Hwy 99 Fraser River Tunnel (George Massey Replacement) | Proposed

[s211]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Asking the Federal government to step in and do an environmental review, where they have no authority to do so, is just a revenge tactic. I don't want to go there.

And why an environmental review? "We don't know what the tolls are going to be, so..... the environment?"

Concur. "The environment" has become a catch-all for the BANANA crowd to resist anything with.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Actually, the bridge was part of the Liberal platform. It might not have been an announced 10 lane bridge, but the plan to replace the bridge was announced at the Union of B.C. Municipalities convention the year before the election. And public consultations began in November 2012, well before the May 2013 election. So I would say replacing the tunnel is part of their current mandate.

It isn't because they promised construction wouldn't start until after the following election.

I seriously doubt there will be shovels in the ground before May 2017.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

If this is the criteria we're using then the Pattullo Bridge should have been replaced 30 years ago. Instead the province kicked that can down the road, handed the reins over to TransLink, and there's still no replacement in place for a bridge that should have been torn down 30 years ago. In the meantime a tunnel that shows traffic volumes decreasing year-over-year and isn't at the end of its life gets a huge replacement.

This isn't "petty politics", this is the reality of how the Liberal government has shown a complete lack of vision for the region and how they've ignored the actual concerns of the entire region.

I agree other things should have been first. But I don't see that as a reason to derail everything else.

If a ship were sinking and the Captain said "women and children first" and some dick middle aged man got on a life boat and was noticed after it moved away, the captain wouldn't be like "Oh shit, hold the boats everyone, that guy screwed up this whole process. No one else leaves until that man comes back here and properly gives his spot to a woman or child so we can get everything back in the right order."

Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

If this is the criteria we're using then the Pattullo Bridge should have been replaced 30 years ago. Instead the province kicked that can down the road, handed the reins over to TransLink, and there's still no replacement in place for a bridge that should have been torn down 30 years ago. In the meantime a tunnel that shows traffic volumes decreasing year-over-year and isn't at the end of its life gets a huge replacement.

This isn't "petty politics", this is the reality of how the Liberal government has shown a complete lack of vision for the region and how they've ignored the actual concerns of the entire region.

I agree that the Pattullo Bridge and the Knight St. Bridge/Fwy should have been retained by MoTH back in 1999. But what is done is now done. I also agree that MoTI should have been responsible for the Golden Ears Bridge/Way. Translink should be responsible for transit. Period.

That said, avg. traffic speed through the GMT has been reduced considerably over the past 1 - 2 decades. I find the right-lane travels at 40-50 km hr while one is lucky to achieve 60 km/hr in the left-lane. And that's with a posted speed limit of 80 km/hr. Right there that should tell someone that GMT traffic exceeds capacity. And commercial rig traffic has increased exponentially through there over the past couple of decades.

The GMT is also sub-standard in terms of both design and safety - irrespective of capacity. And I will repeat again that both the GMT and Pattullo would likely suffer catastrophic collapse with a localized, shallow quake in the 6 - 7 range.

I also notice that ya are from New Westminster. New West has been bickering with Coquitlam over the United Blvd. for decades. And New West has also been bickering with Surrey only wanting 4-lanes on a Pattullo replacement structure v. 6 lanes wanted by Surrey (although I understand that that has now been resolved).

I suggest that Surrey and Coquitlam's interests adhere more to the region's than New West's parochial attitudes.

[Infrequent Poster]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

If this is the criteria we're using then the Pattullo Bridge should have been replaced 30 years ago. Instead the province kicked that can down the road, handed the reins over to TransLink, and there's still no replacement in place for a bridge that should have been torn down 30 years ago. In the meantime a tunnel that shows traffic volumes decreasing year-over-year and isn't at the end of its life gets a huge replacement.

This isn't "petty politics", this is the reality of how the Liberal government has shown a complete lack of vision for the region and how they've ignored the actual concerns of the entire region.

