NEW YORK | Penn Station / MSG Renovation

[Submariner]

Originally Posted by scalziand

Looks like Marilyn Monroe's skirt getting blown up by the subway vent.

The current Penn Station invokes similar feelings, except instead of Monroe, it's a homeless meth addicts tattered frock that is blown sky high.

All things considered, I think your vision is far more appealing.

[ethereal_reality]

Originally Posted by scalziand

Looks like Marilyn Monroe's skirt getting blown up by the subway vent.

Cleverest comment of the day.

[Arthururban]

A slightly older article but still interesting to read.

Read more: http://www.theverge.com/2016/2/28/11126546/penn-station-worst-train-lirr-amtrak-nj-transit

Inside America's worst train station
What makes New York's Penn Station suck so bad?

Once upon a time, New York’s Pennsylvania Station was not a hell hole. In fact, it was one of the grandest places in America. Built in 1910 on the West Side of Manhattan, the original structure was majestic, a reflection of principal architect Charles McKim’s vision to celebrate "the entrance to one of the great metropolitan cities of the world." And celebrate it did, from its Beaux Arts exterior of pink granite and marble, to its stately colonnade, to its cavernous main waiting hall inspired by the Roman Baths of Caracalla. It was one of the architectural jewels of New York City.

Today, Penn Station is more like a polished turd, except it’s not really polished. It’s been called “the worst place in New York City,” “the worst transit experience in the US,” and “the worst place on Earth” — and that’s just from Googling one adjective. It’s home to three different railroads: Amtrak, New Jersey Transit, and Long Island Rail Road, but it is almost entirely owned by Amtrak. Madison Square Garden squats on top of the station, choking off all natural light and air. Its cramped corridors, suffocating odors, confusing signage, and baffling layout make the overall experience of traveling through Penn Station equal to a very invasive, very unnecessary surgery. Without anesthesia.

But forget all that, because Penn Station is getting a makeover. In January, New York Governor Andrew Cuomo unveiled his grand plan for the nation’s busiest-but-dingiest train station (600,000 passengers a day, 200 million a year). Calling it the “biggest construction project in our state’s history,” Cuomo said he would remake the current rat’s nest under Madison Square Garden, while also transforming the nearly vacant James A. Farley Post Office across the street into a new passenger waiting area. He called for the creation of a new glass-walled entrance, the razing of a 5,600-seat theater under Madison Square Garden, and brand new retail. The hopelessly tarnished name “Penn Station” would fade from memory. This would be the “Empire Station Complex.”

To truly appreciate how transformative a redesigned Penn Station could be for the New York region, one must first embrace the misery that is Penn Station today; only then can one understand how a new station would be not only cathartic to the public, but also crucial to the future of transportation in the Northeast. To do that, I called up James Ramsey, founder of Raad Studio, former NASA engineer, co-creator of the Lowline project, and all-around keen architectural eye, and asked him to give us an expert's look at why exactly this place sucks so much — to play Virgil to our Dante as we descend into the hellish circles of New York's Pennsylvania Station.

There are three circles, or levels, to Penn Station, each corresponding to a different railroad. Each section is distinct with its own signage, its own lighting, its own color scheme, and its own idiosyncrasies for frustrating riders. That was one of Ramsey's takeaways after our slog through the transit hub: the lack of a unifying theme. "Three fiefdoms," Ramsey said, "being smashed by a giant commercial interest."

We started in Amtrak's concourse, with its mirrored columns, baby blue color scheme, and shadow-canceling lighting overhead. The departures board is hung ponderously in the middle of the room like a giant guillotine blade. Surrounding it were hundreds of frowning commuters waiting for the numbers to change so they could get the hell out of here. Classical music drifted from somewhere above in an all-too-obvious attempt to create a cultured environment. It failed.

(.....)

[jbermingham123]

^^It seems like this "empire station complex" plan, is really just polishing the turd, to use his analogy. Why are they spending money to revamp this station when MSG only has another ~20 years left?? When MSG goes, they will just have to tear everything back out

[Arthururban]

^Agreed!

[BrownTown]

Why do people even give a shit about making it better looking? It's a train station, not an art gallery. I'm there for the minimum amount of time possible no matter what it looks like. The Billions of dollars spent on these sort of, "lipstick on a pig" improvements could help huge numbers of people if plowed into new subway lines like SAS and Utica Ave. instead of making a bunch of pretty train stations that don't do anything to help out commuters and are just there to make the city look nicer to tourists.

[drumz0rz]

Originally Posted by BrownTown

Why do people even give a shit about making it better looking? It's a train station, not an art gallery. I'm there for the minimum amount of time possible no matter what it looks like. The Billions of dollars spent on these sort of, "lipstick on a pig" improvements could help huge numbers of people if plowed into new subway lines like SAS and Utica Ave. instead of making a bunch of pretty train stations that don't do anything to help out commuters and are just there to make the city look nicer to tourists.

