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  #1661  
Old Posted Mar 30, 2016, 5:47 AM
Mininari Mininari is offline
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Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
Have followed that stuff and everything else to boot. Always roll my eyes. BTW, the article that ya are referencing only makes an attribute to Richmond councillor Harold Steeves. He seems to be in the forefront of the anti-GMB crowd.

Do ya know Steeve's background? As hard-core enviro as one gets and always considered to be an oddball... as well as former one-term Richmond NDP MLA (back in 1972 Barrett gov't).
Nope. Sorry, not too familiar with Richmond Local Politicians. I've been spending my recent time learning local Victoria Politics (of which I am sick of listening to sewage treatment bickering!), and am following the GMB project because its so darn big at $3.5B. If what you say about Steeves is true, then my apprehension definitely wanes a bit. I prefer to take the middle ground on most issues, (especially ones the 'enviro-wackos' might be strongly opinionated on).
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  #1662  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2016, 3:05 AM
cairnstone cairnstone is offline
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Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
One matter that ya must also take into account - the existing 351 rapid bus with high-bucket seats and 110 km/hr travel speeds down the 99 Fwy is a much more superior transit service, both in terms of comfort and speed, than the Canada Line (or extension) would ever be.

The fwy rapid bus is the highest quality transit service in Metro Vancouver. I have absolutely no doubt about that.

Interesting that ya mention the South Surrey Park N Ride for the 351 to the Canada Line though. For years it has always been full. Even today. So much so that several years back the BC gov't funded a doubling of its size with a new lot on the NW quadrant of the KGH interchange.

Yet, when it opened up back in early, 2014 it initially sat empty:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-co...surrey-park-and-ride-lot-empty-1.2497799

And, to date, considerable residential development has occurred since then in this neck of the woods. Yet, over 2 years later the new lot still remains wholly empty (literally - not a single car on any given day). Frankly, I don't understand that and can't figure out same.
Just because you have transit does not mean you will get riders. If I could afford to live in south surrey chances are I wont take transit. I live a few blocks of millennium line and only take it for events downtown as i'm cheap wont pay 40 bucks parking. When I had a site downtown I took the train as it was a short walk to the site. If I had to transfer to bus I would have drove.
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  #1663  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2016, 4:17 AM
GMasterAres GMasterAres is offline
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Originally Posted by Mininari View Post
So who's had a reversal of opinion on this project... I was pretty strongly for it it when it was first announced, but now that we are watching the resource economy tank, and the business case for this bridge / tunnel removal concept getting crushed... as well as all the other controversy surrounding it (tolls, port expansion, deleted emails, expected traffic armageddon at the Vancouver-Richmond Bridges)... is it really a good idea to spend $3.5Billion(!) on this bridge, some widening (that won't help northbound) and a few interchanges? Seems the original plan to add 2 additional tunnel lanes, and rebuild interchanges would be considerably cheaper and effective in conjunction with the supporting highway network.
That's what happens when people start throwing out misinformation. I'd just suggest being careful with all the rhetoric that has suddenly appeared in recent weeks. I mean where was it last year? It's not like the traffic has vanished because the economy is not as strong lately. And controversy surrounding expected traffic Armageddon? I'm just a little skeptical of motive given it seems to me the only reason people are more vocal lately is because a few other 'hot button' topics have been settled or are resolved and the professional protester group has to focus on another battle to fight. LNG pipeline has been nixed, Site C is basically going forward, LNG in Squamish is likely a go, not much else to protect against right now right?

Anyone who ever claims though that traffic isn't an issue and that there is no problem, I challenge them to go drive the GMT or Alex Fraser every day for just 1 week during rush hour both directions. You'll learn in about 2 days how ridiculously busy both are. You toll an new GMBridge and leave Alex Fraser untolled, and you bet it will be traffic Armageddon. We just hired a staffer who lives in Kits and has to go through the GMT every day now. In 3 weeks now he has averages a 1-way commute by car of 1 hour 15 minutes. That's going 23KM against rush hour... against. In contrast, I live and work South of Fraser (live in Surrey Central) and my 1 way commute takes 30 minutes on the dot and I drive 28KM roughly. So 5KM more each way, 10KM more both directions yet my daily commute is 1 hour and his 2.5 hours.

