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  #161  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2015, 5:59 AM
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Originally Posted by urbanlife View Post
Has anything changed? The last thing I saw on this, they were basically putting in new intersections that would have timed lights to let buses go first, but the buses were still mostly sharing the road with cars.
New intersections and timed lights, yes. But there's also supposed to be (and the proposal has always been since they decided to do BRT) dedicated ROW for most of its length, like Eugene's EMX. That hasn't changed. There will be a couple of spots (like west of 39th/Chavez and the 82nd Ave crossover) that will likely be mixed traffic, but the goal is to get most of the P/D line in its own ROW. Otherwise, there's no point in doing anything at all except buy a bunch of new buses.
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  #162  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2015, 8:51 AM
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Originally Posted by 65MAX View Post
west of 39th/Chavez
i.e. where it's most needed.
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  #163  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2015, 7:10 PM
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i.e. where it's most needed.
Exactly. I'm really hoping they spend a little extra to get the dedicated ROW west of 39th/Chavez because that is the choke point that'll kill the reliability that the line is supposed to provide.
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  #164  
Old Posted Nov 27, 2015, 7:25 PM
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The primary reason for this project taking so long appears to be the endless public process that the City and Metro seem to put everything through. Last I heard, the City is really, really concerned about increasing stop spacing for the 1-3% of riders that make short trips. The City, as usual, focuses all their attention on a very small minority and loses sight of the big picture. This has resulted in watered-down bike corridor projects, and will likely happen here as well. I'm all for asking for public comments and suggestions and implementing them where they make sense, but the City has to learn that they can't make everyone happy all the time.
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  #165  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2016, 8:36 PM
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Powell-Division Transit Project in-depth: Bike lanes and bus lanes both unlikely on 82nd



Should a new high-capacity express bus line through Southeast Portland run on the most important street in Southeast Portland, or 30 blocks away?

The question seems odd. But as Metro and TriMet ask the region whether the new “bus rapid transit” line they’re planning should run on half a mile of 82nd Avenue, here’s part of the subtext: In order to get permission to run the bus line on 82nd Avenue, project planners have agreed not to aspire to do anything for biking, walking or transit on 82nd that might significantly reduce the number or capacity of cars there.

In fact, even if the highest-quality version of the project currently being considered were built, buses there are projected to travel slightly slower in 2035 than they do now. Rush-hour travel times would rise to about four to five minutes for the half-mile stretch, up from about three minutes during the afternoon peak today.
...continues at BikePortland.
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  #166  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2016, 2:22 AM
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Apparently, the project in its current form is dead, and its back to the drawing board... why? the proposed BRT line will be slower than existing service!

Quote:
On Jan. 20, we reported that Metro, TriMet and the Oregon Department of Transportation were not considering a dedicated bus lane on 82nd Avenue, and that as a result the proposed “bus rapid transit” would actually travel more slowly there in 2035 than the #72 bus does today.

The next day, TriMet staff contacted Metro staff to warn them that this was also the case for the full length of the project.
The story continues with alternatives at bikeportland

Please take note Southwest Corridor Steering Committee of the political failures of BRT
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  #167  
Old Posted Mar 20, 2016, 3:04 PM
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Apparently, the project in its current form is dead, and its back to the drawing board... why? the proposed BRT line will be slower than existing service!


The story continues with alternatives at bikeportland

Please take note Southwest Corridor Steering Committee of the political failures of BRT
First, it is a very good indicator that they looked at data and reported to the public it would be slower than the current buses. Now it will be even more telling if they continue on the path of a predetermined outcome based on the definition of the corridor, or if they finally take into consideration the effects of changing not simply one narrow, linear and arbitrary route, but inner and outer SE Portland itself.

Given their traditional approach, the corridor was defined first and objectives were made from it. The SW corridor was given a broad swath of land, indicating that they wanted to have an effect on many different neighborhoods (and essentially allowing the possibility of LRT). Powell-Division had a relatively skinny corridor, omitting any potential improvements, however small, that might lie outside the border.

The planning committee essentially precluded any consideration of designs other than BRT, which as we now know (perhaps knew then) won't make the 4 and 9 any faster. But if they had considered integrating the current transit system in their analysis, a lot of other possibilities might have happened.

The corridor as defined seems benign until you consider other designs. I understand the project was given a financial limit, and they were essentially trying to get a federal funding match for new busses. But this has always appeared very superficial and short-sighted.

Once you considered a MAX for SOME of the corridor, the effects multiply. A station at 39th/Powell creates a salient and predictable walkable connection to Division, a station at 50th integrates the 14 and 71, making it more likely these buses will be used. Right now only the diehard transit users tend to transfer buses, but they are that much more likely to walk to a MAX station or use a connecting bus if it's FASTER than driving.

Now imagine a station at 82nd and I-205. Riders from East Pland and Gresham have an impetus to transfer (because a MAX is faster and more reliable) from the 4, 9, 10 17, 14, 72. TWO new MAX lines, one from Clackamas and one from Gresham, can travel the corridor having effects from across the entire East side of the Portland metro area, lessoning the load on the Steel Br, making the trip from Clackamas 10 minutes faster, giving Gresham riders the option of two ways into the city, instantly making foster-powell, 82nd, and lents "inner neighborhoods" etc. Compare the development near Interstate and near Powell.

There is no getting around the most basic problem: traffic on inner Powell. No bus however vast and "express" can avoid being just a bus. The corridor itself needs to be redefined, or the project needs to admit it is there to create two express routes on the 4 and 9 (not BRT), and then just do it.
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  #168  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2016, 12:19 AM
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It needs to be an elevated rail line like the Skytrain in Vancouver.

