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  #16181  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2016, 5:46 PM
Private Dick Private Dick is offline
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Of course. I just mean this wasn't what it was sold to the community as when it got approval from the URA. The medical offices might be a small part of the overall plan, but it seems like a bit of a bait and switch.
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Bait and switch? No, no, no...

It's an "evolution of the concept"

And would you be surprised if the medical offices ended up just somehow being affiliated with UPMC??

Maybe the Hunt Armory Rink at UPMC Ice Pavilion?
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  #16182  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2016, 8:30 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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This is an aside, but a debate sprung up about this on the other place, and it's relevant to the interests of the subforum here, so I thought I'd throw it out there.

Do you guys think Pittsburgh could fit another 100,000 residents in without substantive upzoning? That is to say, could we fit that population through mainly infill of similar density in blighted areas and building multi-family where multi-family is allowed?

I would argue almost certainly not, but other people seem to disagree.
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  #16183  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2016, 8:53 PM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I would argue almost certainly not, but other people seem to disagree.
I'd say that is near the outer boundary of what is possible. For another 100,000 in population you are probably talking over 50,000 more in occupied housing units, which would put the City right about where it was in terms of peak housing units historically (we hit that mark with much less than peak population thanks to fewer people per household these days). New housing units are bigger on average today so that's a problem, but on the other hand we have a lot of industrial brownfields and such that provide more land we can now use for residential. But we probably would use fewer slopes. And so on.
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  #16184  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2016, 8:54 PM
MarkMyWords MarkMyWords is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
This is an aside, but a debate sprung up about this on the other place, and it's relevant to the interests of the subforum here, so I thought I'd throw it out there.

Do you guys think Pittsburgh could fit another 100,000 residents in without substantive upzoning? That is to say, could we fit that population through mainly infill of similar density in blighted areas and building multi-family where multi-family is allowed?

I would argue almost certainly not, but other people seem to disagree.
When you think that, as late as 1960, the population within the city limits was double what it is currently, I would think it would be easy to accommodate that many more people. And that would even be with maintaining a more "relaxed" density overall. But to avoid single family homes popping up everywhere and ruining the hillsides, we are talking about multi-family dwellings.

Which raises another question I have long had in my mind, but haven't really investigated - how does Pittsburgh compare with other cities when it comes to proportion of residents in multi-family housing? Or is there some kind of bias (economic, social, cultural, etc.) against folks living in multifamily housing? I've often wondered why there just hasn't been ANY attempt to build high or mid rise buildings on the north shore or other locations to take advantage of the views toward downtown. (And no - Trimont doesn't count!) Or is the superfluity of views from the various hills factor into that? Just wondering.
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  #16185  
Old Posted Apr 13, 2016, 9:46 PM
speagles84 speagles84 is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
This is an aside, but a debate sprung up about this on the other place, and it's relevant to the interests of the subforum here, so I thought I'd throw it out there.

Do you guys think Pittsburgh could fit another 100,000 residents in without substantive upzoning? That is to say, could we fit that population through mainly infill of similar density in blighted areas and building multi-family where multi-family is allowed?

I would argue almost certainly not, but other people seem to disagree.
And that is the opinion of those over there that do not live in the city or have any desire to.

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When you think that, as late as 1960, the population within the city limits was double what it is currently, I would think it would be easy to accommodate that many more people. And that would even be with maintaining a more "relaxed" density overall. But to avoid single family homes popping up everywhere and ruining the hillsides, we are talking about multi-family dwellings.

Which raises another question I have long had in my mind, but haven't really investigated - how does Pittsburgh compare with other cities when it comes to proportion of residents in multi-family housing? Or is there some kind of bias (economic, social, cultural, etc.) against folks living in multifamily housing? I've often wondered why there just hasn't been ANY attempt to build high or mid rise buildings on the north shore or other locations to take advantage of the views toward downtown. (And no - Trimont doesn't count!) Or is the superfluity of views from the various hills factor into that? Just wondering.
I've quite often wondered that myself. I've lived on Mount Washington for about a year now, and there is a large vacant piece of graded land next to the apartment building that houses Monteray Bay that looks to be prime for a larger apartment complex, but nothing has been built; (and obviously One Grandview was a bust... hopefully something could get started there as well).
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  #16186  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2016, 1:34 AM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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I'd say that is near the outer boundary of what is possible. For another 100,000 in population you are probably talking over 50,000 more in occupied housing units, which would put the City right about where it was in terms of peak housing units historically (we hit that mark with much less than peak population thanks to fewer people per household these days). New housing units are bigger on average today so that's a problem, but on the other hand we have a lot of industrial brownfields and such that provide more land we can now use for residential. But we probably would use fewer slopes. And so on.
I think it's doable with blight infill plus the redevelopment of brownfields (for example, fitting 20,000 people in the Strip District, which should be feasible). I don't think it's doable without the brownfields though.

