.
North Vancouver councillor Mathew Bond is actually an "Intelligent Systems Transportation Engineer". His field of expertise revolves around MoTI highway cams, those freeway traffic destination time estimates, installed highway border crossing time estimates, etc., etc.... basically an IT guy within MoTI.

He has no specialization in either traffic engineering or highway planning/design.
     
     
  #226  
Old Posted Apr 25, 2016, 11:54 PM
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His doubt comes from some giant hwy in Houston.
The famous Katy Freeway in question is indeed a huge one. Having driven it, I have troubles believing it will ever be congested. It puts even 401 to shame.





     
     
  #227  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
BTW, I noticed that the rendering of the proposed new Lynn Creek Bridge only includes 2 express lanes in each direction - Higher up the newer portion of the Upper Levels is a 3+3 cross-section. Suspect it will be expandable/upgradeable to a 2+3+3+2 cross-section once the IWMB bridge is replaced - likely wayyy down the road though.
Yeah I think six lanes is needed for the bridge just to keep it from being a bottleneck. Getting east/west traffic out of the way is nice but four lanes for that is arguably overbuilt, especially with the new four lane Keith bridge down river. I'd rather see 1+3+3+1 or ideally 2+3+3+2, but that would freak out the "OMG TEN LANES!!" people again.

Ideally nothing should be built with just one lane each way though, like the new Low Level road is still useless because all it takes is one old person driving 30km/h to back it up.
     
     
  #228  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 12:30 AM
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And he's an electrical engineer..
     
     
  #229  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 2:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Pinion View Post
Yeah I think six lanes is needed for the bridge just to keep it from being a bottleneck. Getting east/west traffic out of the way is nice but four lanes for that is arguably overbuilt, especially with the new four lane Keith bridge down river. I'd rather see 1+3+3+1 or ideally 2+3+3+2, but that would freak out the "OMG TEN LANES!!" people again.

Ideally nothing should be built with just one lane each way though, like the new Low Level road is still useless because all it takes is one old person driving 30km/h to back it up.
Remember that feeds into the 6 lanes IWMB - so the 2+2+2+2 will eventually become 1+2+2+1 at the bridge
- which means that last merge from Main St. will still be hairy
- and through traffic in the collector lane won't be able to merge left to get out of the way because of the jersey barrier.
     
     
  #230  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 3:19 AM
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I really dislike when people compare small, specific infrastructure improvements to the very biggest freeway projects, like him comparing a short 8 lane bridge to the 23 lane, 40km Katy Freeway. It's hard to have a worthwhile conversation with such entrenched positions, they will always oppose all road improvements.
     
     
  #231  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 3:21 AM
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Yeah I don't know how you could compare this with the Katy Freeway, which is the most over-the-top freeway design I've ever seen. I mean do we really need auxiliary lanes just for changing between GP and HOV lanes? I understand that with unlimited money you might want to build it to increase speed/safety by like 1%, but my god, Houston desperately needs to invest in a rapid transit network. Put some money there, before spending on insignificant add-ons...

The Katy is probably the new textbook example of induced demand. It is cool driving along it, though.

Anyways, this looks like a good proposal. But the DNV was also wanting to build a local bridge to the north, in conjunction with this one. I hope the local lanes here don't somehow include the literal local lanes from the new connection between Lillooet and Mountain Hwy.
     
     
  #232  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 4:07 AM
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Remember that feeds into the 6 lanes IWMB - so the 2+2+2+2 will eventually become 1+2+2+1 at the bridge
- which means that last merge from Main St. will still be hairy
- and through traffic in the collector lane won't be able to merge left to get out of the way because of the jersey barrier.
I really need to see how this is gonna work after the bridge. Is the point to segregate Mt Seymour Parkway/Mountain Hwy northbound traffic? How does the Fern St overpass fit in? I'm confused.
     
     
  #233  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 5:14 AM
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Some more slides:





And from the minutes:

Quote:
Subject to a favorable business case, Lynn Creek Bridge is a candidate for additional Build Canada funding. MOTI’s consultant is modelling the improvements to provide data for the new business case. Lynn Creek Bridge replacement is critical for achieving the District’s objectives of:

Direct access to Highway 1 eastbound from Lynn Valley at Mountain interchange;
Additional road capacity that can more effectively separate highway 1 traffic from local traffic for access to Seymour.

