Lansdowne Park Redevelopment Phase 1 | Completed

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Kitchener was looking at a 9000 seat arena, hence the figure in my post.

Not sure what stats you are looking at in terms of attendance. The 67s were over 7000 per game every year until 2011-2012, when they still averaged 6500. They had a big drop off when they moved to Kanata, and they haven't yet recovered since coming back to Lansdowne (all coiinciding with bad, bordering on terrible teams and almost no marketing), but there are a lot of signs that they are trending higher. They ended the season with 3 of 4 games over 5000, as were both of their playoff games.

With a good team next year, or even a few high end prospects to watch, those numbers will be up significantly. It would be very shortsighted to build a new arena for the 67s with a capacity of less than 6-7000 people. The cost of one of those would probably be closer to the high end of the $50-100 million range that I cited.

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=7314

I can't vouch for the source.

It is hard to make a comparison because the city has not published clear figures on how much they spent on Lansdowne, but $50-70M seems to be the going rate for recent OHL (Windsor, Kingston, St. Catherines) areans and that would have yielded a new arena that would have had lower maintenance and longer lifespan (also could have allowed a more symmetrical stadium with better site lines). The steel problem alone was $23 million (for which the city has had to offer a loan guarantee).

[Boxster]

Originally Posted by phil235

Kitchener was looking at a 9000 seat arena, hence the figure in my post.

Not sure what stats you are looking at in terms of attendance. The 67s were over 7000 per game every year until 2011-2012, when they still averaged 6500. They had a big drop off when they moved to Kanata, and they haven't yet recovered since coming back to Lansdowne (all coiinciding with bad, bordering on terrible teams and almost no marketing), but there are a lot of signs that they are trending higher. They ended the season with 3 of 4 games over 5000, as were both of their playoff games.

With a good team next year, or even a few high end prospects to watch, those numbers will be up significantly. It would be very shortsighted to build a new arena for the 67s with a capacity of less than 6-7000 people. The cost of one of those would probably be closer to the high end of the $50-100 million range that I cited.

I wonder if the Olympics of Gatineau will ever get to play at Lansdowne given that Guertin Arena is on its final miles and that a new stadium is still nowhere in sight. Would also be interesting to see what attendance they could attract.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

http://www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=7314

I can't vouch for the source.

It is hard to make a comparison because the city has not published clear figures on how much they spent on Lansdowne, but $50-70M seems to be the going rate for recent OHL (Windsor, Kingston, St. Catherines) areans and that would have yielded a new arena that would have had lower maintenance and longer lifespan (also could have allowed a more symmetrical stadium with better site lines). The steel problem alone was $23 million (for which the city has had to offer a loan guarantee).

Windsor would be the best comparison at 6500 seats. It cost approximately $80 million to build (inflation adjusted). Add to that the cost of land if you build elsewhere, or demolition/remediation if you somehow find a way to build at Lansdowne and not make the stadium fall down, which is pretty unlikely. You are certainly flirting with $100 million for the arena alone to get what you are describing.

The published figure on the stadium/arena cost was $129 million. Even adding the cost of the steel problem as an arena cost, (though technically the loan guarantee is not a city cost, it just gives OSEG access to better lending rates) that comes to $152 million for both the stadium and the arena.

To do a fair comparison, you need to take the roughly $90-100 million for the arena and add the $150-200 million to rebuild the entire stadium, and you are at $250-300 million. On the other hand, we got two very workable facilities for $100 million less than that. That covers a lot of maintenance.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

So what you're saying is that you don't like shopping, eating, drinking alcohol, or coffee, watching sports, or movies.

Not a huge shopping fan (but would tend to go to Rideau Centre/Market or the Trainyards) and I don't do the professional sports entertainment thing, but very big on all the rest - all of it elsewhere in Ottawa when I'm there. We did try out a couple of good new (to me) eateries in the Glebe, so we did get close! I suppose the thing that would most draw me to Landsdowne would be the farmers market in summer.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by phil235

Windsor would be the best comparison at 6500 seats. It cost approximately $80 million to build (inflation adjusted). Add to that the cost of land if you build elsewhere, or demolition/remediation if you somehow find a way to build at Lansdowne and not make the stadium fall down, which is pretty unlikely. You are certainly flirting with $100 million for the arena alone to get what you are describing.

The published figure on the stadium/arena cost was $129 million. Even adding the cost of the steel problem as an arena cost, (though technically the loan guarantee is not a city cost, it just gives OSEG access to better lending rates) that comes to $152 million for both the stadium and the arena.