In many ways, we have less developable space for residential than in 1950. First, we've seen the loss of some areas due to highway expansion. Secondly, while some brownfields can be repurposed, other large acreages have been snapped up by institutions (universities, hospitals, and stadiums) in prime areas, such that they will not be residential areas again in our lifetimes. Then, as you note, there's the factor that we don't build on slopes. The city still had greenfield land back in 1950 in portions of the city as well, but that's pretty much done except for that hilltop in Hays. Finally, from a density standpoint, the infill which has gone into formerly blighted neighborhoods leaves much to be desired, along with basically precluding somewhere like Crawford Roberts ever becoming higher density in our lifetimes.

On the flipside, there's many neighborhoods that, under current zoning, it just isn't realistic will ever grow in terms of number of housing units. My new(ish) home of Morningside is a good example. The neighborhood is 99% intact, and zoned for single-family attached or detached except for a few streets near Highland Park. There are plans for some senior apartments in the old Morningside elementary school, but the neighborhood is basically built out, meaning the population has nowhere to go but down. This is just one example though, but the same thing is largely true for any neighborhood which either was never particularly distressed, or which didn't have a substantial non-residential component.

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Originally Posted by MarkMyWords View Post
When you think that, as late as 1960, the population within the city limits was double what it is currently, I would think it would be easy to accommodate that many more people. And that would even be with maintaining a more "relaxed" density overall. But to avoid single family homes popping up everywhere and ruining the hillsides, we are talking about multi-family dwellings.
As BrianTH intimated, the vast majority of Pittsburgh's population decline was due to declining household size, not shrinkage in the number of households. I crunched the numbers a few years ago, and if we gained 110,000 people, we would have an equal number of households to the what the city had at its peak, despite still having a population which was more than 250,000 below peak. Of course, since modern households are smaller, they could theoretically fit on much less land. But still, if you wanted the city to get anywhere close to 670,000, you'd certainly need to demolish many of the single-family housing areas and replace them with apartment buildings.

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Which raises another question I have long had in my mind, but haven't really investigated - how does Pittsburgh compare with other cities when it comes to proportion of residents in multi-family housing? Or is there some kind of bias (economic, social, cultural, etc.) against folks living in multifamily housing? I've often wondered why there just hasn't been ANY attempt to build high or mid rise buildings on the north shore or other locations to take advantage of the views toward downtown. (And no - Trimont doesn't count!) Or is the superfluity of views from the various hills factor into that? Just wondering.
Pittsburgh has never been much of an apartment city. In the 19th century, as with Philly, the norm for the working class was to live in a modest rowhouse, or rent out a room if they were too poor for that.

The first real apartments built in Pittsburgh to any degree were built out around 1900-1910. They have nearly identical designs, and are most prominent in Oakland, but can also be found in Bloomfield and Highland Park. There was then a period of sustained and varied apartment building from the 20s to the 70s, which was almost entirely focused on North Oakland, Shadyside, and a few enclaves in Squirrel Hill South. I think it's fair to say the city is now in its third period of apartment building, although it's hard for me to pin the exact project which spearheaded this movement.

In terms of larger apartment buildings, my understanding is the economics just don't work right here. Prices per square foot are just too low for the rental market, to the point where it would be essentially impossible to build steel-framed residential high rise and make a profit. Rehabs of old buildings, of course, are much more feasible.
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  #16187  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2016, 2:42 AM
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Hotel could be part of project at former Saks site in Downtown Pittsburgh

http://www.post-gazette.com/business/dev...Downtown-Pittsburgh/stories/201604120192



A luxury lifestyle hotel could end up on top of the 600-space parking garage being built at the site of the former Saks Fifth Avenue department store on Smithfield Street, Downtown.

The 161-room hotel is a new wrinkle in the second phase of a development being proposed by Smithfield Oliver Partners, a partnership between Washington County-based Millcraft Investments and Downtown’s McKnight Realty Partners.

As originally planned, Smithfield Oliver had envisioned up to 100 residential units in a second phase to complement the garage and 30,000 square feet of street level retail space.

