Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[Dundas]

The city of Ottawa is building the LRT for its own interest and that savours the suburbs.

The city wants to :
-Save money,
-Get buses out of downtown, and reduce the fleet. (bad idea)
-Make people want to take transit again. taking the train is cool, the bus is lame.
-Get cars off the Queensway/174.
-Keep people downtown after they finish work. This is people who live in the suburbs. Right now people finish work and rush to catch their Express bus back to Orleans, Kanata. God forbids they miss it! No time for a beer with coworkers, no time for shopping, no time for anything. Full sprint for the express bus. Now once a train is running every 3mins the city hopes suburbanites will stay longer downtown after hours. This is why downtown is dead after 6pm.

[SF Thomas]

Originally Posted by Kitchissippi

I walk 1 km to the grocery store almost every other day, same to do banking. These kinds of distances are pretty normal in an urban lifestyle. People who live car-less in downtown Montreal, Toronto or Manhattan end up walking up to 10 kilometres a day, it's keeps one healthy. Do people complain about the 1.5 km takes to walk through IKEA? Ah, but we live in a strange world where people drive to the gym to use a treadmill.

Have to agree 800m isn't a big deal for me to walk either. I'm still a student and don't have a car, so I regularly walk that much to go shopping or get to other locations after a bus ride. I was already walking that far when I was 12 if I wanted to get ice cream from the corner store.

Unless someone is around 80+ I really don't find walking under 1km for rapid transit a big deal.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by acottawa

Centretown 21,536
Centretown West 12,022
Civic Hospital 3,656
Downtown 4,123
The Glebe 11,184
Hintonburg-Mechanicsville 9,041
LeBreton Flats 373
Lindenlea 1,701
Lower Town-ByWard Market 12,183
New Edinburgh 3,610
Ottawa East 5,110
Ottawa South-Rideau Gardens 8,462
Sandy Hill 12,451
Vanier 17,632
Westboro Village-Ottawa West 8,135


That's 130k, which is about 15% of the city population (877k).

BTW, that's 61% of urban residents with a nearby rapid transit station, even if it is inconveniently oriented.

Rideau-Vanier (Ward 12) 50,500
Rideau-Rockcliffe (Ward 13) 49,900
Somerset (Ward 14) 48,900
Kitchissippi (Ward 15) 41,700
Capital (Ward 17) 38,300

Total: 229,300

Population of Ottawa: 1,017,200

That's 23% in what I would call the older, urban city*, for 77% — not 80-90% — being in the suburbs.



* Not quite a perfect match, but close enough: there are a few suburban neighbourhoods in those wards, but also a few more urban-y areas in the other, predominantly suburban wards, so it roughly balances out.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Well Baselines does certainly need something done yesterday. The 118 is usually no where near the schedule and often packed to the gills.

Ditto the 12.

The problem could be ameliorated on both routes if OCTranspo would commit to an artic-guaranteed service, but they won't: they insist on sending 40-footers on too many runs, and ignore complaints about overcrowding and poor schedule adherence or bunching.

If you aren't a rider of an express bus in the suburbs, you do not count. You simply do not count.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by ac888yow

With the exception of the Rideau-Montreal corridor needing a solution, isn't the prevailing argument (lack of inner-city service / neighborhood connectivity) in here a bit overblown?

When Phase 1 and especially Phase 2 are completed, there will be LRT/O-Train service connecting all of the following neighborhoods: CBD, By-Ward Market/Rideau Centre, Sandy Hill/UOttawa, Preston/Little Italy, Lebreton, Westboro, West Wellington/Hintonburg, etc. These are all either well established or up-and-coming neighborhoods where people (will) want to go/be. The train station will also be connected, as will the airport if we don't fcuk that up. Employment nodes will also be connected, both to each other and to these neighborhoods.

Granted the placement of many stations is el-cheapo, but whatever happened to the notion that development will be spawned (already planned or proposed in many cases) around these stations?

Huh?

Those stations are still far to inconveniently located to constitute real improvement to transit within the old city. They are almost all on the edges. And given Ottawa's track record, I have little optimism that redevelopment will be truly transit-oriented (development NEAR transit is not the same as ORIENTED to it), nor integrated with surrounding older urban fabric.

Take a trip from Sandy Hill to Wellington West on the current bus crappid transit. You might walk 12 minutes from deepest, darkest Sandy Hill to Campus station, take a 95 west for about 12-15 minutes to Tunney's Pasture station, then walk another 10-12 minutes from Tunney's to your destination on Wellington West.

With LRT... your walk times and distances are utterly unchanged. Yes, LRT will be cooler, without potential tie-ups that surface transit (LRT or bus-crappid) can suffer through, but your trip topology is exactly the same.

