PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

Originally Posted by eschaton

I'm sure that the rise of other business districts (particularly Lawrenceville) has played somewhat of a role. Unfortunately transit access to the South Side to the East End isn't very good - particularly in the western portion of the neighborhood (west of 18th). Suburbanites won't come to the city at all in large numbers unless there is ample parking (not that the City should cater to them, because doing so would rip the heart of of the business district).

Originally Posted by dfiler

It would take more to convince me that parking restrictions are the cause of an increased vacancy rate.

Rather, it seems more likely that Carson street is no longer the only popular place to go out on the town. It used to have the majority of bars and restaurants that rose above the neighborhood hole in the wall level. That is no longer the case. Foodie restaurants and destination bars have popped up everywhere.

I can't remember the last time a friend was excited to go to a place on the south side. That's not meant as an insult or criticism of the neighborhood. Just observing that the buzz has moved elsewhere.

Edit: I was interested in the topic and did some more reading. I have changed my mind and do agree it is hurting businesses.
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2...uth-Side-businesses/stories/201603170004

Although, it does seem hard to determine just how big the impact is. Other neighborhoods have taken off and are obviously taking customers who would otherwise have gone to the southside.

Lawrenceville/East End revitalization as the new hotspots in the city could definitely also be playing a factor in it... which to me is not a great sign for the city overall. In most larger cities that I'm familiar with, hotspots rise and fall, but generally once they become a popular location for new businesses, they at least remain solid districts once their time in the spotlight fades, with rents/values plateauing to a level that is then maintained. But maybe Pittsburgh doesn't yet have the city population rebound to fully support multiple nightlife area conglomerations.

And really... Carson Street around 5+ years ago was almost getting Bourbon Street-ish in the summertime with the number of drinking establishments stretching for an impressive length. I don't think that dense mass of bars was sustainable, and I think we're seeing the effects of that. Then add the new parking rules in...

Originally Posted by GeneW

I think that Carson Street is a bit of a victim of its own success. The bar scene is so big and notorious now that I think that a lot of people avoid that area in the evenings for fear of having to deal with hordes of drunken young adults.

That perception probably is a factor, but the bar scene there has significantly been lessened now. It's really striking to see the number of vacant former bars in comparison to around 5 years ago.

There has long been turnover on Carson with one bar closing and a new one popping up in its space the very next day it seemed. But now, some have been vacant for a year.

Originally Posted by Austinlee

So at some point in the future there will be a lot of.... Vapancies on East Carson?

(•_•)
( •_•)>⌐■-■
(⌐■_■)

Wow... vapancies. Genius at work!

I'm not trying to make this thread all about the southside or anything, but business districts in transition are interesting to me.

Speaking of Carson St. bar scene news. Sounds like the new incarnation will provide some life to the area:

http://www.post-gazette.com/life/opening...ava-Lounge-to-close/stories/201604090136

South Side's Lava Lounge to close

April 9, 2016 9:09 AM
Dan Gigler / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

South Side music and counterculture institution the Lava Lounge will close at month's end, per a post on the establishment's Facebook page Friday.

"The Lava Lounge will be closing April 30, 2016. Thank You for 20 years! It was a tough decision but it was time for a change. We will be reopening late May as Monster. We are partnering with David Stanton, owner of gaylifetelevision.com to open a LGBTQ-Friendly establishment.

"The interior will mainly be retained but with some minor changes. (We are not demolishing the place) Stay tuned for more details and Grand Closing parties that we are planning."

The post was signed by co-owners, Steve Zumoff and Scott Kramer.

With its Flintstones-meets-P-Funk vibe, the venue was an integral part of the South Side's revival in the 1990's. Performance artist Frankie Capri was a regular bill, as was jazz singer Phat Man Dee.

[Austinlee]

Originally Posted by Perch

I'm not trying to make this thread all about the southside or anything, but business districts in transition are interesting to me.

Speaking of Carson St. bar scene news. Sounds like the new incarnation will provide some life to the area:

http://www.post-gazette.com/life/opening...ava-Lounge-to-close/stories/201604090136

South Side's Lava Lounge to close

April 9, 2016 9:09 AM
Dan Gigler / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

South Side music and counterculture institution the Lava Lounge will close at month's end, per a post on the establishment's Facebook page Friday.

