Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[mezzanine]

Originally Posted by officedweller

BIV article:

Evergreen Line delay costs lead to mediation, B.C. government hiding info on costs, changes and challenges
https://www.biv.com/article/2016/4/evergreen-line-delay-costs-lead-mediation-bc-gover/

Cross posting to the Broadway Extension thread as it also cites an FOI released (and redacted) document about that project, including a Stantec "Reference Project" report.

NOTE: As with Canada Line a "Reference Project" is not the same as an "As-Built Project".

IMO not sure why he put the tie-in with the broadway extention other than to obfuscate it with "problems" with the evergreen line.

The reports are about the design and business case for the projects, but TransLink claimed the information is subject to change and disclosure could harm commercial negotiations.

Bob Mackin takes issue with that?

-----

WRT the evergreen project, the story is important but as present this is not a negative on the govt. Cost overruns are on SNC Lavalin as it is a fixed price contract. Of course, the govt should stick to its guns, and we should pay attention that it does, but the headline suggests that the fault is with victoria.

[CurtisVerbatim]

Not sure if this is common knowledge, but UBC is building another dorm tower on top of what will be the future underground bus loop. They are building it so that it will accommodate a subway station as part of their contribution to the line. I heard about this yesterday from my boss who will probably be running the electrical portion of the job provided we get the contract.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

I wonder how do other cities do it, as they have high rises quiet close to major hospital with heli service like VGH with no problem (ie. Seattle). I think the distance between Seattle Muni Tower and Columbia Centre to Harbourview Medical Centre is the same distance as Vancouver General to Broadway. ...

I only notice that the towers in Seattle are well marked with Aviation beacons - something that Vancouver's towers DONT which honestly surprise me since Vancouver has floatplane and heli-jet service. And the US FAA is very restrictive on highrise development, but allowed these towers on a 300 foot slope very close to the hospital (which itself is 500 feet elevation on the same slope) .....

I'm not advocating a '950 foot Columbia Centre tower' to be built on Oak/Broadway, but I don't see why anything around 300-400 feet range couldn't be built. Appears to me to be more NIMBYism by VGH (and it's views) rather than a real threat to its approach.

It might depend on the level of traffic. VGH is one of only 2 Level 1 Trauma Centers in the lower mainland. And their helipad is about 5-6 stories up, not on the actual top of the building. It's already a somewhat crowded approach, impeded on 3 sides by other hospital campus buildings.

Comparing the two on google maps, Harborview has a little more space. But admittedly I'm no expert on helipads.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

It might depend on the level of traffic. VGH is one of only 2 Level 1 Trauma Centers in the lower mainland. And their helipad is about 5-6 stories up, not on the actual top of the building. It's already a somewhat crowded approach, impeded on 3 sides by other hospital campus buildings.

Comparing the two on google maps, Harborview has a little more space. But admittedly I'm no expert on helipads.

I was at VGH at the beginning of the year and for a time my friend's room was overlooking the helipad. We always saw the helicopters rise and take off roughly towards Granville Bridge before turning and disappearing. I'm pretty sure VGH wouldn't want tall towers on Broadway for blocks on either side of Oak. Considering how many helicopter landings / takeoffs we saw, I can't say that I blame them.

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by Sheba

I was at VGH at the beginning of the year and for a time my friend's room was overlooking the helipad. We always saw the helicopters rise and take off roughly towards Granville Bridge before turning and disappearing. I'm pretty sure VGH wouldn't want tall towers on Broadway for blocks on either side of Oak. Considering how many helicopter landings / takeoffs we saw, I can't say that I blame them.

We should repeat that line to all of the naysayers/critics who think that the only reason a Broadway subway is being pushed for is to facilitate high-rise towers in Central Broadway. From what you said, it is clearly infeasible.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by mezzanine

IMO not sure why he put the tie-in with the broadway extention other than to obfuscate it with "problems" with the evergreen line.



Bob Mackin takes issue with that?

-----

WRT the evergreen project, the story is important but as present this is not a negative on the govt. Cost overruns are on SNC Lavalin as it is a fixed price contract. Of course, the govt should stick to its guns, and we should pay attention that it does, but the headline suggests that the fault is with victoria.

There is ONE sentance in the article that talks about change orders.....what I assume is the heart of the issue. That sentence talks about 75 change orders for things like changes to bus stops and communications frequencies. Standard stuff I assume is covered by the contingency fund. For now I assume this is a nothing story.

[officedweller]

WRT helicopter flight paths, here's a article on 2 new residential towers under the flight path into Toronto's Sick Kids Hospital:

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2016/04/two-building-condo-development-proposed-bay-and-edward

The orange swath is the flight path:


Helicopter flight path above Bay and Edward Condos, image retrieved from the City of Toronto
http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2016/04/two-building-condo-development-proposed-bay-and-edward

EDIT: Sound insulating requirements:

The site's position below the helicopter flight path and immediately north of the active Toronto Coach Terminal presents a challenge for the developers, who must take the inherent noise conditions into account. To meet indoor noise guideline criteria, all residents will have air conditioning to avoid having to open windows, while Sound Transmission Class (STC) 34 windows will be required on the east, west and south facades of the development.

http://urbantoronto.ca/news/2016/04/two-building-condo-development-proposed-bay-and-edward

[WarrenC12]

It's hard to tell without looking in 3D, but wow, I wouldn't want to be that helicopter pilot or living/working in any of those buildings.

I hear the chopper going to/from VGH all of the time from Yaletown. It's actually louder as it gets close to the VGH pad and the sound bounces off of all of the surrounding buildings.

[ClaytonA]

Broadway Subway ($99M)

 Planning, design, and related activitiesto prepare for procurement.

