Phoenix Development News (3)

[ASUSunDevil]

Originally Posted by PhxMatt

It's interesting the timing of this release, if you look at the Red Development website there is a project that was announced a couple of days ago in Dallas called Union. It has a 14 story office tower, a 20 story apartment building and a large retail component that looks to house a grocery store. This may be a preview of what a new downtown Phoenix project could be modeled after, purely speculation of course. Depending on the demand for new office space in Downtown the tower heights would obviously vary.

I actually posted about this several months ago, my company was asked to look at the infrastructure needed to support more density in the area. I will check with our liaison when I get a chance and see if there are more details. I imagine there won't be much more shown until there has been a fairly large office tenant secured.

When I read the Dallas RED article a few days ago, Block 23 immediately came to mind. I think we'll get a very similar development:

http://realestate.dmagazine.com/2016/03/red-development-wins-best-retail-deal-award/

The location won't seem silly when you consider the residential component it encompasses, and that it will probably kick Central Station back into gear. Downtown employees will eat there during the day (I'm sure it will have a cafe/deli/Starbucks etc.) and they'll grab groceries before they head home.

Block 23 is easily Downtown's biggest development hole. This news is awesome.

[HooverDam]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

I have a few friends employed by RED who have been alluding to this for a couple of years, I've mostly brushed them off, it just seems like such a silly location.

it's a silly location in the context of where downton residents currently are, but that A. Fails to recognize that RED has the land it has, it can't just plop a grocery store on any ole lot like we live in SimCity, B. A grocery store will have a large impact on where residents will be in the future.

Obviously some residential will be a portion of this project. We'll also have the Central Station residents within a close walk. We have the Marriott going up just a block south. This development may also contain a hotel component. RED also control the Collier Center and it's big empty pad, could that become residential? This is all to say nothing of the current Arena site which if the Suns move out of Downtown or to the South Convention Center site could be redeveloped and again, include retail.

Block 23 is in the heart of what has the most potential to be the highest concentration of residences. Sure at the moment we're seeing a lot of 5 floor residential going up closer to Roosevelt. But the area surrounding Block 23 has the potential for 20+ story development.

[Jjs5056]

I question the motivation for putting downtown's first grocery store in an area that - right now - is surrounded by very little residential density. A grocery store near McKinley/Central would service Evans Churchill, Roosevelt, and ASU, and should have been the primary location sought IMO. The Cityscape > Colliers area seems much more appropriate for shopping and entertainment vs. resident services. On top of the minimal residential that exists, I don't see how hotels add to the market for a grocery store? CVS should cover their needs.

Office+Residential in one tower is not very common. Office+Hotel and Residential+Hotel are most likely. I'd like to see the lot eventually built out with 1 residential tower on Jefferson/1st, 1 hotel+resident tower along Washington, and 1 office tower near Jefferson/2nd. I hope the market can support at least 1 residential and 1 office tower of decent height. It would be great if the office tower attracts more than just Midtown relocations. Landing a regional HQs would be awesome, but if it's a matter of cannibalization, I hope it steals from Scottsdale.

RED has struggled to lease Colliers, and tenants are slowly leaving CityScape, so I have concerns about both the design and viability of anything they do. The design of this block is very important given its surroundings, and a grocery store has the potential for multiple blank walls if not designed properly with shallow retail lining the secondary street frontage. If the south half is developed, I hope the Fry's entrance is on 1st Street, a few sport/lifestyle retail spaces underneath the residential tower portion of Jefferson (Lulu Lemon, Nike store, Hi-Health, etc.), and space for large-scale retail underneath the office tower.

It's exciting to have a realistic tower in the piepeline for the CBD, but I don't see this making Central Station or Barrister any more realistic; given the City's record, both seem like long-shots. Also, I'd love to see the Warehouse District be revitalized with some more lofts and retail, but that won't happen until the arena is redesigned, which should include housing itself. Ballpark Lofts, though, are hopefully dead for good - it was an awful project.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by PHXFlyer11

Interesting it says more details could be released later today...

I think this is going to be pretty underwhelming, but I'm hopeful. I think the primary component will be residential.

I don't know if there is enough residential in the immediate area to support a full blown Fry's. For example, if I lived in Roosevelt I'd probably go to the Safeway on McDowell. Maybe this could spark an increase in retail development for southern downtown and the warehouse district. Would be great to see Barrister and Ballpark Apartments finally get going... Maybe we could see additional mid or high-rises proposed with the grocery store and additional retail.

Kroger has a much larger consumer base and better overall pricing than Safeway. Plus, that Safeway is junk and not one of their best locations. I think a Fry's....even by CityScape, would actually take a chunk of their business.

I'm pretty sure Kroger has than done their homework (being a Cinicinnati native, I may be a little biased on this). So I think they have a good idea of what to expect with this development. There has to be a residential component by RED on this or I don't think this would even be on the table.