This is what is being baked into the urban transit environment in Ottawa for a century or more.

This is a suburban transit vision. Not an urban one.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by JM1

To say that sandy hill is serviced by campus is a real stretch.

Likewise for Little Italy being served by Bayview and Carling (although this is less of a stretch).

The western parts of Sandy Hill are decently served by Campus, and for those who are tolerant of a good stroll, much of the rest of the 'hood is, too. Hell, if your trip is from Overbrook to a far-flung part of the future LRT universe, it's not unrealistic to expect the new pedestrian bridge to create new origins for LRT trips at Campus. (Say, if you live in Overbrook and work at Baseline).

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by McC

Yes, Chinatown, what else would you call the corner of Booth and Somerset? It's not that far a walk for an able bodied person from Booth to Albert St. And if you don't want to walk, take a 2, take your car, take your bike. I don't really care.

So many Eyores.

Take a reduced-frequency 2: the plan is to cut service because "hey look now this neighbourhood is served by LRT; look at these 15-minute walking radiuses!"

Eeyores are Eeyores based on many long years of experience on how the city and OC Transpo treats its residents and customers.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Rideau-Vanier (Ward 12) 50,500
Rideau-Rockcliffe (Ward 13) 49,900
Somerset (Ward 14) 48,900
Kitchissippi (Ward 15) 41,700
Capital (Ward 17) 38,300

Total: 229,300

Population of Ottawa: 1,017,200

That's 23% in what I would call the older, urban city*, for 77% — not 80-90% — being in the suburbs.



* Not quite a perfect match, but close enough: there are a few suburban neighbourhoods in those wards, but also a few more urban-y areas in the other, predominantly suburban wards, so it roughly balances out.

I don't know how you define suburban, but you're counting huge swaths of postwar suburbs built in the 50s and 60s: low density single family homes with a car in every driveway. I live in a 50s suburb. I certainly don't feel like I live in an urban area.

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Those stations are still far to inconveniently located to constitute real improvement to transit within the old city. They are almost all on the edges. And given Ottawa's track record, I have little optimism that redevelopment will be truly transit-oriented (development NEAR transit is not the same as ORIENTED to it), nor integrated with surrounding older urban fabric.

Take a trip from Sandy Hill to Wellington West on the current bus crappid transit. You might walk 12 minutes from deepest, darkest Sandy Hill to Campus station, take a 95 west for about 12-15 minutes to Tunney's Pasture station, then walk another 10-12 minutes from Tunney's to your destination on Wellington West.

With LRT... your walk times and distances are utterly unchanged. Yes, LRT will be cooler, without potential tie-ups that surface transit (LRT or bus-crappid) can suffer through, but your trip topology is exactly the same.

This is what is being baked into the urban transit environment in Ottawa for a century or more. This is a suburban transit vision. Not an urban one.

So the LRT will knock about 10 minutes (or about 25%) off your trip. That's horrible.

[CanadaGoose]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So the LRT will knock about 10 minutes (or about 25%) off your trip. That's horrible.

Will cut 0 minutes*, will add 4-5 mins** from blair stn to laurier stn commuter. Only convenience, no more of the june 28th detour, and large capacity trains, ooo maybe comfort.

* 95/91 comes about every 3-5 mins during day time weekday, confederation line about 2-3 minutes.
** walk increased

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

Will cut 0 minutes*, will add 4-5 mins** from blair stn to laurier stn commuter. Only convenience, no more of the june 28th detour, and large capacity trains, ooo maybe comfort.

* 95/91 comes about every 3-5 mins during day time weekday, confederation line about 2-3 minutes.
** walk increased

Factor in:
-Better frequency in the offpeak (this one is HUGE especially factoring in east of Hurdman)
-Increased speed itself (ie. less time spent in vehicle between two stations) because LRT is faster than buses

[bikegypsy]

Originally Posted by acottawa

So the LRT will knock about 10 minutes (or about 25%) off your trip. That's horrible.

The way I look at it, mass rail based transit is more about saving money and transporting more people rather than saving time.

[CanadaGoose]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

The way I look at it, mass rail based transit is more about saving money and transporting more people rather than saving time.

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Factor in:
-Better frequency in the offpeak (this one is HUGE especially factoring in east of Hurdman)
-Increased speed itself (ie. less time spent in vehicle between two stations) because LRT is faster than buses

Isn't LRT slower than buses in actual vehicle performance. So, same route, slower speed, + deviation to Rideau Centre, +5 min walk, as long as I won't have to deal with ant farm 91s/95s (btw, those 91 baseline double deckers compressed and packed)

And yes, the whole thing is saving money, transporting more people and adding capacity. And anything between Blair -> St. Laurent -> Campus -> Mackenzie King needs it badly

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Factor in:
-Better frequency in the offpeak (this one is HUGE especially factoring in east of Hurdman)
-Increased speed itself (ie. less time spent in vehicle between two stations) because LRT is faster than buses

But your frequency statement is a fallacy. In all time periods, trains will operate less frequently. That is because each train can transport a lot more people than a bus. This is how we save money. The eastern transitway had buses running measured in seconds, not minutes at peak hours, and in mid-day, it could be measured in the low minutes. The expected frequency of LRT is 3 minutes and 15 seconds in peak periods, 5 minutes mid day, 7-8 minutes evening and 10 to 15 minutes late evening.

