Taxis and ridesharing in Ottawa

[Norman Bates]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Is there any argument to be made that driving a taxi should be a highly paid occupation?

On the one had I feel bad for the many immigrants who bought plates. That said I have taken a lot of airport taxis and pre-Uber pre-strike the drivers would even brag about how much money they can make. A couple of times a young guy in his 20s would tell me how he drives a few evenings a week and on weekends using his dad's plate and makes more than his 9-5 Government job or pays his rent working one day a week etc.

If you're not paying for your plate, car, or connectivity then you can do very well. Such as in the situation above borrowing all of the above from a parent.

But when you factor in the true cost, plus hours on the job, you'd be lucky to break minimum wage. Albeit a lot of the hours on the job are spent sitting around waiting for the next customer.

[Radster]

Originally Posted by acottawa

There is still going to be demand for taxis: I doubt uber is going to take government chits, taxis will still have a monopoly at taxi stands....

No taxi chits, however, the government does reimburse its employees who choose to take Uber in lieu of using taxi chits, as it does cost less. All that the public servants need to do is pay for the Uber ride themselves, and then claim the expense afterwards.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Radster

No taxi chits, however, the government does reimburse its employees who choose to take Uber in lieu of using taxi chits, as it does cost less. All that the public servants need to do is pay for the Uber ride themselves, and then claim the expense afterwards.

The Federal Government?

Where I work that would require either making a travel claim or seek petty cash, which requires a lot of paperwork compared to using a chit (and certainly wouldn't save any money).

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

Is there any argument to be made that driving a taxi should be a highly paid occupation?

On the one had I feel bad for the many immigrants who bought plates. That said I have taken a lot of airport taxis and pre-Uber pre-strike the drivers would even brag about how much money they can make. A couple of times a young guy in his 20s would tell me how he drives a few evenings a week and on weekends using his dad's plate and makes more than his 9-5 Government job or pays his rent working one day a week etc.

Has anyone made such an argument? Most folks, I think, would not begrudge the taxi drivers a living wage.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by Radster

No taxi chits, however, the government does reimburse its employees who choose to take Uber in lieu of using taxi chits, as it does cost less. All that the public servants need to do is pay for the Uber ride themselves, and then claim the expense afterwards.

Far more trouble that it would be worth, imo.

[lrt's friend]

Is there any argument to be made that driving a taxi should be a highly paid occupation?

There was a recent interview with an Ottawa Uber driver who said that taking into consideration of all the costs of being an Uber driver, and the discouragement of tipping, Uber drivers are making less than minimum wage. This follows a similar story originating from Seattle a few months ago.

There is a reason why fares are lower, and that is because drivers are being paid significantly less.

I am a firm believer that every job should pay a living wage, otherwise, what is our future? It is taxi drivers today, which other profession will be next?

Let's be honest here, this is all about Uber profits and not the drivers. They will be paid just enough that new drivers will be attracted to make a few extra bucks. But chances are, few Uber drivers will be able to make a living out of it. That has to be concern going forward.

Just like I recently heard that Walmart employees are deliberately not given enough hours to qualify for benefits no matter how many years of service they have. The cycle of poverty accelerates.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There was a recent interview with an Ottawa Uber driver who said that taking into consideration of all the costs of being an Uber driver, and the discouragement of tipping, Uber drivers are making less than minimum wage. This follows a similar story originating from Seattle a few months ago.

There is a reason why fares are lower, and that is because drivers are being paid significantly less.

I am a firm believer that every job should pay a living wage, otherwise, what is our future? It is taxi drivers today, which other profession will be next?

Let's be honest here, this is all about Uber profits and not the drivers. They will be paid just enough that new drivers will be attracted to make a few extra bucks. But chances are, few Uber drivers will be able to make a living out of it. That has to be concern going forward.

Just like I recently heard that Walmart employees are deliberately not given enough hours to qualify for benefits no matter how many years of service they have. The cycle of poverty accelerates.