I feel that is kind of a disingenuous argument. As (to me anyways) its pretty clear people are skipping the parking lot at the tunnel to take the afb. The increase in volume over the alex fraser seems to support this. https://engage.gov.bc.ca/masseytunnel/files/2015/12/Traffic-Data-Overview-2015.pdf

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Infrequent Poster

I feel that is kind of a disingenuous argument. As (to me anyways) its pretty clear people are skipping the parking lot at the tunnel to take the afb. The increase in volume over the alex fraser seems to support this. https://engage.gov.bc.ca/masseytunnel/files/2015/12/Traffic-Data-Overview-2015.pdf

The last graph in that report is very interesting. Volumes on the PMB are higher, significantly, during peak hours peak direction than in 2012. Especially Westbound in the AM, by almost 2000 cars/hour (because it used to be only 2 lanes WB). And it increases every year as more people realize the time savings = money savings. But it lags behind the rest of the day because people are still dodging the toll when other routes aren't congested.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

The last graph in that report is very interesting. Volumes on the PMB are higher, significantly, during peak hours peak direction than in 2012. Especially Westbound in the AM, by almost 2000 cars/hour (because it used to be only 2 lanes WB). And it increases every year as more people realize the time savings = money savings. But it lags behind the rest of the day because people are still dodging the toll when other routes aren't congested.

I have a co-worker who was forced to take the PMB back home to Coquitlam last week due to a shutdown on the Patullo and insanity through New Westminster. Was the first time since the PMB actually opened and his comment to me the next say was "Wow it was so fast using the SFPR and PMB. Took me 25 minutes less time ot get home...."

Don't know about you but 25 minutes to me is worth $3. But you're spot on that there does seem to be a breaking point where the "go around" for tolls becomes just too ridiculous that they bite the bullet and cross the PMB. When the Patullo is replaced with a toll bridge that will get just as much pronounced as the AFB will be the only non-tolled crossing and will effectively be a parking lot.

It is 1 of 3 non-tolled crossings now and is often already a parking lot.

To other posters above:

As for the tunnel traffic going down, that's just wrong. The stats may sort of look as though they are telling you that but my eyes the past 5 years has seen longer and longer lines and longer and longer waits through the tunnel. it is simple physics, it has come to a point now where you simply can't put any more vehicles through the tunnel and they slowed so much that it appears as though less cars get through.

That is because less cars DO get through because it takes longer and they line up further. That doesn't though mean the DEMAND is lower. The demand for the tunnel is far greater today than it was 5 years ago.

So people can't go crazy over the stats. If you conclude from the stats that the demand is going down and the traffic is reducing, you're just insane and have missed the plot that is reality. Get in your car and spend a week every rush hour trying to get through the tunnel and you'll know very quickly the demand and delays are very very real.

Finally, to bat home the above reality, there are times now (and I am not kidding) that from Ladner BC to Bridgeport in Richmond (16.5 KM) it takes LONGER if you go through the tunnel North Bound during rush hour than if you actually went south on HWY99, took HWY91 north, then the East-West connector back to HWY99 then went to Bridgeport.

That means driving 41KM half of which in the opposite direction is faster than driving 16.5KM taking the logical way. That's how bad the tunnel is. Can take you 45 minutes to get through it which in no traffic takes 2 minutes.

That's reality and the reality those statistics don't truly detail.

[whatnext]

I surprised nobody mentioned that the BC Libs are a little miffed there was absolutely no mention of funds for the Massey Bridge in the federal budget. It seems pretty clear new highway infrastructure isn't a federal priority.

[osirisboy]

Wasn't the funding for that already in place?

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I surprised nobody mentioned that the BC Libs are a little miffed there was absolutely no mention of funds for the Massey Bridge in the federal budget. It seems pretty clear new highway infrastructure isn't a federal priority.

That and the transit funding really doesn't seem to be too much greater than what was already in place by the Conservatives.