Yah definitely no problems at the GMT... if there was no traffic at the GMT guess how long his commute would be? 26 minutes.

It already is traffic Armageddon that's just fact. Hell today during a short week with the holiday season, traffic was backed up to 41st on Oak Street heading out to HWY99 and through the tunnel. 41st! People are against environmental impact but how much impact does a line of 3 lanes of cars 20KM virtually idling for 2 hours have? Heck of a lot.

It's super easy for people to armchair advocate unfortunately especially when certain groups start saying "Don't believe them because I say they are untrustworthy and they have ulterior motives I have no proof about but sound good to skeptics and conspiracy theory believers."

I believe my own eyes and simple reality agree or not.

It's actually funny someone was on CKNW just today talking about how he felt spending $3.5 billion on the GMB is a waste of dollars and there are better things to spend the money on like affordable housing. I actually laughed. What does he think the GMB is? It is making living out in the suburbs where it is actually affordable, more affordable. But see sprawl is a bad thing. We need less sprawl and more $1,800 a month studio apartments on Cambie and 12th...

*shrug* we just seem to be a region of "NO" for pretty much everything. Hell how much stink was made about the replacement of St. Paul's Hospital. Hell even transit gets people against it! I can't think of any major positive initiative anywhere in Metro-Vancouver that hasn't had some group against it claiming the end of the world. Unfortunately I just tend to tune them out today and not give the nay sayers a lot of air time in my head and stick to the facts.

Edit: Sorry missed your point about the economy and wanted to counter that the economy of BC has a far more muted affect on Port Metro-Vancouver than most other industries here. It may have "Metro-Vancouver" in its name but it is really port "Pacific Canada" because it is the gateway for the entire country to the Pacific Ocean. That means even if our economy struggles and Alberta's tanks, Quebec and Ontario will be ramping up manufacturing and all that stuff needs to go somewhere. A lot goes to the US but a measurable amount also gets shipped through our ports along with goods that go into the manufacturing process. That and last I checked, BC's economy hasn't tanked. Again because Alberta's has doesn't mean we tank automagically. BC is actually by the numbers doing OK and by most projections will actually grow stronger in the coming years as we are far less resource dependent than our neighbor Alberta who largely has been a 1-trick pony. What has been hit is the Liberal's magical LNG utopia. But our economy doesn't rest on an economy the Provincial Government invented and actually doesn't exist today.

So unlike a lot of industries in the Metro-Vancouver area, the ports are a lot less affected by our local or even provincial economy. And anyway these things go in cycles. Commodities are low right now, in 15-20 years they'll go up again. This bridge won't even be complete until 2022 and likely 2023/2024 with some delays. That's 8 years away and a lot of time for things to ebb and flow. That's why large capital projects can't be as focused on today and focus far more big picture.

Last edited by GMasterAres; Mar 31, 2016 at 5:00 AM.
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  #1664  
Old Posted Mar 31, 2016, 4:32 AM
GMasterAres GMasterAres is offline
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Originally Posted by Mininari View Post
Nope. Sorry, not too familiar with Richmond Local Politicians. I've been spending my recent time learning local Victoria Politics (of which I am sick of listening to sewage treatment bickering!), and am following the GMB project because its so darn big at $3.5B. If what you say about Steeves is true, then my apprehension definitely wanes a bit. I prefer to take the middle ground on most issues, (especially ones the 'enviro-wackos' might be strongly opinionated on).
Richmond isn't against it because of the environment. You may read some "environmental" concerns but that's only because politicians know what hot buttons to push, they're politicians.

Richmond in truth is just being a giant city NIMBY for the region. They weren't really against it in force until stats came out that 60% of traffic (trucks and cars) terminus at Richmond not Vancouver. As that came out Richmond started to get aggressive about being against it (though they were actually mainly against from the start) but you've also seen Vancouver back right off.

Truth of the matter is the traffic is there and South of Fraser is growing by 6 figures or more in the next 40 years. Unless North of Fraser want to be an island and effectively lose 100% of industry and all direct connection to the US, the GMT needs to be dealt with and quite frankly anything other than a bridge is just putting lipstick on a pig. I've made my points and counter points in this thread in previous threads so I'll spare repeating myself again.