And that may well have been without taking income tax and (for some) HST payments into account. I don't see how being an Uber driver in Ontario could be a lucrative option.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There was a recent interview with an Ottawa Uber driver who said that taking into consideration of all the costs of being an Uber driver, and the discouragement of tipping, Uber drivers are making less than minimum wage. This follows a similar story originating from Seattle a few months ago.

There is a reason why fares are lower, and that is because drivers are being paid significantly less.

I am a firm believer that every job should pay a living wage, otherwise, what is our future? It is taxi drivers today, which other profession will be next?

Let's be honest here, this is all about Uber profits and not the drivers. They will be paid just enough that new drivers will be attracted to make a few extra bucks. But chances are, few Uber drivers will be able to make a living out of it. That has to be concern going forward.

Just like I recently heard that Walmart employees are deliberately not given enough hours to qualify for benefits no matter how many years of service they have. The cycle of poverty accelerates.

Just to play devils advocate here... How many drivers buy a flashy new car and say, "I'm going to make a living being an Uber driver".... probably not a lot.

This just seems like a way for someone with a couple of hours to kill to bring in a few extra $$. There is apparently no shortage of drivers... and those drivers just happen to have reasonably nice cars, so while your point is well taken, I doubt this model is "accelerating poverty".

[acottawa]

I don't think uber is intended to be a job, it is a way to pick up some extra bucks on the side, like delivering newspapers or working an election booth.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Radster

No taxi chits, however, the government does reimburse its employees who choose to take Uber in lieu of using taxi chits, as it does cost less. All that the public servants need to do is pay for the Uber ride themselves, and then claim the expense afterwards.

It appears that there isn't a consistent policy on this across the service. I know someone at Transport who travels a lot, and she says they've been told not to use Uber.

That was before the city legalized it, so maybe things will change as of September.

[HighwayStar]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don't think uber is intended to be a job, it is a way to pick up some extra bucks on the side, like delivering newspapers or working an election booth.

And further to the point... if someone is an uber driver and happens to be bombing around town on a Saturday/Tuesday/whatever... just turn on the app as appropriate and pick up fares on the side.

Its not like uber drivers have to be sitting at the curb waiting for the next call to come in... one can just turn on and off the app when they want. Different kind of business model. Efficiency all round.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

Just to play devils advocate here... How many drivers buy a flashy new car and say, "I'm going to make a living being an Uber driver".... probably not a lot.

This just seems like a way for someone with a couple of hours to kill to bring in a few extra $$. There is apparently no shortage of drivers... and those drivers just happen to have reasonably nice cars, so while your point is well taken, I doubt this model is "accelerating poverty".

Let's face it this is an unskilled job, probably less skilled than working at McDonalds where you need basic math and computer skills and need to speak fluent English. Taxi drivers had a good run and were able to make a middle class "living wage" for awhile. As someone else pointed out this was mostly those that owned a plate though otherwise it was always a tough gig. A driver told me before this decision that they were reluctant to quit Coventry despite seeing their income drop because there was a waiting list to start driving and they would lose their spot.

All that said I don't think a lot of Uber drivers are doing it on the side. I have taken a lot of Ubers, some in Ottawa and more elsewhere and most seem to be professionals.

[Radster]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

It appears that there isn't a consistent policy on this across the service. I know someone at Transport who travels a lot, and she says they've been told not to use Uber.

That was before the city legalized it, so maybe things will change as of September.

I haven't tried using Uber in lieu of taxi chits, but my comment stems from reading this article last October:
http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/10/25/no-p...lic-servants-getting-reimbursed-for-uber

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Radster

I haven't tried using Uber in lieu of taxi chits, but my comment stems from reading this article last October:
http://www.ottawasun.com/2015/10/25/no-p...lic-servants-getting-reimbursed-for-uber

Reimbursement may be possible, but it would be hard to make the case that it is a better use of either the public servant's time or the government's resources to pay out of pocket, fill out a form, get approvals for the form, submit the form and wait for reimbursement, rather than use a chit that is bought in bulk and doesn't require additional paperwork.

