Alive in Jo'burg - South Africa's largest city

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Great thread. I only spent a couple of days in Joburg but I was surprised by how much I liked it. It has great energy. And like you said, the situation is a lot more complex than you hear about in the media. Anyone who dismisses Joburg doesn't know what they're talking about. This is going to be one of the world's great cities in the future.

Your thoughts on Cape Town echoed mine – lovely city, much "easier" than Joburg, but also kind of parochial and noticeably more segregated.

Exactly, right? My friend who I travelled with was scared of Joburg and excited for Cape Town but I insisted. Now he is asking me why we didn't spend more time in Joburg.

I really want to visit again in a few years to see where the city is at.

[McBane]

Great thread, loved the commentary and looking forward to seeing Cape Town.

I've never been but obviously the crime is a huge thing. I don't want to dispute the "it's not that bad" chirping. But over the years, I've met many people from SA - all of whom moved out due to crime. A good number of whom were victims of violent crimes (robbed at gun point, things like that).

My African dream vacation is Tanzania, so this thread is probably as close as I'll get. Thank you for sharing.

[kool maudit]

This was a really great tour, thank you for posting your photos and thoughts.

I have been curious about this place for years.

[Crawford]

Great thread.

Based on your pics. looks and feels like basically every big Latin American city. Overwhelming security apparatus, huge racial socioeconomic disparities, interesting but somewhat decayed CBD (usually stuck in the 1980's), great cheap food and drink, colorful streetscapes, friendly people, bizarre outdated pop culture references, horrible traffic.

[destroycreate]

Originally Posted by Kilgore Trout

Great thread. I only spent a couple of days in Joburg but I was surprised by how much I liked it. It has great energy. And like you said, the situation is a lot more complex than you hear about in the media. Anyone who dismisses Joburg doesn't know what they're talking about. This is going to be one of the world's great cities in the future.

Your thoughts on Cape Town echoed mine – lovely city, much "easier" than Joburg, but also kind of parochial and noticeably more segregated.



As niwell pointed out, Joburg's violent crime rates are not much different from some American cities. If you're willing to visit New Orleans or Chicago there's no reason you should avoid Joburg. People aren't cowering in fear and the city is very lively. That goes for the rest of South Africa, which is a fascinating country. As much as crime, corruption and inequality are problems, it's a place with a lot of potential. Not to mention delicious food.

Difference being is that most American cities have crime relegated to really bad, often isolated ghettos. SA crime seems to be basically everywhere, in particular the CBD areas. I'd still feel 100x safer in the French Quarter than anywhere shown in the pics here.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by destroycreate

Difference being is that most American cities have crime relegated to really bad, often isolated ghettos. SA crime seems to be basically everywhere, in particular the CBD areas. I'd still feel 100x safer in the French Quarter than anywhere shown in the pics here.

JoBurg crime, if we can believe the figures, and if they're apples-to-apples comparable (both big ifs) has comparable crime to the worst American cities across the entire metro.

So JoBurg is probably a lot more dangerous than any U.S. city. Again, this is all speculative, because I doubt we could really do a solid comparison. But if JoBurg crime follows U.S. patterns, then if the metro area is as dangerous as a Detroit or NOLA, then the poor urban core must be many times more dangerous than a Detroit or NOLA (because high crime city propers are relatively small portions of their metros).

But, in any case, I would visit JoBurg, and probably explore these neighborhoods, though would take reasonable caution. The chances of something happening are still probably pretty slim, especially if you're clearly a visitor.

[niwell]

Thanks again everyone - appreciate the comments. I'd been very interested in SA culture for a long time before going and I feel like the trip makes me want to go back even more.

Originally Posted by destroycreate

Difference being is that most American cities have crime relegated to really bad, often isolated ghettos. SA crime seems to be basically everywhere, in particular the CBD areas. I'd still feel 100x safer in the French Quarter than anywhere shown in the pics here.

Interestingly enough the French Quarter was the only place in New Orleans I almost had an issue. It was the northern part of it though, at a bar that I only went in because I was frustrated about a flat bike tire - and it seemed to be white supremacists. I'd say Parkhurst in Joburg is safer than Bywater in NOLA, which is an area that I love.

In Cape Town the CBD is the safest area interestingly enough. I think it's similar in Durban. Joburg is the odd one out - probably because the CBD is massive.

Originally Posted by Crawford

Based on your pics. looks and feels like basically every big Latin American city. Overwhelming security apparatus, huge racial socioeconomic disparities, interesting but somewhat decayed CBD (usually stuck in the 1980's), great cheap food and drink, colorful streetscapes, friendly people, bizarre outdated pop culture references, horrible traffic.

Yeah that sounds about right! I'm not sure if you can add infrastructure that has all the pretences of being fully modern but just not. quite. there. And traffic lights out, constantly. Gauteng province has an issue with this due to cable theft that apparently the Western Cape does not, somehow.