To do a fair comparison, you need to take the roughly $90-100 million for the arena and add the $150-200 million to rebuild the entire stadium, and you are at $250-300 million. On the other hand, we got two very workable facilities for $100 million less than that. That covers a lot of maintenance.

So $225M (80M for an arena, $145M for a stadium, or at least that is what the similar Hamilton stadium cost at the same) for brand new vs $152M (so far) for mostly used with only limited renovations, worse sight lines, less revenue potential and a significantly shorter lifespan. I'm not an accountant, but I wonder if that would be the cost-effective decision if things like depreciation and lifecylce maintenance costs were factored in. Certainly as a resident I would rather pay slightly more for brand new facilities.

[YOWetal]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So $225M (80M for an arena, $145M for a stadium, or at least that is what the similar Hamilton stadium cost at the same) for brand new vs $152M (so far) for mostly used with only limited renovations, worse sight lines, less revenue potential and a significantly shorter lifespan. I'm not an accountant, but I wonder if that would be the cost-effective decision if things like depreciation and lifecylce maintenance costs were factored in. Certainly as a resident I would rather pay slightly more for brand new facilities.

What you forget is the residential and retail brought in a lot of revenues so the portion taxpayers paid is a small fraction of this $152 million. (exactly how much depends on how you measure). If you add $75 Million that the city needs to pay for you are looking at a huge increase (double, triple or more) in costs for taxpayers.

[waterloowarrior]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

Wow, banned on the first post. Gotta be a record!! I assume this was probably Fatty, using a different name but same email?

Yes I think this is around the 20th time he's been banned

[movebyleap]

Not sure - why was that person banned? There was nothing offensive in his/her comment.

[Harley613]

I saw Bill Burr at TD Place Arena last Sunday. I had forgotten how incredibly uncomfortable the seat pitch is in there. I'm 6'3" and I had to fold my legs like origami just to sit straight. I can say with absolute certainty that I will NEVER go to an event there again, I was actually in pain the entire show.

[m3i6]

Originally Posted by movebyleap

Not sure - why was that person banned? There was nothing offensive in his/her comment.

Could be the Username (think vintage 🞵🞵🞵🞵 names) but most likely the email used to create the account was associated to a previously banned account.

[alecz_dad]

Between the still uncomfortable seating (and don't forget the lousy sightlines) and the fact a small, boisterous crowd -- such as the fans for Twenty-one Pilots last week -- were able to bring down the ceiling in the gym underneath, I'd say the arena reno has been a standout success!!!

Originally Posted by Harley613

I saw Bill Burr at TD Place Arena last Sunday. I had forgotten how incredibly uncomfortable the seat pitch is in there. I'm 6'3" and I had to fold my legs like origami just to sit straight. I can say with absolute certainty that I will NEVER go to an event there again, I was actually in pain the entire show.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by YOWetal

What you forget is the residential and retail brought in a lot of revenues so the portion taxpayers paid is a small fraction of this $152 million. (exactly how much depends on how you measure). If you add $75 Million that the city needs to pay for you are looking at a huge increase (double, triple or more) in costs for taxpayers.

Did the housing and retail revenue go directly to the city? My understanding is that the city gave it away for free and doesn't see a dime until OSEG breaks even and then profits are shared at that point. (Although I could be wrong, details with this arrangement are hard to come by).

Of course the city could have just sold the land on the open market (with whatever conditions they want) and used the money to fund the sports facilities.

[alecz_dad]

Not clear that the City is seeing any revenues from the retail or residential. Don't forget, the City gave Lansdowne away for $1 per year, instead of selling it to OSEG.

And so far, the vaunted waterfall agreement yielded zip for the City last year.

Originally Posted by YOWetal

What you forget is the residential and retail brought in a lot of revenues so the portion taxpayers paid is a small fraction of this $152 million. (exactly how much depends on how you measure). If you add $75 Million that the city needs to pay for you are looking at a huge increase (double, triple or more) in costs for taxpayers.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

Not clear that the City is seeing any revenues from the retail or residential. Don't forget, the City gave Lansdowne away for $1 per year, instead of selling it to OSEG.

And so far, the vaunted waterfall agreement yielded zip for the City last year.

Not quite. The City was spending $4 million a year to maintain the park that it no longer has to spend, plus administrative costs. And don't forget that the $23 million steel repair would have been on the City if not for this arrangement. So that is a $31 million benefit over 2 years right there.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Not a huge shopping fan (but would tend to go to Rideau Centre/Market or the Trainyards) and I don't do the professional sports entertainment thing, but very big on all the rest - all of it elsewhere in Ottawa when I'm there. We did try out a couple of good new (to me) eateries in the Glebe, so we did get close! I suppose the thing that would most draw me to Landsdowne would be the farmers market in summer.