Maybe someday the government will get an account with uber that will allow rides to be directly billed (although that would certainly lead to a s***storm of malfeasance). But in the meantime the vast majority of public servants will be taking taxis, which provides a fairly steady stream of business for the taxi industry that will likely continue for the foreseeable future.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by HighwayStar

And further to the point... if someone is an uber driver and happens to be bombing around town on a Saturday/Tuesday/whatever... just turn on the app as appropriate and pick up fares on the side.

Its not like uber drivers have to be sitting at the curb waiting for the next call to come in... one can just turn on and off the app when they want. Different kind of business model. Efficiency all round.

Any Uber driver i've asked about this says they use their Uber income to supplement other income made in their daily lives. Some use their Uber income to pay their insurance, some pay for school, some pay for groceries. Almost all the drivers i've had have had other full-time jobs besides driving for Uber. This is fine because, as you said, they can determine when and how and where they want to work. Uber's not forcing them to work a 9-5 or a 7-3 or anything.

Also Uber's offering two free rides to any new users that sign up this weekend.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There was a recent interview with an Ottawa Uber driver who said that taking into consideration of all the costs of being an Uber driver, and the discouragement of tipping, Uber drivers are making less than minimum wage.

Discouragement of tipping in person. You can set a tip percentage on your profile so it automatically takes that percentage and adds it to your base fare each trip. Mine's 15% and you can go as high as 25% (I think?).

[Catenary]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Any Uber driver i've asked about this says they use their Uber income to supplement other income made in their daily lives. Some use their Uber income to pay their insurance, some pay for school, some pay for groceries. Almost all the drivers i've had have had other full-time jobs besides driving for Uber. This is fine because, as you said, they can determine when and how and where they want to work. Uber's not forcing them to work a 9-5 or a 7-3 or anything.

Also Uber's offering two free rides to any new users that sign up this weekend.



Discouragement of tipping in person. You can set a tip percentage on your profile so it automatically takes that percentage and adds it to your base fare each trip. Mine's 15% and you can go as high as 25% (I think?).

The tipping in app isn't for UberX, only for Uber Taxi like in Toronto. UberX has a no-tip policy, digital or in person.

[rocketphish]

Originally Posted by acottawa

I don't think uber is intended to be a job, it is a way to pick up some extra bucks on the side, like delivering newspapers or working an election booth.

Exactly. You have to remember that Uber is yet another manifestation of the "sharing economy", whereby people who have something that they don't use all the time make it available to others for a fee. Airbnb, Parkatmyhouse, Streetbank, etc. all fall into this model. It's about getting more use from something that you just have sitting around doing nothing. Your car. Your condo. Your driveway. Your tools. By design these businesses are "part-time". Yes, some people try to do them full-time, and may or may not make a living from it, but that's not the point of it.

[rocketphish]

Ottawa taxi drivers launch $215M lawsuit against city

Matthew Pearson, Ottawa Citizen
Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: August 12, 2016 | Last Updated: August 12, 2016 8:46 PM EDT

Cabbies worried about the dwindling value of their plates are suing the City of Ottawa for $215 million, weeks before Uber becomes legal.

Members of Ottawa’s beleaguered taxi industry filed the class action lawsuit Friday, accusing the city of failing to properly enforce its own taxi bylaw after the ride-hailing company arrived here nearly two years ago.

The plaintiff is Metro Taxi Ltd., which carries on business as Capital Taxi, and holds a licence to operate and dispatch taxicabs. It is also a broker. Company co-owner Marc Andre Way is also named as a plaintiff. Way is the largest single plate holder in the city. As of 2015, he and his family owned 87 plates.

Thomas Conway, Way’s lawyer, said Friday the lawsuit was filed on behalf of about 755 plate owners, brokers or both.