SkyTrain power systems and automatic train control system upgrades, to accommodate expansion of the SkyTrain fleet

Improvements to expand capacity at SkyTrain Edmonds Operations and Maintenance Centre, to accommodate expansion of the SkyTrain fleet

http://www.translink.ca/-/media/Document...20_phase_1_project_list%20_june_2016.pdf

Interesting they may be installing infrastructure upgrades on the existing system (power, maintenance center) with this first phase to have the capacity east of Commercial. If it gets extended again to UBC from Arbutus as per the original plan, then would their be capability to do this again relatively cheaply? Or are their things they could do with this round to be ready for UBC too?

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

http://www.translink.ca/-/media/Document...20_phase_1_project_list%20_june_2016.pdf

Interesting they may be installing infrastructure upgrades on the existing system (power, maintenance center) with this first phase to have the capacity east of Commercial. If it gets extended again to UBC from Arbutus as per the original plan, then would their be capability to do this again relatively cheaply? Or are their things they could do with this round to be ready for UBC too?

Translation: "Upgrade our 30 year old 386's to new hardware", The average memory in a system in 1987 was 4MB. Today the average is 8GB.

In all fairness, the upgrades for the Millennium line (the full UBC to Coquitlam line) likely were designed around what was available in 1998 (which would have been a Pentium II with 64MB of ram) even if the software itself changed little between the original UTDC Seltrac and the Alcatel version. The current version is from Thales and is what the Canada Line would be running. So it's likely the current system has always had the capacity to run the UBC subway and the Evergreen line, and the Langley Skytrain extension.

The other thing that changed was the inductive loop technology to 802.11 technology. No idea what the expense would be to switch over the entire Expo and Millenium Line to this, but it would involve at the minimum changing radios out on all the cars, or running them in parallel with the inductive loop taking precedence. So it's doable, but likely wouldn't be done before the MK I cars are retired since retrofitting more equipment into those would probably be questionable.

So in terms of capacity, I'm pretty sure the only bottleneck in an upgrade is the inductive loop. Note here https://dodger.home.xs4all.nl/tech.htm "Interface up to 16 track loops"

The systems management system is independent, and that is what was upgraded to in 2012 NetTrac.

[officedweller]

... and the additional traction power requirements are because additional trains on the tracks would draw more power. That's a standard piecemeal type of expansion.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Kisai

Translation: "Upgrade our 30 year old 386's to new hardware", The average memory in a system in 1987 was 4MB. Today the average is 8GB.

In all fairness, the upgrades for the Millennium line (the full UBC to Coquitlam line) likely were designed around what was available in 1998 (which would have been a Pentium II with 64MB of ram) even if the software itself changed little between the original UTDC Seltrac and the Alcatel version. The current version is from Thales and is what the Canada Line would be running. So it's likely the current system has always had the capacity to run the UBC subway and the Evergreen line, and the Langley Skytrain extension.

The other thing that changed was the inductive loop technology to 802.11 technology. No idea what the expense would be to switch over the entire Expo and Millenium Line to this, but it would involve at the minimum changing radios out on all the cars, or running them in parallel with the inductive loop taking precedence. So it's doable, but likely wouldn't be done before the MK I cars are retired since retrofitting more equipment into those would probably be questionable.

So in terms of capacity, I'm pretty sure the only bottleneck in an upgrade is the inductive loop. Note here https://dodger.home.xs4all.nl/tech.htm "Interface up to 16 track loops"

The systems management system is independent, and that is what was upgraded to in 2012 NetTrac.

Actually back in the late to mid 1980s using an Intel processor in an industrial application such as this was not the norm. Motorola based processors in VME form-factors was pretty common for control applications in railway and aerospace.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

http://www.translink.ca/-/media/Document...20_phase_1_project_list%20_june_2016.pdf

Interesting they may be installing infrastructure upgrades on the existing system (power, maintenance center) with this first phase to have the capacity east of Commercial. If it gets extended again to UBC from Arbutus as per the original plan, then would their be capability to do this again relatively cheaply? Or are their things they could do with this round to be ready for UBC too?

Since the Broadway-UBC extension will be all-new construction, it would make sense that it will have the power &tc needed for the projected number of trains running on the extension. This new construction would include all the new electric substations needed to power this new extension.

Most likely there will be 'just enough' power &tc to run a full load of trains between Arbutus and VCC, with capacity to add power &tc when the Arbutus to UBC segment is built later so the entire line from UBC to VCC can handle more trains running more often.


The new Millennium extension also included new electric substations (a dozen, I think) to power the new line, tunnel and stations.

[jsbertram]

That old BIV article reminded me that the Broadway Phase 3A planning report was supposed to be completed in June.


Any news on when it will be released?

[swimmer_spe]

With May being the latest the election can be held, and the Evergreen Extension opening in December, which extension do you think will be announced that would garner the most votes?

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

With May being the latest the election can be held, and the Evergreen Extension opening in December, which extension do you think will be announced that would garner the most votes?

UBC and Surrey will both magically have a couple billion in funding around May 1st. Just in time for the election.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Jebby

UBC and Surrey will both magically have a couple billion in funding around May 1st. Just in time for the election.

So long as it's actual money, and not just "We promise that we'll fund it if you vote for us!!" like the Conservatives last year.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

So long as it's actual money, and not just "We promise that we'll fund it if you vote for us!!" like the Conservatives last year.

So, an announcement will be made before the writ is dropped.

[dpogue]

Not sure if this updated graphic has been posted yet, from the TransLink website page about the Millennium Line Broadway extension project:

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by dpogue

Not sure if this updated graphic has been posted yet, from the TransLink website page about the Millennium Line Broadway extension project:

Where would they put a bus terminal for all the buses that still will continue to UBC?