Makes it that much more annoying that Montreal's largest bridge is getting replaced (more expensive than this project) 100% under the feds

On the plus side a minor chunk of change (86 million I think) is going towards the continuation of the twining of highway 1 west from the Alberta border through Yoho Park (Guessing that will get us a few kms of twinned highway??). Would have been better the get the omney for the final phase of the Kicking Horse project, but the would have involved some real money.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

That and the transit funding really doesn't seem to be too much greater than what was already in place by the Conservatives.

Makes it that much more annoying that Montreal's largest bridge is getting replaced (more expensive than this project) 100% under the feds

On the plus side a minor chunk of change (86 million I think) is going towards the continuation of the twining of highway 1 west from the Alberta border through Yoho Park (Guessing that will get us a few kms of twinned highway??). Would have been better the get the omney for the final phase of the Kicking Horse project, but the would have involved some real money.

Kicking Horse is pretty much done right up to the boundary of the Yoho Park, except for the hardest part which need more than $400 million to do. So it's probably not for that.

Once the highway enters Yoho from Kicking Horse, it drops down to 2 lanes immediately. And the terrain from there to Field isn't crazy. There are already some passing lanes, so the feds could easily widen much of that stretch.

I think the province can handle the GMB on it's own, but they can't touch the roads in the parks, and horrible roads they are. You drive through Banff and it's a nice freeway, then the second you enter BC and it is like a 3rd world country.

GMB is needed, but 4 lane-ing Vancouver <-> Calgary is a national urgency and will save many lives.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

You drive through Banff and it's a nice freeway, then the second you enter BC and it is like a 3rd world country.

Well as you mentioned, the BC terrain is a lot more challenging. The Bow Valley might as well be prairie compared to the Kicking Horse canyon. And while the Big Hill down to Field has been largely tamed, it wasn't cheap to do.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

That and the transit funding really doesn't seem to be too much greater than what was already in place by the Conservatives.

Makes it that much more annoying that Montreal's largest bridge is getting replaced (more expensive than this project) 100% under the feds

On the plus side a minor chunk of change (86 million I think) is going towards the continuation of the twining of highway 1 west from the Alberta border through Yoho Park (Guessing that will get us a few kms of twinned highway??). Would have been better the get the omney for the final phase of the Kicking Horse project, but the would have involved some real money.

Its why I wish there was a BC separatist party, and I am certainly not sarcastic. As usual BC got short changed, and by allot. Very little is actually going to our province, even though BC is the third most populous province in this country.

The fact that the George Massey bridge is of national importance, linking the nations largest ports and its supporting infrastructure, and has received no federal funding is pretty messed up. Montreal's bridge on the other hand is of no national importance. A strong BC separatist party, just think how much better of we would be.

[Stingray2004]

Originally Posted by whatnext

I surprised nobody mentioned that the BC Libs are a little miffed there was absolutely no mention of funds for the Massey Bridge in the federal budget. It seems pretty clear new highway infrastructure isn't a federal priority.

That's not how federal infrastructure funding works though. To wit, dollars allocated from the Building Canada Fund were jointly agreed to by the province/feds over previous years. Not during budget time... but outside that "bubble".

In terms of the actual federal budget, BC's reaction as succinctly put by Van Sun columnist Vaughn Palmer:

Vaughn Palmer: Victoria Cheers New Federal Budget

BY Vaughn Palmer, Vancouver Sun, March 23, 2016

VICTORIA — The B.C. Liberal reaction to the first budget from the new federal government came down to a single word: “delighted.”

....

The note of grace was warranted. Reading through the details reported in the Vancouver Sun by my colleague Peter O’Neil, I couldn’t recall a federal budget with so many tailored-for-B.C. items

“We in British Columbia are delighted with the budget today,” said Fassbender, who, with the premier on spring break and the finance minister out of the country, was delegated to give the B.C. government response. “We see the federal government being prepared to invest significantly here in British Columbia.”

He noted how some of the broader funding commitments could benefit the province disproportionately.