[biggus diggus]

Originally Posted by HooverDam

it's a silly location in the context of where downton residents currently are, but that A. Fails to recognize that RED has the land it has, it can't just plop a grocery store on any ole lot like we live in SimCity, B. A grocery store will have a large impact on where residents will be in the future.

Obviously some residential will be a portion of this project. We'll also have the Central Station residents within a close walk. We have the Marriott going up just a block south. This development may also contain a hotel component. RED also control the Collier Center and it's big empty pad, could that become residential? This is all to say nothing of the current Arena site which if the Suns move out of Downtown or to the South Convention Center site could be redeveloped and again, include retail.

Block 23 is in the heart of what has the most potential to be the highest concentration of residences. Sure at the moment we're seeing a lot of 5 floor residential going up closer to Roosevelt. But the area surrounding Block 23 has the potential for 20+ story development.

Yeah I'm not an Idiot, I don't need you to explain it to me like I'm five. It's a silly location regardless of how you want to rationalize it. You can make a snide remark implying that I think this is Sim city and all I'm going to do is file that away to remember that you're unpleasant and condescending.

Sometimes things get built in silly locations because it makes financial sense, that doesn't make the location any less silly.

[phoenixwillrise]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

Yeah I'm not an Idiot, I don't need you to explain it to me like I'm five. It's a silly location regardless of how you want to rationalize it. You can make a snide remark implying that I think this is Sim city and all I'm going to do is file that away to remember that you're unpleasant and condescending.

Sometimes things get built in silly locations because it makes financial sense, that doesn't make the location any less silly.

It may be silly but who gives a — let's get it built. As I always say "Don't worry about the horses being blind just load the wagon." A more logical site would be between the ASU DT Campus and the Library but heh let Whole Foods Grab that spot after these guys do their thing.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by biggus diggus

Yeah I'm not an Idiot, I don't need you to explain it to me like I'm five. It's a silly location regardless of how you want to rationalize it. You can make a snide remark implying that I think this is Sim city and all I'm going to do is file that away to remember that you're unpleasant and condescending.

Sometimes things get built in silly locations because it makes financial sense, that doesn't make the location any less silly.

I don't think it is that silly,

It is two stops from Roosevelt and 2 stops from the east lake park residences by train and only a couple of blocks from 3rd/Roosevelt.

people using the grocery store downtown wont be making large grocery trips they can walk a couple blocks.

anyone doing a large grocery trip would drive anyway.

[downtownphxguy12]

Went to above meeting last night, some tidbits:

Starbucks coming in SE corner of roosevelt and 7th ave. looks like building will be set on corner with drivethru in back. not the best thing but better than a crappy carwash and factory built building (old lock smith)

Charlie Levy (crescent ballroom) wants to open 1000 sq ft neighborhood bar in existing building north of acme prints (the building that has tax sign on it). He wont put signage on 7th ave, so will be a hidden gem, hopefully.

Developer, architect, attorney for circles records development gave a presentation on their project. I liked it. Keeping half of original records store, demoing the uninspiring north part. Wants to put a restaurant in that space. Has an original mezzanine and they are hoping the original turntable in the circle area still works.

[nickw252]

I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with me I'm hoping this Fry's is like an urban style supermarket that you'd see in a city like Chicago. It should have a large footprint, and easily accessible parking below and above the store. We don't need something too fancy or faux urban like that old Oakville Grocery store that failed. We need something that is practical for grocery shopping that will actually succeed (i.e. something that is easily accessible by both transit/walking and cars, & something that serves more as a grocery store than a lunch counter).

An example of one in Chicago is below. It does not have surface parking, however it has parking on the first floor, the supermarket on the second floor, and parking on the roof. It may not be as fancy or improve the skyline as having a highrise, but it's a lot more practical and useful. Adding apartments above the supermarket is certainly an option, but in my eyes, it is by no means a requirement.

[spoonman]

Can anyone tell me what the height limit is in DT PHX?

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by spoonman

Can anyone tell me what the height limit is in DT PHX?

Due to the airport the further south you go the lower the limit. I think its like 1300-1500 feet for most of downtown (but Downtown is at 1000 feet already) the further north you go the less of a restriction there is

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by spoonman

Can anyone tell me what the height limit is in DT PHX?

It varies. The farther SE towards Jefferson you go, the lower the limit due to Sky Harbors flight paths. There's a height map somewhere on here. I'll see if I can dig it up or someone else may.

Phoenix is not as limited in height restrictions as San Diego. There have been some pretty tall proposals that never panned out. One of these days, we will break the 500ft barrier

[PHX31]

Originally Posted by downtownphxguy12

Went to above meeting last night, some tidbits:

Starbucks coming in SE corner of roosevelt and 7th ave. looks like building will be set on corner with drivethru in back. not the best thing but better than a crappy carwash and factory built building (old lock smith)

Thanks for all of the info. This sounds like a positive. Better than what's there for sure.

Originally Posted by downtownphxguy12

Charlie Levy (crescent ballroom) wants to open 1000 sq ft neighborhood bar in existing building north of acme prints (the building that has tax sign on it). He wont put signage on 7th ave, so will be a hidden gem, hopefully.

