Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[aberdeen5698]

(duplicate post, please ignore)

[aberdeen5698]

(sorry, web site was being obstinate, please ignore this one too...)

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by waves

The new 50% funding model is great but $370 million is no where near the amount we need for either Broadway or Surrey.

You're right and I think the $370 is just an amount outside of major capital projects.

I also wouldn't hold my breath on the Provincial Government doing more than 1/3. However, with the Federal Government providing 1/2, this means the municipalities or Translink would only need to provide 1/6 or $1.25 Billion. If they borrowed and repaid this amount over a period of 30 years, you are looking at a cost of about $50 million per year, which is not that much (Translink's annual budget is $1.4 Billion). In fact, it could be paid for by this small cash infusion if we were to assume it would continue beyond the 5 years.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

You're right and I think the $370 is just an amount outside of major capital projects.

I also wouldn't hold my breath on the Provincial Government doing more than 1/3. However, with the Federal Government providing 1/2, this means the municipalities or Translink would only need to provide 1/6 or $1.25 Billion. If they borrowed and repaid this amount over a period of 30 years, you are looking at a cost of about $50 million per year, which is not that much (Translink's annual budget is $1.4 Billion). In fact, it could be paid for by this small cash infusion if we were to assume it would continue beyond the 5 years.

Actually, now the province will reduce its commitment to 25%. The province is all about going halfers with the city.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

The province is all about going halfers with the city.

...except when it comes to building roads and bridges.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

...except when it comes to building roads and bridges.

...except the Pattullo Bridge because obviously that's transit-related.

[waves]

Having bridges owned in Metro Vancouver by four plus separate jurisdictions makes no practical sense. They should be passed over completely to either Translink or Metro Vancouver.

If this were the case, then we would be replacing the impending failure, Patullo Bridge, before the GMT.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Aroundtheworld

You're right and I think the $370 is just an amount outside of major capital projects.

Looks like you're right - might be a good thing if LRT in Surrey is rethought:

PM says Metro Vancouver’s big ticket transit projects not ready to roll

Vancouver, BC, Canada / News Talk 980 CKNW
Shane Woodford
Posted: March 23, 2016 09:31 am
Last Updated: March 23, 2016 10:04 am

The Prime Minister offered a simple explanation for why big ticket transit and transportation projects in Metro Vancouver didn’t get funding in yesterday’s budget.

Justin Trudeau, appearing on Global BC, said those projects weren’t ready to be built yet.

“Well it is just a recognition that on the biggest projects, whether we talk about LRT out to Surrey or improving the investments into the Broadway line for example, these are things that aren’t ready to get built starting next week.”

Trudeau says those projects need to get done, but they need to be done right.
“There is going to need to be the time taken to move on this rapidly so people can get it but to be done right. That is just a recognition of the fact that we need to be responsible about our spending, about our investments, to make sure that they are going to have the best possible impact on Canadians and people in the lower mainland.”

The budget funnels 370-million-dollars for transit projects in Metro Vancouver, which will go to more buses and SkyTrain upgrades.

http://www.cknw.com/2016/03/23/pm-says-m...cket-transit-projects-not-ready-to-roll/

Mayors, province already at odds over new transit funding formula

Vancouver, BC, Canada / News Talk 980 CKNW
Shane Woodford
Posted: March 22, 2016 05:21 pm
Last Updated: March 22, 2016 06:31 pm

...

Not a cent more

But B.C.’s minister responsible for TransLink says the mayor of Vancouver has it wrong and the province won’t be picking up a cent more of its third share for transit projects.

Peter Fassbender was asked if the mayors are in talks with the province over increasing its share…

“No.”

Bare bones, Fassbender says the region is going to have to find a way to pay for its 17% of the total bill.

“That is correct. We need to work with them and our commitment is we are going to work with them. So from that perspective we are a willing partner in sitting down and looking at how the region can come up with its share.”

“I have been very clear with mayor Robertson and other mayors that the province’s one-third, that has been on the table for a few years now, continues to be that. Looking to the long term I know that mayor Robertson and some of the other mayors have suggested that, that change is something they would like. That does not mean that it is a commitment from the Province of British Columbia at all.”

He also says there is at the moment no flexibility over the legislated requirement that any new funding model requires a referendum.
...

http://www.cknw.com/2016/03/22/mayors-province-already-clashing-over-new-transit-funding-formula/

[trofirhen]

So, the Vancouver Broadway rrt line isn't a big enough priority to get funded yet? On the most congested bus route in North America? What is fundworthy, in that case?
Justin, we thought we knew you.

[AMTDGT]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

So, the Vancouver Broadway rrt line isn't a big enough priority to get funded yet? On the most congested bus route in North America? What is fundworthy, in that case?
Justin, we thought we knew you.