Adding on to my response to Kilgore above RE Cape Town vs Joburg. In CT I went to a ton of great restaurants and bars, but often I felt like it was really just the same thing that I go to in Toronto. Not that it's a bad thing at all because I enjoyed them a lot. But sometimes the only black people you see are servers and you realize that's a bit weird. After CT on our last night we stayed in Braamfontein and the crowd was very mixed and just felt more like an accurate representation of what a modern South Africa should be. Earlier in the trip we were at a great bar in Braam (Great Dane) and at one point realized we were about 2 of 5 white people in the only place but it wasn't an issue. Made friends with a gay guy originally from a village in the country who currently lives in an area we "probably shouldn't go to" (Berea). He walked home though I think, about 30 mins walk.

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Crawford

JoBurg crime, if we can believe the figures, and if they're apples-to-apples comparable (both big ifs) has comparable crime to the worst American cities across the entire metro.

So JoBurg is probably a lot more dangerous than any U.S. city. Again, this is all speculative, because I doubt we could really do a solid comparison. But if JoBurg crime follows U.S. patterns, then if the metro area is as dangerous as a Detroit or NOLA, then the poor urban core must be many times more dangerous than a Detroit or NOLA (because high crime city propers are relatively small portions of their metros).

But, in any case, I would visit JoBurg, and probably explore these neighborhoods, though would take reasonable caution. The chances of something happening are still probably pretty slim, especially if you're clearly a visitor.

I'd agree with that analysis completely. The crime is definitely worse than most American metros. But it is also concentrated in certain areas. The CBD and Townships, mostly. The former is heavily policed in areas now and getting a lot better. With the exception of Soweto I don't think the same is true for the Townships. I wouldn't go to Tembisa unless I had to.

As with many place too, violent crime is usually targeted. The reason Cape Town has a horrific murder rate is gang warfare. You don't see that in the central city at all. In Joburg crime is most likely to be getting your phone stolen after flashing it in a bad area. You are more at risk for worse things but it's unlikely it will happen.

Originally Posted by McBane

Great thread, loved the commentary and looking forward to seeing Cape Town.

I've never been but obviously the crime is a huge thing. I don't want to dispute the "it's not that bad" chirping. But over the years, I've met many people from SA - all of whom moved out due to crime. A good number of whom were victims of violent crimes (robbed at gun point, things like that).

Yeah I know a lot of former South Africans in Canada who moved for the same reason. It's hard to deny it's a thing, but keep in mind that crime was FAR worse during the immediate post-apartheid era when most people left. We are talking twice as bad. Some of the areas in my photo tour were straight up a no-go zone doing those years, even for the police.

[The-New-Tony-Detroit]

Amazing commentary to match the interesting photo-story. Thanks!

[big T]

best thread in a long while. thanks!

[The ATX]

Thanks for this. I've never spent as much time looking at a photo thread as I did with this one.

[Centropolis]

i found the new orleans comparisons intriguing, and attractive to me i think. i suppose theres a funny connective thread as i have found parts of new orleans to resemble toronto.

Originally Posted by niwell

Interestingly enough the French Quarter was the only place in New Orleans I almost had an issue. It was the northern part of it though, at a bar that I only went in because I was frustrated about a flat bike tire - and it seemed to be white supremacists. I'd say Parkhurst in Joburg is safer than Bywater in NOLA, which is an area that I love.

i had a near-miss in bywater a few years ago but went back for a wedding later and now its my favorite part of new orleans.

my fiancee suggested south africa for our honeymoon, and she has family in zimbabwe and has been to africa and i have not. weirdly, i was the one who poo-poo'd it because i was afraid we (meaning she) would have a bad experience but now i've changed my tune. the only problem is a long flight after a wedding.

[plinko]

Really amazing thread and commentary. I'm trying to remember a Jo'burg thread on here...ever and can't recall one (Cape Town I know we've seen).

Where are the pics from the safari? You should add those here as well.

[softee]

Highly informative tour tour of a fascinating city!

[dabcom]

Colorful city!

[itom 987]

Superb thread niwell!

[niwell]

Originally Posted by Centropolis

i found the new orleans comparisons intriguing, and attractive to me i think. i suppose theres a funny connective thread as i have found parts of new orleans to resemble toronto.


i had a near-miss in bywater a few years ago but went back for a wedding later and now its my favorite part of new orleans.

my fiancee suggested south africa for our honeymoon, and she has family in zimbabwe and has been to africa and i have not. weirdly, i was the one who poo-poo'd it because i was afraid we (meaning she) would have a bad experience but now i've changed my tune. the only problem is a long flight after a wedding.

It's weird - NOLA and Jozi have very little in common on the surface. One is a hilly, sprawling metropolis with no water sources and the other is a tight knit riverfront community. I think it's the racial mix and friendliness of people? And the crime, of course.

Bywater is by far my fave part of Nola and I really can't wait to get back there. You should definitely consider SA for your honeymoon - it's a great country and I can't say enough good things about it. I'm seriously considering taking a year or two to work there, preferably in Joburg.

[Ex-Ithacan]

WOW, that was amazing. Plenty of pics covering a wide variety of places. And the info you provided was a huge plus. Thanks for the all the effort to put this thread together.

[niwell]

Here's a good music video that hits almost all the spots I went to. The artist is from Jozi and quite good:

• Video Link

[SHiRO]

Fantastic thread! Spend quite some time looking at your pics and reading your commentary!