"The Lava Lounge will be closing April 30, 2016. Thank You for 20 years! It was a tough decision but it was time for a change. We will be reopening late May as Monster. We are partnering with David Stanton, owner of gaylifetelevision.com to open a LGBTQ-Friendly establishment.

"The interior will mainly be retained but with some minor changes. (We are not demolishing the place) Stay tuned for more details and Grand Closing parties that we are planning."

The post was signed by co-owners, Steve Zumoff and Scott Kramer.

With its Flintstones-meets-P-Funk vibe, the venue was an integral part of the South Side's revival in the 1990's. Performance artist Frankie Capri was a regular bill, as was jazz singer Phat Man Dee.

Wow! One of the most unique places. I hope the new evolution is as good.

[dfiler]

Originally Posted by Perch

Lawrenceville/East End revitalization as the new hotspots in the city could definitely also be playing a factor in it... which to me is not a great sign for the city overall. In most larger cities that I'm familiar with, hotspots rise and fall, but generally once they become a popular location for new businesses, they at least remain solid districts once their time in the spotlight fades, with rents/values plateauing to a level that is then maintained. But maybe Pittsburgh doesn't yet have the city population rebound to fully support multiple nightlife area conglomerations.

And really... Carson Street around 5+ years ago was almost getting Bourbon Street-ish in the summertime with the number of drinking establishments stretching for an impressive length. I don't think that dense mass of bars was sustainable, and I think we're seeing the effects of that. Then add the new parking rules in...



That perception probably is a factor, but the bar scene there has significantly been lessened now. It's really striking to see the number of vacant former bars in comparison to around 5 years ago.

There has long been turnover on Carson with one bar closing and a new one popping up in its space the very next day it seemed. But now, some have been vacant for a year.

I too think that Carson street had too many bars. It's not that bars are bad but rather the density caused problems. The neighborhood would be better off with a more balanced mix of daytime and nighttime businesses.

If the vacancy rate remains high that would be disturbing. (Actually, I don't have numbers and am just working on an assumption that the vacancy rate is high.) But if it is just transitory as the neighborhood moves away from it's brief period as Pittsburgh's Bourbon street, it isn't troubling at all. I would prefer to see people drinking in their local neighborhoods rather than driving to a single centralized place and then DUIing home.

[ginbear]

Long time lurker here, also SS resident.

The major concern is that the daytime businesses are emptying out far faster than the bars, seemingly in no small part due to parking (which is ample, yet restricted in the daytime here.) The bars tend to be pretty high profile on the street, but in the end you are talking about 6-7 empty bars, the same or more non-bar storefronts, and countless offices through the neighborhood. No one down here is too troubled by the number of bars going down, but parking has made running many daytime business models simply non-viable in the neighborhood - the businesses one would want to transition to are disappearing faster than the ones we should be transitioning from, and that is VERY alarming.

[AFW523]

Interesting...

Would like to see a rendering.

[daviderik]

Originally Posted by AFW523

Interesting...

Would like to see a rendering.

McCaffery's Produce Terminal proposal also includes improvements along Smallman and 21st streets to make them more pedestrian and bicycle friendly, Acklin said. Such work, expected to cost another $7 million, wasn't included in previous proposals, he said. It could feature a plaza in front of St. Stanislaus Church on Smallman that Acklin compared to Market Square.

I like that bit

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by Austinlee

Wow! One of the most unique places. I hope the new evolution is as good.

I was there for my best friend's 21st birthday 11 years ago. It was a rather unique place. What I remember was doing the robot after about 3 cocktails.

If the issue truly is with the parking, I hope they get it straightened out soon. That neighborhood became something neat and interesting when the mills closed down. It would be nice to see some balance of restaurants, bars, and offices as well as retail along Carson Street.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by ginbear

Long time lurker here, also SS resident.

The major concern is that the daytime businesses are emptying out far faster than the bars, seemingly in no small part due to parking (which is ample, yet restricted in the daytime here.) The bars tend to be pretty high profile on the street, but in the end you are talking about 6-7 empty bars, the same or more non-bar storefronts, and countless offices through the neighborhood. No one down here is too troubled by the number of bars going down, but parking has made running many daytime business models simply non-viable in the neighborhood - the businesses one would want to transition to are disappearing faster than the ones we should be transitioning from, and that is VERY alarming.

Can you clarify? What exactly is the parking problem you're dealing with?

[BrianTH]

Nice to see the Produce Terminal moving forward again, hopefully for real this time.