Under the latest proposal, the development team intends to build 62 market rate apartments in addition to the hotel. The residential units will range in size from 430-square-foot micros to 885-square-foot two bedrooms.

Pittsburgh Urban Redevelopment Authority board members are expected to vote Thursday on whether to accept the proposal and to enter into a contract with Smithfield Oliver Phase 2 Partners to sell the air rights above the garage for $2.2 million.
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  #16188  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2016, 3:05 AM
BrianTH BrianTH is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I think it's doable with blight infill plus the redevelopment of brownfields (for example, fitting 20,000 people in the Strip District, which should be feasible). I don't think it's doable without the brownfields though.
I think that is exactly right.
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  #16189  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2016, 3:09 AM
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A hotel there would be cool. I wonder if this changes their height plans at all.
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  #16190  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2016, 1:31 PM
Wiz Khalifa Wiz Khalifa is offline
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I think it's doable with blight infill plus the redevelopment of brownfields (for example, fitting 20,000 people in the Strip District, which should be feasible). I don't think it's doable without the brownfields though.
Land issues aside, the majority of those 100k better not be bringing a car with them or else traffic and parking issues will be the main stopping point.
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  #16191  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2016, 1:38 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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Land issues aside, the majority of those 100k better not be bringing a car with them or else traffic and parking issues will be the main stopping point.
If we ever get to a population increase of 100,000 in Pittsburgh, it's almost certainly going to be on a longer horizon than 20 years. Therefore most of these people will be moving here after self-driving cars become ubiquitous. So Pittsburgh (and all other U.S. cities) will be seeing falling rates of car ownership, along with falling demand for parking. So I'm not really worried our road capacity couldn't keep up with 100,000 more people.
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  #16192  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2016, 1:41 PM
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Land issues aside, the majority of those 100k better not be bringing a car with them or else traffic and parking issues will be the main stopping point.
That's a serious issue too. Self-driving cars might be the solution, but this would be yet another reason to look seriously at low-cost ways of adding brand new capacity to the transportation system, such as aerial gondolas.
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  #16193  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2016, 1:58 PM
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Therefore most of these people will be moving here after self-driving cars become ubiquitous. So Pittsburgh (and all other U.S. cities) will be seeing falling rates of car ownership, along with falling demand for parking. So I'm not really worried our road capacity couldn't keep up with 100,000 more people.
I agree self-driving cars (meaning cars that can legally drive almost anywhere with no human occupant) could do a lot to address the parking issue.

The peak road capacity issue could still be a problem, however. It is probably worth noting that back in the 1950s/60s era, only around 30% of the population was employed. Even with recent declines in the employment to population ratio, these days it is more like 45%. That's a combination of increased female participation, and fewer dependents (mainly fewer kids). And in fact, focus specifically on an urban mix including a lot of young adults with fewer or no dependents, and include lots of higher ed students too, and you could be looking at a much larger change.

So it depends a little on exactly what commuting looks like in the future, but I'd suggest that even with self-driving cars, if those cars are still mostly filled with just one, sometimes two, commuters at a time, we probably wouldn't have enough peak road capacity for all those vehicles in the city we are describing.

Of course self-driving technologies could be applied to buses and other "mass" transit vehicles, so that could help. But I do think unless telecommuting becomes a lot more dominant, we may still need to look at smart ways to add brand new capacity, assuming that sooner or late cities like Pittsburgh are approaching the conditions we are describing.
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  #16194  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2016, 2:24 PM
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And would you be surprised if the medical offices ended up just somehow being affiliated with UPMC??

Maybe the Hunt Armory Rink at UPMC Ice Pavilion?


Hockey & hospice under one roof!
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  #16195  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2016, 2:48 PM
eschaton eschaton is offline
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I agree self-driving cars (meaning cars that can legally drive almost anywhere with no human occupant) could do a lot to address the parking issue.

The peak road capacity issue could still be a problem, however. It is probably worth noting that back in the 1950s/60s era, only around 30% of the population was employed. Even with recent declines in the employment to population ratio, these days it is more like 45%. That's a combination of increased female participation, and fewer dependents (mainly fewer kids). And in fact, focus specifically on an urban mix including a lot of young adults with fewer or no dependents, and include lots of higher ed students too, and you could be looking at a much larger change.

So it depends a little on exactly what commuting looks like in the future, but I'd suggest that even with self-driving cars, if those cars are still mostly filled with just one, sometimes two, commuters at a time, we probably wouldn't have enough peak road capacity for all those vehicles in the city we are describing.