We will see about service speed. The Trillium Line consistently travels at lower speed than buses. Trains have to stop at every station regardless of whether there are any passengers, buses do not. I know of several Transitway stations where it is very common that buses do not have to stop. The only thing will be the downtown portion that avoids congestion and traffic signals.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

The way I look at it, mass rail based transit is more about saving money and transporting more people rather than saving time.

If that is the case, we have made a terrible planning error. Spending $5B+ on a rapid transit project should improve travel times. Think about every rapid transit project in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. They were built to speed up transit service.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Dundas

The city of Ottawa is building the LRT for its own interest and that savours the suburbs.

The city wants to :
-Save money,
-Get buses out of downtown, and reduce the fleet. (bad idea)
-Make people want to take transit again. taking the train is cool, the bus is lame.
-Get cars off the Queensway/174.
-Keep people downtown after they finish work. This is people who live in the suburbs. Right now people finish work and rush to catch their Express bus back to Orleans, Kanata. God forbids they miss it! No time for a beer with coworkers, no time for shopping, no time for anything. Full sprint for the express bus. Now once a train is running every 3mins the city hopes suburbanites will stay longer downtown after hours. This is why downtown is dead after 6pm.

How does the train help the bolded part at all? Even after Phase 2, LRT has less coverage than the Transitway bus routes that serve downtown today. Great, you take the train, but if you don't live on the train line, how do you get home?

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

But your frequency statement is a fallacy. In all time periods, trains will operate less frequently. That is because each train can transport a lot more people than a bus. This is how we save money. The eastern transitway had buses running measured in seconds, not minutes at peak hours, and in mid-day, it could be measured in the low minutes. The expected frequency of LRT is 3 minutes and 15 seconds in peak periods, 5 minutes mid day, 7-8 minutes evening and 10 to 15 minutes late evening.

Yes, and except for peak periods, that's a higher frequency than the pre-2015 Transitway. I was a regular rider on the Eastern Transitway spine for years, trust me, and frequency was nowhere as good as that.

Anytime outside of peak, even at noon on a weekday, it was normal to have to wait 10 minutes for a bus from the train station to downtown.

Even at peak, it's not much different. A bus every few seconds was a theoretical reality. The actual reality was that there would be 6 buses arriving at the exact same time every 2 or 3 minutes.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

We will see about service speed. The Trillium Line consistently travels at lower speed than buses. Trains have to stop at every station regardless of whether there are any passengers, buses do not. I know of several Transitway stations where it is very common that buses do not have to stop. The only thing will be the downtown portion that avoids congestion and traffic signals.

Trillium Line travels slowly because of the need to slow down at the sidings and such.

Confederation Line will have a much higher running speed (100km/h between stations, by contrast, buses on the Eastern Transitway rarely topped 60-70), as well as reduced dwell times at stops.

There are definitely some areas where speed gains will be minimal--such as on the western section from Lebreton to Tunney's where the buses were already really fast--but in the downtown core and on the eastern leg, there will be noticeable reductions in travel time.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by CyrusKafaiwu

Isn't LRT slower than buses in actual vehicle performance.

No, this is not true at all. The opposite is true.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

If that is the case, we have made a terrible planning error. Spending $5B+ on a rapid transit project should improve travel times. Think about every rapid transit project in Toronto, Montreal and Vancouver. They were built to speed up transit service.

Travel times will be improved, however not dramatically. That's not the point of this exercise, though. We already built a rapid transit system, the Transitway. This project was upgrading the old Transitway to something new to deal with capacity crunches and operational inefficiencies. Other cities spend large sums of money on that kind of thing all the time. Toronto, for example, is spending billions on upgrading the signalling system on their subway to increase capacities and reduce inefficiencies and delays.

[Dundas]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

How does the train help the bolded part at all? Even after Phase 2, LRT has less coverage than the Transitway bus routes that serve downtown today. Great, you take the train, but if you don't live on the train line, how do you get home?

If you dont live on the train line, you take a feeder bus that would bring you to the closets station around your house. OC will need lots of feeder buses to bring people the the stations and back home. When a train packed empties at Blair, you'll need lots of buses ready.