A plaza in front of the church is an idea we have been kicking around for a long time on these Pittsburgh discussion boards. That could really be great if done well, creating an anchor space for the Strip, helping to tie together Penn and the Terminal, and maybe pushing along local re-development: there are some large properties north/east of the church that would be great to fill in, and I'd also like to see some renovations of the old industrial buildings along Smallman across from the Produce Terminal.

[AFW523]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

and I'd also like to see some renovations of the old industrial buildings along Smallman across from the Produce Terminal.

They would make incredible apartments if done right.

[TBone7281]

http://pittsburgh.cbslocal.com/2016/04/1...ces-for-strip-district-produce-terminal/

This is basically the PG's take on the Produce Terminal.

The main thing I noticed in here that I didn't pick up in the other article is that

The city is hoping to have an outdoor public market at the downtown end of the terminal.

There would also be pedestrian only (no vehicle) walkways introduced into the building at 17th, 18th, and 20th Streets.

Going from 118 to only 18 apartments seems like a big change, but I guess that depends on how they are going to leverage them. (It sounds like these new apartments would be a fair amount larger.)

[dfiler]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

Can you clarify? What exactly is the parking problem you're dealing with?

I think he's referring to decreased parking for customers on side streets now that much of the area is permit parking.

There's a map in this article:
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2...uth-Side-businesses/stories/201603170004

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by AFW523

They would make incredible apartments if done right.

Indeed, and cool offices.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by TBone7281

Going from 118 to only 18 apartments seems like a big change, but I guess that depends on how they are going to leverage them. (It sounds like these new apartments would be a fair amount larger.)

That is indeed a big change, but as long as there is enough office/apartment combined to support retail (I'd be concerned if it was mostly or all retail), that is OK with me.

By the way, I like the idea of an outdoor public market. And that is an excuse for me to once again post some pictures of Piazza delle Erbe in Verona, which is my model for the possible public space(s) along Smallman.

Smallman:



Piazza delle Erbe:



In outdoor market mode:





The narrowness of the space, even including a street, is very similar to Smallman--roughly speaking it mostly varies between about 120 and 70 feet in width between the buildings, and I think Smallman is consistently around 110:



Note that typical of European piazzas, and our own Market Square, it is mostly just a simple hardscaping.

[Wiz Khalifa]

Originally Posted by dfiler

I think he's referring to decreased parking for customers on side streets now that much of the area is permit parking.

There's a map in this article:
http://www.post-gazette.com/local/city/2...uth-Side-businesses/stories/201603170004

The issue is entirely with the time period that the permit parking is in effect. The fact that that it runs during the day time and not overnight is absolutely idiotic and counterproductive to the entire purpose of putting in permit parking in the first place. The stupidity of this decision really can not be overstated.

If employees of daytime businesses can't park anywhere, the businesses WILL eventually move somewhere that doesn't have moronic parking rules. This is happening in the Southside right now, a mass exodus is taking place. People need to be fired yesterday for this and the time of enforcement needs to be changed immediately before more permanent damage is done to this once thriving neighborhood.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Wiz Khalifa

The issue is entirely with the time period that the permit parking is in effect. The fact that that it runs during the day time and not overnight is absolutely idiotic and counterproductive to the entire purpose of putting in permit parking in the first place. The stupidity of this decision really can not be overstated.

It's worth noting Lawrenceville may be heading down the same path. Currently, the only permit parking zones are in Central Lawrenceville, south of Butler to Penn Avenue. But there are plans afoot to have Central Lawrenceville south of Butler (towards the river) become its own permit zone. At times in the past there have been moves to make Upper Lawrenceville into a permit zone as well, but AFAIK this has been defeated for now.

[Austinlee]

Verona, Italy needs an aerial gondola.

[photoLith]

Sorry, but the Strip isnt ever going to be like those ultra dense historic Italian cities. Theres a major road for one that goes through it and I very much doubt they would ever close that down.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by photoLith

Sorry, but the Strip isnt ever going to be like those ultra dense historic Italian cities. Theres a major road for one that goes through it and I very much doubt they would ever close that down.

Piazza delle Erbe actually has a two-lane road going through it, plus a parking/bus-lane (the dark pavement in the bottom picture on the left side). In fact one of the main points of that comparison is that in a space even narrower than the space in front of St. Stanislaus, you can accommodate a road and still leave plenty of room for a cool piazza.

In any event, this appears to be an actual plan now, so perhaps you won't have to take my word on it for much longer.