My only advice, is take everything with a grain of salt even if the person saying it has "Councilor", "Mayor", or even "MLA" after their name. Especially if the person has that after their name... and also most of the news in Metro-Vancouver is biased and editorialized. This is why I stick to my own eyes and reading actual reports and more than 1 report to form my opinions the majority of the time.
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  #1665  
Old Posted Apr 3, 2016, 2:31 PM
Kisai Kisai is offline
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LNG pipeline has been nixed, Site C is basically going forward, LNG in Squamish is likely a go, not much else to protect against right now right?

Anyone who ever claims though that traffic isn't an issue and that there is no problem, I challenge them to go drive the GMT or Alex Fraser every day for just 1 week during rush hour both directions.
David Suzuki seems to think that Site C was nixed decades ago and framed it as environment battles are never over, they are just smoldering fires.

The misinformation out there fits the narrative that the local media wants to have, and generally the local media is some of the most lopsided news when it comes to coverage about the political issues.

Like every news item goes like this:
"Controversy surrounding the XXXXX project..."
Stock footage of government promoting the project.
"... seems to think it shouldn't go ahead..."
Sound bite from the most scraggly looking protesters they can find
"... cost ..."
2 minute interview with the government opposition, CTF, or some other political think-tank.

You almost never see an actual interview with the government official that is responsible for the project, or the project's engineers that saying that it makes sense to do it.

Like, with the GMT, I've actually read about it mostly from this thread. The televised news and local newspapers seem to have no idea why the GMT needs to be replaced, and the commentators on such articles, even less so.
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  #1666  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2016, 10:42 PM
officedweller officedweller is offline
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  #1667  
Old Posted Apr 8, 2016, 11:12 PM
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WarrenC12 WarrenC12 is online now
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Well, I don't trust much the Zalm has to say. I'm sure he prefers a tunnel option because it's safer from chemtrails...

Things like the 2005-06 report saying the tunnel is good for another 50 years are very annoying though. Clearly the government of the day (and today) commission these reports with foregone conclusions. It can't have changed significantly in 10 years.
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  #1668  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 4:38 PM
Kisai Kisai is offline
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Well, I don't trust much the Zalm has to say. I'm sure he prefers a tunnel option because it's safer from chemtrails...

Things like the 2005-06 report saying the tunnel is good for another 50 years are very annoying though. Clearly the government of the day (and today) commission these reports with foregone conclusions. It can't have changed significantly in 10 years.
What changed was the 2011 Tohoku earthquake and Tsunami. That's the same kind of earthquake expected here. Tsunami, not so much.

http://assets.ibc.ca/Documents/Studies/IBC-EQ-Study-Full.pdf (page 79)
Quote:
Moderate to extensive damage due to ground shaking and liquefaction is expected to the Alex Fraser Bridge, which spans the Fraser River and connects Delta to Annacis Island. It may be closed for inspection and initial repairs in the few days after the event but fullscale repairs may take several weeks. The George Massey Tunnel is a road tunnel
under the Fraser River, connecting the City of Richmond to the north with the
Corporation of Delta to the south. Only slight damage, such as minor cracking of the tunnel liner or slight settlement of the ground at a tunnel portal is anticipated.
The tunnel will require no more than cosmetic repair and is expected to be
operational after initial inspection
So even such reports don't support the "doesn't meet seismic requirements", yet the Alex Fraser Bridge would suffer more damage.
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  #1669  
Old Posted Apr 12, 2016, 7:01 PM
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Haven't we always expected potential earthquakes in the 8.0+ range?