Plans for the Main-Dollarton interchange have not advanced since the Lower Lynn interchanges study in 2014. However, there are likely additional opportunities to evolve the design to enhance access to Port Metro Vancouver lands and better integrate with plans for the new Phibbs exchange.
If they get local traffic off the highway then having two lanes (of highway traffic) each way through those sections might not be that bad.
     
     
  #234  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 7:51 AM
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Thanks, what's the source? I can't find anything on dnv.org.

Are there that many people from the eastern north shore going to Lynn Valley? I can see Lonsdale, or west further to Lions Gate/Park Royal etc, but who goes to Lynn Valley from, say, Deep Cove, for anything other than nature walks?
     
     
  #235  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 3:40 PM
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Thanks, what's the source? I can't find anything on dnv.org.

Are there that many people from the eastern north shore going to Lynn Valley? I can see Lonsdale, or west further to Lions Gate/Park Royal etc, but who goes to Lynn Valley from, say, Deep Cove, for anything other than nature walks?
In the Council Minutes for a recent workshop:

http://app.dnv.org/OpenDocument/Default.aspx?docNum=2865827
     
     
  #236  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 4:28 PM
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Are there that many people from the eastern north shore going to Lynn Valley? I can see Lonsdale, or west further to Lions Gate/Park Royal etc, but who goes to Lynn Valley from, say, Deep Cove, for anything other than nature walks?
For everything east of 2nd Narrows, the closest mall is still in Lynn Valley.

However, it's getting to Save on Foods/Park and Tilford/Keith Road from the highway that causes back ups.
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  #237  
Old Posted Apr 26, 2016, 9:21 PM
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Thanks.
Good to know that the barriers will stop well before the Main St. on-ramps.
     
     
  #238  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2016, 1:07 AM
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Thanks.
Good to know that the barriers will stop well before the Main St. on-ramps.
It should go all the way. If you want to exit to Main Street, you should have to use the collector lanes from Mountain. North Vancouver has such a lack of good internal connections, that to complete a lot of non-bridge trips you still have to use the TCH. It would be good to separate traffic bound for those exits from traffic bound for the bridge.
     
     
  #239  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2016, 2:18 AM
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It should go all the way. If you want to exit to Main Street, you should have to use the collector lanes from Mountain. North Vancouver has such a lack of good internal connections, that to complete a lot of non-bridge trips you still have to use the TCH. It would be good to separate traffic bound for those exits from traffic bound for the bridge.
Agreed, I'd like to see the barriers go right onto the start of the bridge to stop people from changing lanes right at the beginning when they don't have to. That's what really slows everything down.

Edit: this of course would require six lanes from mtn hwy to the bridge, which is inexplicably not in the plans.

Last edited by Pinion; Apr 27, 2016 at 2:38 AM.
     
     
  #240  
Old Posted Apr 27, 2016, 8:37 PM
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The problem with having 2 express lanes and 1 collector lane on the bridge approach is that it makes the 2 on-ramps from Main Street dangerous, because the traffic in the single collector lane cannot move left (as a courtesy) in times of light traffic.

What they could do is widen the HWY 1 overpass over Main St. and have the 2 on-ramps merge before taking their own lane on the bridge:


https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.312798,-123.0267619,907a,20y,184.26h,44.74t/data=!3m1!1e3

They could probably do the same thing within the existing width of the overpass (5 lanes) if:
- they shifted the "exit only" point from the Main St. westbound exit to the Main/Dollarton eastbound exit (
Main St. westbound would just be an exit off the 2 lane hwy)
- then Hwy 1 northbound would just use 2 lanes of the overpass, and the southbound could use 3 lanes of the overpass (2 Hwy 1 and 1 on-ramp).


https://www.google.ca/maps/@49.312798,-123.0267619,907a,20y,184.26h,44.74t/data=!3m1!1e3

Last edited by officedweller; Apr 27, 2016 at 9:08 PM.
     
     
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