You miss the point

1. This is a Trudeau
2. This isn't Quebec
3. This isn't Toronto
4. History repeats itself

[Aroundtheworld]

This actually looks not too bad. It doesn't seem the Province will be reducing their one third. The only thing that seems to be stopping things is Translink/the Mayors coming up with the 1/6th. Like I mentioned earlier spread over 30 years, this would not costs that much (~$50 M per year).

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by AMTDGT

You miss the point

1. This is a Trudeau
2. This isn't Quebec
3. This isn't Toronto
4. History repeats itself

In fact, ALL those points came to mind, but I didn't want to appear like a whining Westerner. But hey, yeah, if that makes me a whining Westerner, so be it !! BC screwed again!

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

In fact, ALL those points came to mind, but I didn't want to appear like a whining Westerner. But hey, yeah, if that makes me a whining Westerner, so be it !! BC screwed again!

BC screwed itself. It hasn't done due diligence on getting these projects ready to go.

[Bdawe]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

In fact, ALL those points came to mind, but I didn't want to appear like a whining Westerner. But hey, yeah, if that makes me a whining Westerner, so be it !! BC screwed again!

How have we been screwed? It's a reasonable explanation - Ottawa isn't going to commit to anything until BC has it's proposals together, and what the proposals in Vancouver and Surrey are missing is the (now even less) local funding. It's not 'Quebec' or the 'Laurentian Establishment' that makes Victoria stand athwart the big transit projects in Metro Vancouver with their ridiculous demands for a discriminatory referendum. That is all on us and our elected government.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

BC screwed itself. It hasn't done due diligence on getting these projects ready to go.

There have been a number of cost-benefit analysis' done, and multiple options proposed for the Broadway Line. Station locations have been identified, technology and routing is either self-evident or planned. What more would be required?

[catchblue22]

If we had our plan complete, we'd be getting funding right now. The Broadway Skytrain is not a ready for "shovels in ground" yet. I suspect this will happen within a couple of years.

That said, I don't think we realize how regressive our BC provincial government is. To bring this home, realize that Christy Clark just appointed as leader of the BC Climate Change Plan, a former director of the Fraser Institute (a right wing think tank that has long opposed any real action on climate change). This government has demonstrated that it is devoted to freeways and sprawl, and that it is at best ambivalent about transit.

[Metro-One]

Broadway is definitely more ready than the Surrey projects, so it better go ahead first. Is there any reason design / planning wise why it can't be ready by the end of this year (how long does detailed design take from where we are now?)

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Broadway is definitely more ready than the Surrey projects, so it better go ahead first. Is there any reason design / planning wise why it can't be ready by the end of this year (how long does detailed design take from where we are now?)

If detailed design were to be ready by the end of the year, they would need to start now. They could use some of the $370 M to start engineering work.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

Apparently a lot of the reason why US cities go with LRT & other non-grade separated systems is due to the federal government's funding.

A grade separated system has a higher threshold in terms of funding so ridership must be higher for grade separation than non-grade separation. I don't know the inns and outs but as an example............if an at grade LRT was expecting 30,000 passengers a day it might get funding but a grade separated system with 30,000 passengers wouldn't.

The really weird thing is that if both those systems of 30k/day were to cost the same amount of money, it wouldn't matter..........the LRT would get funding but the Metro/subway system wouldn't.

I don't think it is that simple. The US feds are funding and have funded metro. They are funding expansion of BART and the construction in Honolulu, as well as recently opened extensions in Washington DC, Chicago, and Boston. They funded the metro in San Juan to the tune of $2.2 billion for 17km, and it gets less than 45,000 riders a day.

I think the main thing the feds look for is a state/local commitment to fund the operations of the line long term via ballot measure. It seems to be the common theme between all the cities that get federal funding: they've passed a ballot measure guaranteeing continued long term funding usually via a special tax levy. As long as the locals are committed to keep paying for running it, and subsidizing any possible shortfalls in fare revenue, the feds will help fund it.

Kind of the same situation as here. If we had a commitment to funding on our (Translink) side available, we would have had that money this week.

[bardak]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

There have been a number of cost-benefit analysis' done, and multiple options proposed for the Broadway Line. Station locations have been identified, technology and routing is either self-evident or planned. What more would be required?

Ottawa wants the money to go to projects that can be started ASAP and Victoria has not been willing to ensure that the other 50% of the funding will be ready to go (Whether that be the province covering the full 50% or compromising with the mayors). This is besides the point that the current round of funding is not enough to start the major projects. We will have to try and get our house in order for the next round of funding in a couple years.