In this report from 2013, even the Knight St. bridge is expected to have "moderate" damage, more than the "slight" of the GMT.
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  #1670  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2016, 10:53 PM
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Mythbusting the Mythbusters

Patrick Johnstone has written an interesting blog entry on the recent "fact sheet" produced by the province with respect to the GMB:

https://patrickjohnstone.ca/2016/04/myths-and-lies.html

Well written, as is the rest of Patrick's blog. I think he provides a very reasonable perspective on a lot of items. He's a new (since 2014) city councilor in New West.
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  #1671  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2016, 11:17 PM
whatnext whatnext is offline
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Patrick Johnstone has written an interesting blog entry on the recent "fact sheet" produced by the province with respect to the GMB:

https://patrickjohnstone.ca/2016/04/myths-and-lies.html

Well written, as is the rest of Patrick's blog. I think he provides a very reasonable perspective on a lot of items. He's a new (since 2014) city councilor in New West.
No surprise the car-haters are out in full force over the tunnel replacement. They've been used to getting their way civically for a decade and they can't bear it when their pet theories are challenged.
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  #1672  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2016, 11:27 PM
GMasterAres GMasterAres is offline
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Haven't read the entire thing but on his first point I think I'd have to again caution people believing everything anyone with something after their name says. I'll point out why:

Quote:
If we define “The project” as a 10-lane high level bridge, then clearly it is not the only solution to the problems presented here. Traffic congestion in the bridge has been demonstrated to be getting better, not worse, over the last decade, and the Ministry’s own data shows that 87% of vehicles in the tunnel are cars (almost all single-occupant) while more than a quarter of the *people* going through the tunnel are in the 1% of vehicles that comprise the inadequate transit service through the tube.
Point 1:

Let's take the first point. Congestion has been going down? He misses the context of the greater region, something I find politicians in the individual Metro-Vancouver communities often do. While statistics at the Tunnel have been going _slightly_ down over the past decade, the AFB (the alternate route) has gone up considerably in that same time.

As someone who drives by the Tunnel every single day and has done so now for 15 years straight, my opinion is that the tunnel has reached maximum capacity and traffic numbers there are a result of people simply diverting. Unfortunately he ignores this completely and given his title, is to me being no better than the government he is picking a fight with. They are biased toward building the bridge, he is biased against. Both sides ignoring actual facts.

Point 2:

Good point that a lot of vehicles are single occupancy cars. My question though is this. He assumes he knows who is driving the cars though but doesn't actually detail who these cars belong to and who these drivers are. He can't do that because I don't believe the stats are available nor can the Government.

What the heck do I mean? What percentage of those cars are local commuters who have an option of commuting in HOV? What percentage of those cars are American from the US or Ferry goers?

If the latter is the greater number of the single occupancy vehicles, or make up at least a fair amount, then simply focusing on transit would never solve anything long term. For example, if 20% of your traffic through the tunnel turns out to be a combination of ferry traffic and US border traffic both direction (which is not far fetched imho), then focusing entirely on transit would have as great an impact as he implies.

Without those actual statistics then the same stats we have which are simply vehicles using the tunnel can accurately argue both points.

This is why stats are dangerous!

Quote:
Providing better options for only 15% of the people who use the tunnel would virtually end congestion, leaving a bunch of money left over to finish the work to make the tunnel earthquake safe again. Saying “we need to do something” is not the same as saying “we need to do this thing”. This project is not needed. Myth not busted.
I'm not entirely sure where he gets 15% of the people from. He says 87% of vehicles in the tunnel are cars. So if you add a lane, wouldn't that mean 87% of the people would benefit assuming 1 vehicle = 1 person in this case?

I just don't understand where he pulled 15% from maybe someone can help me. Sounds like Donald Trump numbers.

Quote:
What a steaming pile this is. “keeping traffic moving to reduce GHG emissions” is a perfect example of bullshit: it’s not wrong, it’s just stupid. Ways to reduce GHG impacts of transportation have been studied to death, and yes, idling reduction (depending on conditions) can reduce gas consumption per kilometre, but it does not reduce GHG emissions anywhere near as much as dozens of other available techniques, including modifying trip-making choices, increasing vehicle occupancy rates, shifting (freight and passengers) to more efficient modes, compact community planning, etc. etc. – policies that are directly undermined by this very project! Claiming that “free flowing traffic” induces transit use boggles the mind. The other “improvements” and “enhancements” listed here could easily be funded at a fraction of the cost of building a $3.5Billion bridge, without the boondoggle hanging over it. Why is planting a tree contingent on laying asphalt, what does one have to do with the other? Myth not busted.
My thoughts on his points regarding better reductions in GHG:

1) modifying trip-making choices
A) What trip choices? AFB which is a parking lot too? He forgets there are limited trip choices South of Fraser. Someone from New West I don't think would realize that. Evidently he doesn't. It's like saying Americans have a lot of choice in their next President when the fact is they don't... they have 2 choices out of 300+ million people. So this wouldn't solve anything since we have no choices. I'd love choices.