....

http://www.vancouversun.com/news/vaughn+...dget/11805107/story.html#ixzz43v7WTvJsan

Just yesterday, the federal infrastructure minister was in BC and alluded to future federal funds for the GMB project as well as others:

Ottawa to consider funds for George Massey Tunnel replacement
IAN BAILEY
RICHMOND, B.C. — The Globe and Mail
Published Thursday, Mar. 24, 2016 9:57PM EDT


Ottawa will consider whether to offer financial support for a proposed $3.5-billion bridge to replace the George Massey Tunnel.

Mr. Sohi said there was money left in the Building Canada fund of the former government, which could be used to help pay for the bridge. That fund was established under a 2007 plan to finance projects from 2007 to 2014.

Todd Stone, B.C.’s Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure, and Peter Fassbender, the minister responsible for TransLink, have been talking to various federal ministers about provincial transportation priorities, including the replacement for the Massey tunnel.

Mr. Sohi said the federal government remains committed to financing its share of a proposed 27-kilometre light-rail system in Surrey and Vancouver’s proposed new five-kilometre subway.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/brit...ssey-tunnel-replacement/article29390531/

In any event, fed funds won't be required for the new GMB until the 2018 fiscal year at the earliest. Remember, that no fed funds are in the budget for the Broadway line either, but that doesn't mean the feds will not fund same down the road. And the good news on that front is that the feds have upped their proportion from 33% to 50%.

Again, all previous federal infrastructure funds have come through the Building Canada Fund, which allocation has never been broken down specifically within a federal budget AFAIK.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Makes it that much more annoying that Montreal's largest bridge is getting replaced (more expensive than this project) 100% under the feds

The Champlain Bridge is owned by the federal government (well, a federal crown corporation), carries about twice as much traffic as the Massey Tunnel, and is about twice as long as the proposed Massey Bridge (7.4km vs 3.3km). It also deteriorates a lot faster than any of our infrastructure out here because of the extreme weather conditions, and the sheer amount of salt used to de-ice the roads out there.

These two crossings are really apples and oranges. The Champlain Bridge is bigger and needs to adhere to different standards than those we have out here, so of course it's going to be more expensive. And it's completely owned by the federal government so they should pay for it.

[Jebby]

What's absolutely ridiculous is that the new Champlain Bridge won't be tolled. Just goes to show how the federal Liberals are going to run the country into the ground. Unbelievably fiscally irresponsible.

[s211]

Originally Posted by Jebby

What's absolutely ridiculous is that the new Champlain Bridge won't be tolled. Just goes to show how the federal Liberals are going to run the country into the ground. Unbelievably fiscally irresponsible.

And why in the first place is the bridge a ward of the federal government?

How can I get one of those? Oh wait...

[Plafuldog]

Originally Posted by Jebby

What's absolutely ridiculous is that the new Champlain Bridge won't be tolled. Just goes to show how the federal Liberals are going to run the country into the ground. Unbelievably fiscally irresponsible.

The Conservatives made that call ages ago, not the Liberals....

[s211]

Originally Posted by Plafuldog

The Conservatives made that call ages ago, not the Liberals....

I'd have to think that the Rhinos could be in power and we'd still get the same outcome. There isn't a political party out there with the balls to level QC's playing field with the rest of confederation.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

The Champlain Bridge is owned by the federal government (well, a federal crown corporation), carries about twice as much traffic as the Massey Tunnel, and is about twice as long as the proposed Massey Bridge (7.4km vs 3.3km). It also deteriorates a lot faster than any of our infrastructure out here because of the extreme weather conditions, and the sheer amount of salt used to de-ice the roads out there.

These two crossings are really apples and oranges. The Champlain Bridge is bigger and needs to adhere to different standards than those we have out here, so of course it's going to be more expensive. And it's completely owned by the federal government so they should pay for it.

Yeah, I know that, but it still doesn't make it right or fare that the federal government is footing the entire bill with no tolls in the end (tolls were proposed at first but the people n Montreal then had a fit by the idea).

Just a kick in the teeth that none of our major crossings get such a sweet deal.