FYI, there is year-round market action at Lansdowne/Aberdeen Pavilion.

http://ottawafarmersmarket.ca/lansdowne-park-ottawa/

Feel free to post about those Glebe eateries in the restaurants thread.

[YOWflier]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

I'd prefer non-greenery. Flower the snot out of the place.

Agree. The abundance of neutral grey at Lansdowne would lend itself nicely to those colourful flowers.

[alecz_dad]

Don't forget that in the past Lansdowne operations were about revenue neutral, once rental revenues were considered.

But all those revenues to the City have been lost, since all the meeting space in the Civic Centre were pushed out in the sweetheart deal with Shenkman to build that nasty barn with no transit stop by the Airport.

And don't forget, that OSEG browbeat the City into helping pay for the roof repairs, when it seems pretty clear that such an overrun should have been OSEG's responsibility.

Because, wasn't that the whole idea with entering into a P3 for this project?: to protect City taxpayers from unanticipated additional costs?
You know, the private capitalist takes the risk, so they reap the rewards.

But sometimes they have to 🞵🞵🞵🞵 extra costs up. Unless they're already in bed with the other party to the contract, and then they make it clear that they'll litigate, so it would be cheaper for the City just to give in.

Originally Posted by phil235

Not quite. The City was spending $4 million a year to maintain the park that it no longer has to spend, plus administrative costs. And don't forget that the $23 million steel repair would have been on the City if not for this arrangement. So that is a $31 million benefit over 2 years right there.

[alecz_dad]

I guess visitors like you are why the City/OSEG want to keep the Farmers Market handcuffed to Lansdowne, despite the expressed desire of many Market sellers to go back to Brewer Park.

Instead of letting them go back to Brewer -- to which the Market was exiled for several years when the Lansdowne construction was going on, but which they discovered was a much better location for them -- they're obliged to remain as OSEG's performing monkeys, to try to animate Lansdowne's moribund, windswept public spaces.

That is, as long as the Market doesn't get in the way of the sacred rites of football. In which case they've been told in no uncertain terms that they should fold up their tents and GTFO.

Originally Posted by kwoldtimer

Not a huge shopping fan (but would tend to go to Rideau Centre/Market or the Trainyards) and I don't do the professional sports entertainment thing, but very big on all the rest - all of it elsewhere in Ottawa when I'm there. We did try out a couple of good new (to me) eateries in the Glebe, so we did get close! I suppose the thing that would most draw me to Landsdowne would be the farmers market in summer.

[phil235]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So $225M (80M for an arena, $145M for a stadium, or at least that is what the similar Hamilton stadium cost at the same) for brand new vs $152M (so far) for mostly used with only limited renovations, worse sight lines, less revenue potential and a significantly shorter lifespan. I'm not an accountant, but I wonder if that would be the cost-effective decision if things like depreciation and lifecylce maintenance costs were factored in. Certainly as a resident I would rather pay slightly more for brand new facilities.

I don't necessarily disagree with you on that point - I would probably have been willing to spend more for new facilities (on the same site), but I'm not sure that the City had the appetite to go there. As for the Hamiltion example, that stadium is pretty bare bones for 145M. We defintiely got a nicer stadium for our money.

Not sure about all of your other assumptions. The sightlines in both facilities are fine - not sure when that has ever been an issue. And I don't know that maintenance would be lower or the lifecycle would be longer with a new facility. As we know from the Canadian Tire Centre, they don't build them like they used to.

I do think that there is some value in having a unique facility versus one of the generic, run of the mill facilities that have recently gone up elsewhere.

[kwoldtimer]

Originally Posted by alecz_dad

I guess visitors like you are why the City/OSEG want to keep the Farmers Market handcuffed to Lansdowne, despite the expressed desire of many Market sellers to go back to Brewer Park.

Instead of letting them go back to Brewer -- to which the Market was exiled for several years when the Lansdowne construction was going on, but which they discovered was a much better location for them -- they're obliged to remain as OSEG's performing monkeys, to try to animate Lansdowne's moribund, windswept public spaces.

That is, as long as the Market doesn't get in the way of the sacred rites of football. In which case they've been told in no uncertain terms that they should fold up their tents and GTFO.

No, don't blame me! I think most serious market goers would agree that the Brewer Park arrangement was better than what exists now at Landsdowne. My comment merely reflected the fact that this is where the market moved, and that there's nothing else there that would constitute a "destination" for me.