2) increasing vehicle occupancy rates
A) I'll give this to him but it still doesn't address people from the US border and those from the Ferries which I would venture a guess do contribute a fair amount of traffic through the tunnel. High occupancy vehicle rates are statistically only effective on commuting population. So I don't think this would have as much an impact as he thinks. That and he probably fails to realize there is actually no HOV at the Tunnel... There is an HOV leading sort of too... but no HOV both sides. HOVs get stuck in almost as bad traffic as everyone else.

3) shifting (freight and passengers) to more efficient modes
A) Like? Transit? Ok. Freight to what though? Trains? Where's the train bridge then? Trains are more efficient but our railway network isn't designed to get things NoF to SoF easily and it would likely cost as much to just rebuild the rail network. So that leaves trucks. What mode can they switch too? Blimps?

4) compact community planning
A) Ok but that doesn't solve expensive community housing that is driving sprawl. That's outside of the scope of the Ministry of Transport. They just have to deal with today and now. So I don't see how that is their problem even though I do agree with him here.

The rest of his claim is just as mind boggling since it seems to just be opinion with no facts.

Anyway not going into the rest don't have the time but while it is good to see another point I fear he is no better than the government and as extremely biased the other direction.

*sigh*

When did facts vanish from debate.
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  #1673  
Old Posted Apr 18, 2016, 11:29 PM
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No surprise the car-haters are out in full force over the tunnel replacement. They've been used to getting their way civically for a decade and they can't bear it when their pet theories are challenged.
Ad hominem attacks don't add anything.
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  #1674  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2016, 12:09 AM
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Stingray2004 Stingray2004 is offline
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Let's take the first point. Congestion has been going down? He misses the context of the greater region, something I find politicians in the individual Metro-Vancouver communities often do. While statistics at the Tunnel have been going _slightly_ down over the past decade, the AFB (the alternate route) has gone up considerably in that same time.

As someone who drives by the Tunnel every single day and has done so now for 15 years straight, my opinion is that the tunnel has reached maximum capacity and traffic numbers there are a result of people simply diverting.
That's a no-brainer and I can also corroborate same. BTW, when was the last time that ya were able to achieve the posted 80 km/hr speed limit in the GMT? Been perhaps a decade in my case.

And this Patrick Johnstone fella... a NW councillor? The same New West that at one point placed a locked gate at the Coquitlam boundary where the 4-lane United Blvd ends?

The same New West that opposed the UBExtension?

The same New West that opposed a new 6-lane Pattullo Bridge?

BTW, this Patrick Johnstone fella is also part of a group called "New Westminster Environmental Partners"... posting stuff about David Suzuki on their FB page. BTW, on April 22 - Earth Day - they will be serving up "Green Drinks". Come one... come all.

The granola crowd at its finest.
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  #1675  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2016, 1:28 AM
BCPhil BCPhil is offline
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Originally Posted by WarrenC12 View Post
Patrick Johnstone has written an interesting blog entry on the recent "fact sheet" produced by the province with respect to the GMB:

https://patrickjohnstone.ca/2016/04/myths-and-lies.html

Well written, as is the rest of Patrick's blog. I think he provides a very reasonable perspective on a lot of items. He's a new (since 2014) city councilor in New West.
The problem with this article is it's also bullshit.

It's just a scattershot of ideas being fired at the target to see what sticks. He rants about traffic decreasing, then worries about traffic increasing. How it benefits no one, yet benefits the port.

He's treating it like he is a defense attorney and all he has to do to win is produce reasonable doubt, and to do that you attack it from many, even contradictory angles, because maybe one is just true enough to instill doubt.

I also question his facts he brings up. Right off the bat he cherry picks an article (from the Straight no less) that focuses on traffic change in 2008. You know, the 2008 during which the worst financial crisis since the great depression hit. It claims a 7.5% drop from 2004 to 2008. Yeah, no shit, I would wager that unemployment went up by a similar amount. Canadian GDP drop by 11%

Then he brings up the The Fundamental Law of Road Congestion. So, which is it: is traffic going to decrease or increase? The data he picks shows a decrease, but then he quotes a work that pretty much guarantees an increase.