The other options are:

* downsize SE Powell to 2 lanes for surface BRT or MAX
* subway for MAX - very expensive (although perhaps more acceptable to NIMBYs)
* bus stuck in traffic (the situation today)

Also, they already have a new MAX bridge that serves SE with its own right of way. It would almost be trivial to simply extend that along SE Powell to outer SE.
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  #169  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2016, 2:49 AM
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Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
It needs to be an elevated rail line like the Skytrain in Vancouver.
No kidding. It's not even *that* far: from 17th to 39th is only 22 blocks. The harbor way elevated structure is about 7 blocks long and it was built without any controversy (that I know of).
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  #170  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2016, 3:07 AM
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Originally Posted by zilfondel View Post
It needs to be an elevated rail line like the Skytrain in Vancouver.

The other options are:

* downsize SE Powell to 2 lanes for surface BRT or MAX
* subway for MAX - very expensive (although perhaps more acceptable to NIMBYs)
* bus stuck in traffic (the situation today)

Also, they already have a new MAX bridge that serves SE with its own right of way. It would almost be trivial to simply extend that along SE Powell to outer SE.
Exactly, we should really be focusing on expanding our light rail system. I was up in Seattle this weekend to ride the opening of the University extention and I have to say, their light rail subway line is pretty cool. I actually wouldn't mind seeing some subway tunneling in Portland, but at the same time, just expanding the current system and running trains more frequently would be a step in the right direction.
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  #171  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2016, 5:15 PM
zilfondel zilfondel is offline
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Originally Posted by bvpcvm View Post
No kidding. It's not even *that* far: from 17th to 39th is only 22 blocks. The harbor way elevated structure is about 7 blocks long and it was built without any controversy (that I know of).
I mean all the way to Gresham.
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  #172  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2016, 6:25 PM
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I mean all the way to Gresham.
Does anyone really think an elevated structure down the middle of Powell will be warmly accepted by the neighborhood?
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  #173  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2016, 7:17 PM
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Does anyone really think an elevated structure down the middle of Powell will be warmly accepted by the neighborhood?
This is a good question. I don't think anyone has a good answer to this until some sort of outreach is done. As an alternative, is the half-mile of tunnel that is required for any feasible line up Powell IMO. This tunnel along with street improvements (I imagine similar to outer Burnside or N Interstate) would go a long way to redesign Powell as a 25 mph city street, and not the current death magnet it is under ODOT.
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  #174  
Old Posted Mar 21, 2016, 11:55 PM
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I'm really glad that they're deep sixing the "BRT", because without its own dedicated ROW, this was doomed to failure from the start. I think just enhancing the existing 4 and 9 is really the only feasible option. If, in the future, they want to get serious about a dedicated ROW along inner Powell, that would be great, but I think the only way to do that (without a cut and cover tunnel) is with an aerial structure to at least 52nd Ave. And if they do invest in that kind of infrastructure, then they might as well make it a MAX connection to the Green line.
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  #175  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 6:48 AM
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Interestingly, Vancouver BC is currently deep in planning for their second subway - the Broadway corridor to UBC, expected to open in 2020.
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  #176  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by 65MAX View Post
I'm really glad that they're deep sixing the "BRT", because without its own dedicated ROW, this was doomed to failure from the start. I think just enhancing the existing 4 and 9 is really the only feasible option. If, in the future, they want to get serious about a dedicated ROW along inner Powell, that would be great, but I think the only way to do that (without a cut and cover tunnel) is with an aerial structure to at least 52nd Ave. And if they do invest in that kind of infrastructure, then they might as well make it a MAX connection to the Green line.
Does anyone really believe that an aerial structure through southeast Portland neighborhoods is going to go over well with the residents there? I don't think so.
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  #177  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 6:34 PM
maccoinnich maccoinnich is offline
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Does anyone really believe that an aerial structure through southeast Portland neighborhoods is going to go over well with the residents there? I don't think so.
If anyone was to propose an elevated structure on inner Burnside, Belmont, Stark, Hawthorne or Division it would no doubt run into a huge amount of opposition. But Powell? Maybe not.
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  #178  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 9:05 PM
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Does anyone really believe that an aerial structure through southeast Portland neighborhoods is going to go over well with the residents there? I don't think so.
Powell Blvd is a major highway with very little housing, lined almost exclusively with strip malls and parking lots (and Cleveland HS and a couple of major parks) from 17th to 52nd. It's not a residential "neighborhood" street like Belmont or Division. If MAX was proposed for that elevated structure, the neighbors nearby would be very supportive. In fact, there was a preference for light rail from the neighbors at the start of the P/D discussion, but it was obvious Metro wanted something done on the cheap and as quickly as possible. That didn't turn out so well. If they're not willing to invest in an exclusive ROW, then they might as well do nothing. Just buy more buses and call it a day.
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  #179  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 9:08 PM
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If anyone was to propose an elevated structure on inner Burnside, Belmont, Stark, Hawthorne or Division it would no doubt run into a huge amount of opposition. But Powell? Maybe not.
Good point. Not too many people really want to live on Inner Powell. And if an elevated structure for 15-20 blocks happens to make a safe median, it might actually make it safer. This was ODOT's intention... eventually.

Another option would be to cut and cover for a few blocks, putting the highway underground at the hill around Cleveland High, and a local access only road and LRT on top. This would make a new neighborhood.
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  #180  
Old Posted Mar 22, 2016, 9:30 PM
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Interestingly, Vancouver BC is currently deep in planning for their second subway - the Broadway corridor to UBC, expected to open in 2020.
Preliminary planning, yes. But they're nowhere near starting construction on this and in fact, funding for this project was just voted down almost 2-1 and there is no apparent way forward without the $$$ to proceed. Opening in 4 years seems highly unlikely. The Broadway Subway is still their #1 transit priority though, so I have no doubt it'll eventually be built.
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