Why build an airport terminal beyond a small grey box with the minimum required space to be functional? Why bother painting the walls or hanging artwork in an office, I'm there to work and get out. Why aren't all cars identical aerodynamic boxes without wasteful aesthetic designs, after all, they're just a means to get from point a to point b. Why don't we all just wear the same optimal clothing of a uniform color and style, since it's just a means to insulate our bodies from the environment and nothing more.

[Busy Bee]

Here here.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by drumz0rz

Why build an airport terminal beyond a small grey box with the minimum required space to be functional? Why bother painting the walls or hanging artwork in an office, I'm there to work and get out. Why aren't all cars identical aerodynamic boxes without wasteful aesthetic designs, after all, they're just a means to get from point a to point b. Why don't we all just wear the same optimal clothing of a uniform color and style, since it's just a means to insulate our bodies from the environment and nothing more.

Hell if I know, I wonder the same all the time. The amount of money wasted on this shit while millions of people suffer and die is absurd.

[Busy Bee]

I can't tell if you're being serious and I don't think I'm the only one.

[RobEss]

^ Yeah, really.

Quality of life clearly means very little to this man, he must lead a very fulfilled existence.

[BrownTown]

Originally Posted by RobEss

^ Yeah, really.

Quality of life clearly means very little to this man, he must lead a very fulfilled existence.

I don't need a 4 Billion dollar stegosaurus skeleton at my train station to have quality of life..

If they want to do something at Penn Station to improve my quality of life make the bathrooms not be so totally disgusting. If people here really get a big quality of life boost from a new entrance and think spending Billions of dollars on it makes sense then this world really is upside down. We could built Phase II of the SAS instead of provide REAL quality of life improvements to another 100,000 projected riders on that segment.

[Busy Bee]

You need to get some philosophy my man. What you don't seem to see here is that a vital public space and utility like Penn should reflect the ambitions and potential of a society and the values of a culture — much like high art and literature displays the depth and light of mankind. It's not just about function. An artless world is one I wouldn't want to experience.

[BBMW]

I was thinking the same thing. I need to go to JC on business. I've been watching them build the stegosaurus. What an obscene waste of tax money. Same thing with the Fulton Transportation Center. Both are a huge waste of money and space.

Public transit stations should be simple, pleasant, and functional. Building these temples to what? transportation, is absurd when done on public funds. Those funds would be much better spend on the direct transportation functionality, or, if not necessary for that, not spent at all, and not collected in the first place as fares or taxes.

Everyone wants to buy their architectural virginity back by rebuilding the old Penn Station. That was built by a private company, and it's opulence was a form of advertising. That's fine. But now it's being done out of tax funds, and the advertising function is not necessary.

Originally Posted by BrownTown

I don't need a 4 Billion dollar stegosaurus skeleton at my train station to have quality of life..

If they want to do something at Penn Station to improve my quality of life make the bathrooms not be so totally disgusting. If people here really get a big quality of life boost from a new entrance and think spending Billions of dollars on it makes sense then this world really is upside down. We could built Phase II of the SAS instead of provide REAL quality of life improvements to another 100,000 projected riders on that segment.

[chris08876]

Industry heavyweights eye a piece of Penn Station's $3 billion redevelopment

A $3 billion plan to renovate Penn Station has attracted some of the city's biggest developers.

Several large real estate landlords and builders—including Boston Properties, Brookfield, Related Cos., Silverstein Properties, Tishman Speyer and Vornado Realty Trust—attended a tour of the transit hub on Feb. 25, according to a document provided by the Empire State Development Corp.

The state agency is overseeing a request for proposals to solicit a developer to improve the station with new retail, upgraded interior spaces and better entrances, including a plan to potentially relocate the Theater at Madison Square Garden and create a large glass opening to the station along Eighth Avenue.

Developers were also invited to bid on transforming the Farley Post Office Building, west of the Moynihan Station, would also accommodate retail stores and potentially also office and hotel space.

Other notable developers, including Madison Capital and JDS Development, the builder of what will be the tallest residential tower in Brooklyn, also participated in the site tour. It's not clear which firms will submit bids, but sources said that most are likely to participate.

Potential lenders who may help finance the megaproject were also present. Among them were Bank of China, Barclays and Macquarie Capital. Architecture and construction firms, including Tishman Construction, Skanska, FX Fowle, Gensler, SOM, Tutor Perini and Thornton Tomasetti, were also present.

Bids for the project, which would be paid for by private developers in return for revenue from the new retail and commercial space, are due April 22.

Gov. Andrew Cuomo unveiled the plan to remake Penn Station at the beginning of the year as part of a bold slate of infrastructure projects. Under the latest plan, a redeveloped Penn Station and Farley Buidling would be known as the Empire Station Complex. A decade ago, the state selected developers Vornado and Related to jointly convert the Farley Building into Moynihan Station. The developers eventually expanded that plan to include relocating Madison Square Garden from atop Penn Station to the western annex of the Farley Building and gut-renovating the station. That plan fell apart during the recession. In recent years, a more modest $300 million plan was undertaken to install entrances in the Farley Building connecting to Penn Station's tracks.