And that increase is misleading. The Fundamental Law of Road Congestion, boiled down, says that average travel speed will stay fairly constant. Increasing road capacity allows more people to use it. People have a set tolerance for congestion. Increased capacity encourages more use, thus more immigration and economic growth.

Think of a grocery store. A huge one. It only has 1 checkout. How long will you wait in line before you shop somewhere else? 10 minutes? So that's the average wait, 10 minutes. Now the store puts in 3 extra checkouts. So is your checkout shorter? At first, then more people realize they can now check out in under 10 minutes. So the store gets more busy until people start having to wait 11 minutes, then levels off because no one wants to wait 11 minutes. Is the store a failure? Hell no, it just quadrupled its business!!! Your life is the same, but now more people can enjoy doing what you do.

So, according to The Fundamental Law of Road Congestion, if your goal is to eliminate congestion, forever, it's probably impossible. Does that mean doing nothing is the better choice? If commutes today are an hour, and commutes 30 years after building a new bridge are an hour, individually not much happened, but collectively, at least 3 times as many people can commute to work. The economy is larger and can support more growth.
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  #1676  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2016, 2:14 AM
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BTW, this Patrick Johnstone fella is also part of a group called "New Westminster Environmental Partners"... posting stuff about David Suzuki on their FB page. BTW, on April 22 - Earth Day - they will be serving up "Green Drinks". Come one... come all.
I can only wonder whether it's Kool-Aid being served. Rather appropriate, don't you think? Maybe two birds with one stone, and serve Suzuki's demand that we depopulate the planet?
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  #1677  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2016, 4:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Kisai View Post
What changed was the 2011 Tohoku earthquake and Tsunami. That's the same kind of earthquake expected here. Tsunami, not so much.

http://assets.ibc.ca/Documents/Studies/IBC-EQ-Study-Full.pdf (page 79)


So even such reports don't support the "doesn't meet seismic requirements", yet the Alex Fraser Bridge would suffer more damage.
I have just read your post. For the first time. Someone undoubtedly fricked up in that insurance bureau report that ya are referring to.

The AFB, when constructed back in the early 1980's, was also designed to withstand a seismic 8.5 event in terms of structural damage. Period. I personally reviewed the AFB engineering documents, years ago - ~15 years ago. And that seismic fact, stands out in my mind to this day.

Hell, why do ya think all bridge structures in Metro Vancouver are now cable-stayed? Sure, they are the most cost-effective bridge design... but they are also the most structurally sound design in terms of a major seismic event as well.

The GMT, designed in the mid-1950's, is not seismically designed for a major seismic event of 8.5. Not even a localized/shallow 6.5 - 7 event in terms of structural integrity.

But tell ya what. When the "big one" comes... and we both cross the south arm of the Fraser River concurrently... I will be the guy crossing the AFB and you will be the guy taking the GMT. Since ya take that IBC document as apparent gospel...just make sure that ya carry scuba gear in your trunk with quick access. 'Cause ya are gonna need same. Am not being facetious here - but very serious.

PS. Ya know those "steel band-aids" strapped across the roof sectionals in the GMT? As part of some GMT seismic upgrades roughly a decade ago? Well, that was just the beginning of seismic upgrades for the GMT. Further, additional, very expensive seismic upgrades of the GMT were planned as well... but dropped due to "value engineering". Just wayyyyy too expensive and complex to complete. And the GMT replacement was also anticipated at the time - about a decade ago as well.

BTW, these GMT seismic engineering reports from Buckland & Taylor are publicly available for perusal.

Last edited by Stingray2004; Apr 19, 2016 at 5:43 AM.
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  #1678  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2016, 3:35 PM
GMasterAres GMasterAres is offline
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More proof that article is a waste of space:

Quote:
Seriously. The Ministry is arguing that the route that now has 4 lanes will be congested on opening day if it has 8 lanes, but will allow free-flow until 2040 if it has 10 lanes. Chew on that for a bit. Just let the magical thinking sink in. Then remember, these are the guys who projected traffic demand for the Port Mann. Myth not busted.
His commentary on them arguing for 10 not 8 lanes. But he says the route now has 4 lanes. That is incorrect. The route during non-rush hour has 4 lanes (2 each direction). During rush hour the main rush direction is the equivalent of a 6 lane route though. 2 lanes + counterflow = 3 lanes in one direction.