(See the full lawsuit at the bottom of this story.)

Way himself could not be reached for comment. In an opinion piece published last March, Way wrote about the city’s obligation of “fairness to drivers.”

“The goal is to keep supply and demand (of licences) in balance so that drivers can afford to stay in business,” Way wrote.

In a press release sent Friday afternoon, Ottawa city clerk and solicitor Rick O’Connor said the lawsuit would be “vigorously defended.” He also said no other public comments would be made as the matter is now before the courts.

The statement of claim, which has not been tested in court, says the city owed a duty of care to the taxi industry, which required the city to take “reasonable steps” to maintain the integrity of the regulatory scheme.

It claims the city created a scheme for taxi services that, in order to function effectively, required investment from plate holders.

The scheme created and maintained the market value of the plates and, the statement of claim says, the city “actively and deliberately encouraged the growth in the market value” by permitting the sale of plates and capping the number issued.

The city directly benefitted from the market value of the plates, including through fees levied on the transfer of plates, the lawsuit says.

Yet when Uber came to town, “the City breached its standard of care by taking no steps to enforce the regulatory scheme against Uber and taking vastly inadequate steps to enforce the regulatory scheme against Uber’s drivers,” the statement of claim says.

It goes on to state that the failure of the city to enforce its own rules was an operational decision not based on economic, social or political factors, and did not result from a policy decision of the City made “in good faith.”

“The City’s refusal to enforce the regulatory scheme is not defensible, justifiable, or intelligible. The City’s refusal conferred an obvious advantage on Uber and its drivers,” the statement of claim says.

The lawsuit says amendments contained in the city’s updated taxi bylaw are unlawful and unreasonable because they didn’t provide plate owners with reasonable notice of the changes to the regulatory scheme, which the plaintiffs claim is inconsistent with previous changes to the rules.

The claim seeks a court order declaring that the city’s updated taxi bylaw, passed in April, is beyond its power and legal authority.

The bylaw created a new class of licence called private transportation company, which will essentially allow Uber to operate legally in Ottawa as of Sept. 30.

The plate holders are also seeking an order of restitution for fees collected under the taxi bylaw.

According to the statement of claim, Uber drivers operated taxis within the meaning of the city’s bylaw, while the company acted as broker, but neither obtained the necessary licences to do so.

The claim says class members asked the city to take “reasonable steps” to enforce its regulatory scheme, and notes the city prosecuted a “limited number of Uber’s drivers.”

“The City did not take any steps to enforce the regulatory scheme against Uber,” the lawsuit says. “Uber continued to operate its services in the City of Ottawa. The City knew that Uber would continue operating its services unless the City took steps to enforce the regulatory scheme against Uber or took meaningful and reasonable steps to enforce the regulatory scheme against Uber’s drivers.”

The lawsuit also claims the city’s updated taxi bylaw provides a number of advantages to Uber and its drivers not available to class members, including lower fees, the purchase or lease of plate and the installation of in-vehicle cameras.

KPMG, which was hired to review the city’s taxi bylaw last year, predicted plate owners would seek damages from the city if council established a new category for alternative services, like Uber. That prompted the city to get an opinion from its own legal consultants, but the 30-page review is confidential.

However, the city made one excerpt from the legal opinion public.

In the lawyers’ opinion, “The city would likely not be held liable for the economic losses suffered by existing holders of regulated taxicab plates and plate holder licenses should the value of those plates decline as a consequence of regulatory changes approved by city council and adopted through a bylaw which would affect the taxicab industry by, among others, relaxing the controlled entry into the vehicle-for-hire business in Ottawa.”

The city’s legal department also concluded the city is under no obligation to provide financial compensation for any loss in plate value.

