Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

Meanwhile Canada's taxes are 30.6% of GDP, lower than they've been since at least 1980, lower than any time in the last 35 years. You wouldn't know it from the rhetoric in the media or talking to your colleagues/neighbours...

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/canada/tax-revenue-percent-of-gdp-wb-data.html

http://www.oecd.org/ctp/consumption/revenue-statistics-and-consumption-tax-trends-2014-canada.pdf

I think that 30.6% statistic is really important to remember. Many people out there seem to think we are being taxed more than ever before.

I would like to know where things like MSP sit in that calculation though.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by ClaytonA

Just a reminder:

Broadway subway to UBC forecast 250,000 trips/day on its first day of operation.

10 lane GMT without tolls in 2045 forecast 115,000 trips/day.

How many trucks can ride SkyTrain per day?

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Jebby

How many trucks can ride SkyTrain per day?

42, but don't quote me.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

42, but don't quote me.

At least it didn't take you 7.5 million years to come up with that one.

[s211]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

At least it didn't take you 7.5 million years to come up with that one.

Let's build another one to make sure we understood what the original question emcompassed.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by s211

Let's build another one to make sure we understood what the original question emcompassed.

Don't bother - Vision'll tear it down and build a greenway on top of it before we ever find out.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Jebby

How many trucks can ride SkyTrain per day?

Humor aside, I know what you are getting at.

It is a bit of a fallacy for people to try and equate 1 transit boarding with 1 vehicle crossing a bridge. The economic impact of 1 boarding doesn't necessarily equal 1 vehicle crossing. In fact, they can be drastically different.

One guy on his way to work (and home which is 2 boardings) is going to make $120 for himself and contribute another $100 to the success of his company from his labor. 1 truck can be carrying tens of thousands of dollars worth of goods and materials that can contribute much more than that to the economy, in a single crossing.

So I agree, I don't think people can rattle off some stats and say because more people directly use something automatically means it is more important or cost effective.

Yes, the Broadway subway is critically needed. But comparing it to something that is less used is not proving anything directly. Less people drive on the Coquihalla, but you cannot dispute the huge economic impact it has for not only Vancouver but also on Kamloops and the Okanagan (which were always accessible via other highways). Almost no passengers ride on the CP and CN mainline East of Mission, but without it would Vancouver even exist in the first place?

[ClaytonA]

....

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by Jebby

How many trucks can ride SkyTrain per day?

Trucks are only a small percentage of traffic, usually around 10%.

Wouldn't it be better if instead of being stuck behind commuters, those commuters were instead using transit?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

Trucks are only a small percentage of traffic, usually around 10%.

Wouldn't it be better if instead of being stuck behind commuters, those commuters were instead using transit?

I agree with the logic behind this, but I should point out that the Broadway extension serves mainly Downtown, the West Side, and anywhere that already has Skytrain - as far as the drivers from/to Delta, Tsawwassen or Washington are concerned, they'd like the GMT replacement to come first. Both service different areas and different kinds of commuters, and both need to get built fast.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

I agree with the logic behind this, but I should point out that the Broadway extension serves mainly Downtown, the West Side, and anywhere that already has Skytrain - as far as the drivers from/to Delta, Tsawwassen or Washington are concerned, they'd like the GMT replacement to come first. Both service different areas and different kinds of commuters, and both need to get built fast.

The bolded part means Richmond, Burnaby, New Westminster, Surrey, and shortly Coquitlam and Port Moody. There have been ample studies shown that people using the Broadway corridor come from across the Lower Mainland.

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

The bolded part means Richmond, Burnaby, New Westminster, Surrey, and shortly Coquitlam and Port Moody. There have been ample studies shown that people using the Broadway corridor come from across the Lower Mainland.

Absolutely, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Broadway M-Line extension will relieve traffic at the GMT (which was my original point).

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

Absolutely, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the Broadway M-Line extension will relieve traffic at the GMT (which was my original point).

True, but I think the original point was around where the best use of limited capital dollars should be. If you consider a line to UBC and the GMT to be roughly of equal cost ($3.5B), where is that money best spent to achieve the highest ROI?

[Migrant_Coconut]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

True, but I think the original point was around where the best use of limited capital dollars should be. If you consider a line to UBC and the GMT to be roughly of equal cost ($3.5B), where is that money best spent to achieve the highest ROI?

That is an excellent question. It's probably going to boil down to whichever special interest group yells loudest - relieve a lot of white collar commuter traffic downtown, or some blue collar traffic in the suburbs?

Personally, I'd rather see the M-Line get built first, but that's because I live near there; somebody driving in from Tsawwassen or Seattle might feel differently.

[Large Cat]

Originally Posted by Migrant_Coconut

That is an excellent question. It's probably going to boil down to whichever special interest group yells loudest - relieve a lot of white collar commuter traffic downtown, or some blue collar traffic in the suburbs?

Personally, I'd rather see the M-Line get built first, but that's because I live near there; somebody driving in from Tsawwassen or Seattle might feel differently.

Transit users in Metro Vancouver are in no way predominantly white collar. As I've asked before, how many suits do you actually see on the Skytrain, even during weekday rush hours to downtown? I am sure white collar workers account for less than 5% of ridership, even on weekdays. The much larger percentages are to be found in: students, minimum-wage or non-office employees, seniors, disabled, and other transit-choosing adults who are going to work/friends/errands/events. I don't even know where this stereotype of white-collar transit ridership comes from...New York? Even there it would be a gross misrepresentation.