Of course self-driving technologies could be applied to buses and other "mass" transit vehicles, so that could help. But I do think unless telecommuting becomes a lot more dominant, we may still need to look at smart ways to add brand new capacity, assuming that sooner or late cities like Pittsburgh are approaching the conditions we are describing.
I have seen projections that self-driving cars should result in reduced traffic, even if the amount on the street is roughly similar to today. Self-driving cars will be able to use real-time network data, for example, to shift to the best roads. Rental services may start moving towards having lots of 1-2 seater "pods" which take up less road space (only order a larger car if you need it). And of course, eventually as the number of human-driven cars falls, things like stop signs and traffic signals could be eliminated totally.

There is no doubt that even in a self-driving future, there will still be a need for mass transit. In Pittsburgh in particular, individual self-driving vehicles would never be able to get enough people into Downtown and Oakland during rush hour. I expect transit in the future will be much more of a "spine" model than today. On one hand, routes with infrequent service will likely collapse totally. On the other hand, suburbanites who have destinations in regional job centers will finally have a solution to the "last mile" problem which drops them off at the rapid transit stop. So mass transit in the future will likely be smaller in terms of its scope, but could be as large or larger in terms of ridership.
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  #16196  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2016, 4:45 PM
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I have seen projections that self-driving cars should result in reduced traffic, even if the amount on the street is roughly similar to today. Self-driving cars will be able to use real-time network data, for example, to shift to the best roads. Rental services may start moving towards having lots of 1-2 seater "pods" which take up less road space (only order a larger car if you need it). And of course, eventually as the number of human-driven cars falls, things like stop signs and traffic signals could be eliminated totally.

There is no doubt that even in a self-driving future, there will still be a need for mass transit. In Pittsburgh in particular, individual self-driving vehicles would never be able to get enough people into Downtown and Oakland during rush hour. I expect transit in the future will be much more of a "spine" model than today. On one hand, routes with infrequent service will likely collapse totally. On the other hand, suburbanites who have destinations in regional job centers will finally have a solution to the "last mile" problem which drops them off at the rapid transit stop. So mass transit in the future will likely be smaller in terms of its scope, but could be as large or larger in terms of ridership.
Again I think that is all correct.

I'd just add there may be a blurring of the lines between transit and cars when you start talking about vehicles which are not individually owned but rather owned by a central entity, and which may be variable in size, and may also incorporate flexible ride-sharing. It still could be that the "club" model (ala Zipcar) works, but it could be more the "taxi" model (ala Uber) instead, and of course Uber is already rolling out variable vehicle selection and shared rides.

And ultimately I think there could be enough network efficiencies and such that you end up with a sort of natural monopoly situation, which can lead to either a public agency model, or a heavily-regulated (aka "utility") model.

Anyway, it is too early to tell on a lot of these details, but fundamentally I agree that driverless vehicles should be good for land use in urban areas, make more efficient use of urban streets, and in general should help promote more dense, walkable development in core urban areas. But we will likely still need other technologies to address things like insufficient peak capacity on main commuting routes.
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  #16197  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2016, 5:44 PM
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Have you guys seen the vehicles in the movie Minority Report? They are self driving personal transport pods. That movie has a lot of really great science ideas.
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  #16198  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2016, 8:34 PM
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Just heard on NpR that the URA just approved the restoration of the Produce Terminal.
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  #16199  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2016, 8:44 PM
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Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
This is an aside, but a debate sprung up about this on the other place, and it's relevant to the interests of the subforum here, so I thought I'd throw it out there.

Do you guys think Pittsburgh could fit another 100,000 residents in without substantive upzoning? That is to say, could we fit that population through mainly infill of similar density in blighted areas and building multi-family where multi-family is allowed?

I would argue almost certainly not, but other people seem to disagree.
I was just reading this article about how Singapore vowed to solve it's shanty/low income housing problem by building 50,000+ new units in 5 years between 1960 - 1965.
If political will is there Pittsburgh can build anything it wants.

http://www.citylab.com/housing/2015/03/how-singapore-fixed-its-affordable-housing-problem/388451/
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  #16200  
Old Posted Apr 14, 2016, 11:26 PM
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Just heard on NpR that the URA just approved the restoration of the Produce Terminal.
Trib article--new renderings?

http://triblive.com/news/adminpage/10308162-74/building-million-improvements





Not sure how accurate that is supposed to be, but the cut-through looks pretty awesome.
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