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http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/ottawa-taxi-drivers-launch-215m-lawsuit-against-city

[rocketphish]

City won't delay Uber legalization because of massive taxi lawsuit

Jon Willing, Ottawa Citizen
Published on: August 15, 2016 | Last Updated: August 15, 2016 5:32 PM EDT

The city won’t delay making Uber legal, even though taxi plate owners are making a potentially precedent-setting claim that they’re owed millions because of a major change in municipal licensing.

“We’re proceeding full-steam ahead,” Mayor Jim Watson said Monday.

“We think the public certainly want choice when it comes to transportation in the City of Ottawa. The taxi industry has really had a monopoly for decades. I’m very comfortable with where we are legally and procedurally to move forward with alternative forms of transportation, like Uber and other ride-sharing companies, on a go-forward basis.”

Uber and any other alternative ride provider can operate legally in Ottawa starting Sept. 30 as long as they adhere to the new rules for “private transportation companies.”

Cabbies are worried about the impact to the value of their taxi plates. The city is opening up the regulations to more ride providers and the market value of a conventional licence plate is decreasing.

It has led to the $215-million lawsuit against the city filed Friday by Metro Taxi co-owner Marc Andre Way, who has the most taxi plates in the city. He is also the vice-president of Coventry Connections and the president of the Canadian Taxi Association.

Way and his lawyer say they won’t comment on the lawsuit outside of court.

The city believes it’s on solid legal footing and says it will fight the claim.

A judge has not heard the arguments on either side and it could be several months until that happens.

It’s believed to be the first lawsuit of its kind in terms of the types of taxi-related claims made against a municipality in Canada, and word is spreading to other cities.

Kristine Hubbard, the operations manager at Beck Taxi in Toronto, said word of the Ottawa lawsuit has reached the taxi industry in that city.

“I think it has got people talking,” Hubbard said. “People will be interested to see what happens.”

The lawsuit should be no surprise to the City of Ottawa, since its consultants brought up the potential of cabbies seeking compensation during the leadup to council’s decision to change the regulations last April. The city even received a legal opinion before bringing the recommendations to council.

The city collects $4,033 every time a taxi plate owner sells its owner status to another person and the fee usually increases with inflation. The city, however, doesn’t get a cut from the market price paid in the transfer of its own plates. It’s an old system that’s similar in other Canadian municipalities.

Values of taxi plates increased under the regulatory scheme because the city controls the number of plates based on population. Cabbies selling city-owned plates, which is allowed under the city’s rules, were collecting six-figure sums.

Judges have heard arguments about how much taxi plates are worth on the open market when deciding on family cases.

A 2010 case put the value of an airport plate at $210,000. Another judge in a divorce decision earlier this year put the value of a regular plate at $185,000 in 2009-2010, based on research and valuations.

The price for a new taxi plate from city hall is $545, plus the taxi driver licence fee.

There are 1,188 taxi plates in Ottawa and most owners are in possession of a single plate. The city is planning to increase the total number by four plates when the new regulations kick in.

Uber arrived in Ottawa in October 2014 and taxi plate owners have complained the market value of their plates has tanked.

Way’s class-action lawsuit is expected to include about 755 Ottawa taxi plate owners who want compensation from city hall, which means nearly everyone who currently has a plate could be involved in the claim.

The lawsuit also accuses the city of failing to enforce the taxi bylaw while Uber operates illegally in Ottawa.

However, bylaw officers ticket Uber drivers, even in this grey period when Uber is only weeks away from being legal.

According to city solicitor Rick O’Connor, 30 charges have been laid against Uber drivers for unlicensed taxi operations since the council decision April 13 and more charges are pending.

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http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news...lization-because-of-massive-taxi-lawsuit

[Jeremy Coe, C.E.T.]

Frankly the city(ies) have done it to themselves. The limiting of the taxi licenses have killed the industry and made it corrupt. In addition to that, the taxi drivers have no one to blame but themselves. The whole industry should have changed years ago, but much like many unions, they wanted status quo. I can't wait to see the whole corrupt industry collapse.