On top of that, the blue-collar/white-collar juxtaposition is really an incomplete spectrum, and the implication that blue collar workers are somehow less well off than the rest of society (and haven't been reaping as many benefits from tax dollars as apparently white collar urbanites) is totally false. First of all, blue collar workers in Canada are usually unionized and make VERY decent wages. This means among other things that they can afford to buy two cars in the first place, if they want to. But the ones serving coffee to them (and to white collar workers too) and selling them food/electronics/coffee/clothes make between minimum wage and $15 an hour with minimal benefits, if they are lucky, and can't even afford one car, much less their student loans or the costs of their children's education. These people in the tertiary/service industry don't even attain to the status or identity of "blue collar", but they are often the largest demographic filling up buses and the very demographic that needs to catch a break. White collar workers (as few of them as there honestly are here, even downtown) and traditional blue collar workers both have it really good in comparison. If bus drivers (who mostly consider themselves blue collar) making $31 an hour go on strike so that they can make $33 an hour, service industry folks (and anyone without the money/ability to drive) are the ones that get screwed.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Large Cat

Transit users in Metro Vancouver are in no way predominantly white collar. As I've asked before, how many suits do you actually see on the Skytrain, even during weekday rush hours to downtown? I am sure white collar workers account for less than 5% of ridership, even on weekdays. The much larger percentages are to be found in: students, minimum-wage or non-office employees, seniors, disabled, and other transit-choosing adults who are going to work/friends/errands/events. I don't even know where this stereotype of white-collar transit ridership comes from...New York? Even there it would be a gross misrepresentation.

I think you are way out in left field.

I'm sorry, but transit doesn't experience crush loads into downtown between 7 and 9am, where every single train is full to the seams because seniors are going to the library and disabled people are going someplace to 'hang. All those thousands of people trudging up the escalators at Burrard aren't on their way to work in a cellphone kiosk.

Most retail doesn't even open until 10am, and the early morning coffee shop shifts start at 5am. Since there aren't many sawmills left on the shores of False Creek, almost all those people heading downtown on the Skytrain are on their way to an office.

And yes, I do see suits on Skytrain frequently, but the thing you need to remember is people in Vancouver HATE. SUITS. The typical office attire anywhere I've worked has been shorts and tshirts.

Whenever I have a job interview in an office downtown, I always wear a suit. Not once have I been interviewed by a guy in a suit (except 1 headhunter and that wasn't for a specific position). If anything, the dresscodes have reversed and it's frontline retail and customer service who dress in business attire and office employees wear 5 days worth of Casual Fridays.

As they say, you can't judge a book by its cover, and that is especially true in Vancouver.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Large Cat

Transit users in Metro Vancouver are in no way predominantly white collar. As I've asked before, how many suits do you actually see on the Skytrain, even during weekday rush hours to downtown?

I agree with BCPhil on this one. They may not all be wearing suits, but the huge waves of people disembarking the Skytrain in the morning rush hour at Granville, Burrard and Waterfront sure look more like white collar workers than blue collar ones to me.

Now if you're going to argue "executives" then I might be on board. But "white collar"? Nope.

[Migrant_Coconut]

I concede that I might have oversimplified, but you can't deny that the funding will go to whoever yells the loudest.

Vancouverites: Traffic's a nightmare here! We get first priority!
South of Fraser: Traffic's a nightmare here too! We get first priority!
UBC/SFU students: We're the future! We get first priority!
Truckers: We're the people bringing in all your overpriced lattes! We get first priority!
Delta Council: Vancouver always goes first, it's our turn! We get first priority!
Vision: Why are you trying to drive from Delta and the States anyway? You should bike your way into our city! We get first priority!


Besides, it's a moot point - since our Premier is still trying to spite us for voting her out of her own riding, the GMT is going first. "Chris Christie" Clark seems more and more appropriate...

[whatnext]

Traffic bottlenecks in the 'burbs tend to be caused by volume overwhelming the infrastructure. Traffic bottlenecks in the City of Vancouver tend to be city-caused (ie using 2 of Howe Street's 4 lanes for parking) or construction caused.

Transit money spent in the burbs would be a better bang for the buck, as it will reduce long vehicle trips.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

And yes, I do see suits on Skytrain frequently, but the thing you need to remember is people in Vancouver HATE. SUITS. The typical office attire anywhere I've worked has been shorts and tshirts.

Whenever I have a job interview in an office downtown, I always wear a suit. Not once have I been interviewed by a guy in a suit (except 1 headhunter and that wasn't for a specific position). If anything, the dresscodes have reversed and it's frontline retail and customer service who dress in business attire and office employees wear 5 days worth of Casual Fridays.

As they say, you can't judge a book by its cover, and that is especially true in Vancouver.

Agreed.

Over the past 20 years at our downtown law firm, the dress code has changed significantly.
It's only the articling students and very young associates who "need to impress" that dress up.

All the older guys only wear suits when they have a face to face meeting with a client - which is increasingly rare these days.

Instead of a suit, you'd still wear dress pants and dress shoes - but you could wear sportcoat, polo shirt, etc.
In winter, a common identifier as an "office worker" (finance, law, etc.) would be a trench coat (not what's under it).

As for tech workers (such as the office space above Nordstrom) - they're really casual.