This is awesome. I saw that little building and it looks like it was recently worked on to remove the facade skin revealing the original building and "Tax Services" ghost sign (not as old and transparent as some ghost signs, but still cool). The print shop is also a newly renovated building that looks nice. Will the bar only include that little building, or also the historic duplex/triplex next to it on the SEC of 7th Ave/McKinley? I think that is boarded up, hopefully it'll be saved if not by this project, another.

Originally Posted by downtownphxguy12

Developer, architect, attorney for circles records development gave a presentation on their project. I liked it. Keeping half of original records store, demoing the uninspiring north part. Wants to put a restaurant in that space. Has an original mezzanine and they are hoping the original turntable in the circle area still works.

Yeah, but, the uninspiring north part contrasts with the awesome south part in perfect architectural harmony just as the original designer intended. So they can't demo only that part it will ruin everything and the entire city will rot and die.

The uproar some of the preservationists made was so over the top and ridiculous. I like their gumption considering what has happened throughout the ages in Phoenix, but be reasonable and accept a good compromise. The developer's plan sounds great, we'll see how it turns out.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by nickw252

I'm sure plenty of people will disagree with me I'm hoping this Fry's is like an urban style supermarket that you'd see in a city like Chicago. It should have a large footprint, and easily accessible parking below and above the store. We don't need something too fancy or faux urban like that old Oakville Grocery store that failed. We need something that is practical for grocery shopping that will actually succeed (i.e. something that is easily accessible by both transit/walking and cars, & something that serves more as a grocery store than a lunch counter).

An example of one in Chicago is below. It does not have surface parking, however it has parking on the first floor, the supermarket on the second floor, and parking on the roof. It may not be as fancy or improve the skyline as having a highrise, but it's a lot more practical and useful. Adding apartments above the supermarket is certainly an option, but in my eyes, it is by no means a requirement.

I think an urban design is what we are all hoping for. I'm surpised no one has mentioned the CityScape Residences. That's like around 200 residents (not sure how filled it is) that will be using this Fry's frequently being they will be right across the street.

[spoonman]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

It varies. The farther SE towards Jefferson you go, the lower the limit due to Sky Harbors flight paths. There's a height map somewhere on here. I'll see if I can dig it up or someone else may.

Phoenix is not as limited in height restrictions as San Diego. There have been some pretty tall proposals that never panned out. One of these days, we will break the 500ft barrier

As a SSP enthusiest, it has been very difficult watching San Diego build building after building at the max height limit.

Glad to hear that PHX has a much higher limit, even though developers have not yet taken advantage of it.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by spoonman

As a SSP enthusiest, it has been very difficult watching San Diego build building after building at the max height limit.

Glad to hear that PHX has a much higher limit, even though developers have not yet taken advantage of it.

Yes, but even so, I think SD has one of the most beautiful downtowns in the country. I would love for Phoenix to have that skyline!

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by RonnieFoos

Yes, but even so, I think SD has one of the most beautiful downtowns in the country. I would love for Phoenix to have that skyline!

Another great example of height =/= quality of a downtown/urban living

You could say the same for DC, Vancouver and Portland.

A lot of people wrongfully assume a city needs to have tons of glass towers to have a good downtown.

[spoonman]

DT SD is fantastic, I just know that the skyline would be much taller if not for the height limits. SD has a ton of twin tower sets, which arguably could have been very tall single towers. That's all I'm saying.

Being new to the PHX board, I was curious if people on this board appreciate street life and density over sheer height.

[CrestedSaguaro]

Originally Posted by spoonman

DT SD is fantastic, I just know that the skyline would be much taller if not for the height limits. SD has a ton of twin tower sets, which arguably could have been very tall single towers. That's all I'm saying.

Being new to the PHX board, I was curious if people on this board appreciate street life and density over sheer height.

I think most of us want street life and density which is currently the trend that Phoenix is going in. Having an occasional 200ft building thrown in (such as Circles and Derby) help add to that density without going overboard on height when it's not needed right now in Phoenix.

However, the denser a downtown core gets, it will naturally get taller developments at a certain point.

Phoenix is probably about 10+ years away from getting a new tallest and I think that's a good thing. I like the current boom of developments that are adding much needed density right now.

[downtownphxguy12]

Originally Posted by PHX31

This is awesome. I saw that little building and it looks like it was recently worked on to remove the facade skin revealing the original building and "Tax Services" ghost sign (not as old and transparent as some ghost signs, but still cool). The print shop is also a newly renovated building that looks nice. Will the bar only include that little building, or also the historic duplex/triplex next to it on the SEC of 7th Ave/McKinley? I think that is boarded up, hopefully it'll be saved if not by this project, another.

they're restoring the two buildings on mckinley and hope to put small retail or office in them. bar will have a small patio on the east side.

I own the building to the east and might take my site wall down from 6 ft to 3 ft and put an entrance so i can access it more easily.

the alley between us used to be a big homeless handout. nice to see them move on