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http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/201...s-eye-a-piece-of-penn-stations-3-billion

[BBMW]

Following up on the cost comparison between the soon to be complete WTC transportation center and any possible rebuild of the old Penn Station, here's an article that breaks down the WTC TC costs:

http://therealdeal.com/issues_articles/the-path-to-4-billion/

[Arthururban]

what are "administrative costs"?

[dc_denizen]

rebuild it exactly the way it was in 1910.

[chris08876]

MSG Move Would Be a $5B Nightmare Dressed Like a Daydream: Transit Group

With his record breaking 36 sold-out shows at Madison Square Garden, Billy Joel seems to own Eighth Avenue between West 31st and West 33rd Streets. And moving the Piano Man—even a few blocks away—wouldn’t be economically sound.

A report released today by the Rudin Center for Transportation Policy and Management suggests relocating the arena to a nearby location would cost upwards of $5 billion, take a particularly long time and become an urban planner’s worst nightmare. The findings are part of the think tank’s study of a recently proposed overhaul of Pennsylvania Station and its extension to the James A. Farley Post Office opposite Eighth Avenue.

Civic Groups pining for a new version of the old Penn Station might be well intended, but “are pursuing a dream that is unlikely to ever be fulfilled,” Mitchell Moss, the head of the Rudin Center, told Commercial Observer, adding that proposals for an above-ground station on MSG’s footprint “is another example of architects run wild.”

Advocates for a new Penn Station—one similar to the one demolished in the early 1960s—have pushed in the last few years to relocate MSG, which was completed at its current site in 1968. In 2013, the New York City Council only renewed the stadium’s special permit (like a lease) at the site for 10 years until 2023 in hopes that it would be relocated. MSG had a 50-year approval that allowed the structure to act as an arena, as Commercial Observer reported last year.

Mr. Moss said Penn Station has become a place of quick transfers between subway lines, the Long Island Railroad and NJ Transit. Thus it isn’t a landing point like Grand Central Terminal or the World Trade Center PATH Station that have spacious waiting areas as did the old Penn Station.

But to do so now in the frenzy of development along Manhattan’s West Side would be particularly complicated, according to the report. One site it suggests as an alternative is the Morgan Annex of the U.S. Postal Service, which spans Ninth to 10th Avenues from West 28th to West 30th Streets. The price tag on that land could still be costly, even if values aren’t what they were a year ago, with the report estimating the acquisition of that site running between $750 million and $800 million.

Demolition of the existing building at that site and construction of a new MSG would be at minimum $1.6 billion in 2016 currency, according to the study. That includes a new 5,600-seat theater that’s part of the current arena—something already expected to be demolished (and relocated to a yet-to-be-determined location) to make way for a brighter entrance to Penn Station. Even demolition of the existing MSG, which underwent a $1 billion renovation between 2010 and 2013, could cost roughly $65 million.

Building an entirely new Penn Station while LIRR, NJ Transit and Amtrak trains continue to run could cost anywhere from $2 billion to $2.5 billion. Ground-up development of a new train hub on what’s currently the MSG site would also require acquiring and demolishing Vornado Realty Trust’s Two Penn Plaza next door to the arena, according to the report, which would cost north of $600 million.

Buying Two Penn Plaza doesn’t seem all that likely, either, since Vornado announced in a February earnings call that it plans to upgrade and integrate the building with One Penn Plaza, creating a 4.2-million-square-foot complex. Executives at Vornado, which owns 9 million square feet in the surrounding area, have supported the state’s plans to upgrade the existing Penn Station. Chief Executive Officer Steven Roth said at the time that Two Penn Plaza would be getting a new exterior that should dovetail with the planned entrance renovations for the station below it.

“The skin will also involve the entrance on Seventh Avenue to Penn Station which is directly under our building which is the main entrance to Penn Station,” Mr. Roth said on the call, “so there’s lots of things going on here which are enormously exciting.”

A traffic headache could be in the making, too, if MSG moves a block west and two blocks to the south. The report suggests that more sports fans and concert-goers will likely take cabs or drive to games instead of taking the subway because it’s two blocks from the subway station. There are six subway lines—the A, C, E, 1, 2 and 3 trains—directly under the current complex.

“More importantly [if MSG was moved west, it] would be surrounded by a flourishing residential area,” Mr. Moss said.“I think there’s a general misunderstanding about how important it is to have a high-use sports facility above mass transit.”

==========================
https://commercialobserver.com/2016/04/m...e-dressed-like-a-daydream-transit-group/

[jayden]

I have to say the earlier article's description regarding today's Penn Station is so very accurate. It's by far the worst experience coming into the city from the burbs; I can only imagine the nightmare of regional travelers using Amtrak.

My question is, how will all this renovation, demolition, and construction take place without making the area 10x worse for several years than it already is currently?