That 3 lanes of direction is backed up daily to Oak Street bridge in the afternoon and you should see it this morning with issues on the Alex Fraser Bridge. Was quite insane.

So 8 lane bridge = 1 additional lane. Therefor the Government is quite correct (and I've pointed this out numerous times here) that 10 lanes is required if we want there to be any traffic relief during rush hour and during infrastructure issues such as accidents on alternate routes for anything more than 5 minutes.

Again I just wish people would argue with facts not opinion. Then again it is a blog post so it is purely opinion by design I guess.
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  #1679  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2016, 3:41 PM
GMasterAres GMasterAres is offline
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Originally Posted by BCPhil View Post
The problem with this article is it's also bullshit.

It's just a scattershot of ideas being fired at the target to see what sticks. He rants about traffic decreasing, then worries about traffic increasing. How it benefits no one, yet benefits the port.

He's treating it like he is a defense attorney and all he has to do to win is produce reasonable doubt, and to do that you attack it from many, even contradictory angles, because maybe one is just true enough to instill doubt.

I also question his facts he brings up. Right off the bat he cherry picks an article (from the Straight no less) that focuses on traffic change in 2008. You know, the 2008 during which the worst financial crisis since the great depression hit. It claims a 7.5% drop from 2004 to 2008. Yeah, no shit, I would wager that unemployment went up by a similar amount. Canadian GDP drop by 11%

Then he brings up the The Fundamental Law of Road Congestion. So, which is it: is traffic going to decrease or increase? The data he picks shows a decrease, but then he quotes a work that pretty much guarantees an increase.

And that increase is misleading. The Fundamental Law of Road Congestion, boiled down, says that average travel speed will stay fairly constant. Increasing road capacity allows more people to use it. People have a set tolerance for congestion. Increased capacity encourages more use, thus more immigration and economic growth.

Think of a grocery store. A huge one. It only has 1 checkout. How long will you wait in line before you shop somewhere else? 10 minutes? So that's the average wait, 10 minutes. Now the store puts in 3 extra checkouts. So is your checkout shorter? At first, then more people realize they can now check out in under 10 minutes. So the store gets more busy until people start having to wait 11 minutes, then levels off because no one wants to wait 11 minutes. Is the store a failure? Hell no, it just quadrupled its business!!! Your life is the same, but now more people can enjoy doing what you do.

So, according to The Fundamental Law of Road Congestion, if your goal is to eliminate congestion, forever, it's probably impossible. Does that mean doing nothing is the better choice? If commutes today are an hour, and commutes 30 years after building a new bridge are an hour, individually not much happened, but collectively, at least 3 times as many people can commute to work. The economy is larger and can support more growth.
And support 1 million more people.... I harp on this point, people keep ignoring the fact the region is growing. Even an Orangutan knows that when a city's population increases your infrastructure must increase to accommodate. I call it The Fundamental Law of No-shit-Sherlock.
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  #1680  
Old Posted Apr 19, 2016, 4:08 PM
Bdawe Bdawe is offline
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Originally Posted by jhausner View Post
And support 1 million more people.... I harp on this point, people keep ignoring the fact the region is growing. Even an Orangutan knows that when a city's population increases your infrastructure must increase to accommodate. I call it The Fundamental Law of No-shit-Sherlock.
No one but a handful of reactionary NIMBYs ignores the fact that the region is growing. They simply can see well enough that that growth should not be accommodated in cars

The Fundamental Law of No-Shit Sherlock does not imply that that infrastructure be built to serve single-occupancy vehicles, and the fundamental laws of geometry would imply that orienting your infrastructure towards space-inefficient single occupancy commuter is a bad idea as your city grows upward. The streets aren't getting any wider. The parking isn't getting any more abundant. A low-carbon future isn't getting any less necessary.

If we collectively want LA, we'll get LA, but it's a dumb, unsustainable, and inhuman idea.
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