Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[Aroundtheworld]

Originally Posted by jbrizzy

So I was reading about the 49 optimization (taking out the Champlain Heights detour), where a reworking of the 26 to Metrotown was also suggested, and it got me thinking..

I've been thinking of a route along E57th and E54th for a while. It's one of the only E/W routes in the COV without bus service (along with E1st and W33rd), and goes right through the Champlain area. It's mostly residential along the route, but I could see it being non-FTN.

Now, if the 49 detour is removed, this line could be introduced to give E/W access to Champlain, and turn up Tyne to follow the existing route of the 26 to Joyce. The 26 could then be rerouted to Metrotown. This would ensure service around that square that the 49 served, and provide better connections all around.


Let me know what you think and if we should send these to Translink.

I really like the 54/57 proposal. It makes the 49 more efficient and it the seniors who want to go Champlain Mall have a way of getting there. Since it would be low volume, I would suggest using community shuttle size buses instead of the full 40' ones.

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Reecemartin

Has there been any progress in terms of Surrey LRT or Broadway Subway?

It seems that vs. Ontario, BC is now the one investing far more in highways and unnecessarily large bridges.

Ontario had a major stalemate for decades regarding mass transit, now they are building it all at once (some of it poorly planned IMO though), and don't worry, they are still building highways like crazy too. Sooo, that game wont work with that argument

That being said, it would be nice for BC to break our current stalemate now.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Ontario had a major stalemate for decades regarding mass transit, now they are building it all at once (some of it poorly planned IMO though)...

Their decision to keep the Pearson airport train as a unique service separate from the transit system is a travesty, IMHO.

[Metro-One]

Yeah, I also can't get my head around that one. Makes our rail service to YVR look just that much more fluid / accessible.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Yeah, I also can't get my head around that one. Makes our rail service to YVR look just that much more fluid / accessible.

It's doesn't just look that way, it actually is that way, in spades!

[WarrenC12]

The YYZ train price is also something like $20, and I've heard ridership is brutal. It just sounds like somebody came up with a poor business plan and got it approved.

That said, other major cities I've been to like London, Rome and even NYC (JFK), have trains that are separate fare, not included in the general system, etc.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The YYZ train price is also something like $20, and I've heard ridership is brutal. It just sounds like somebody came up with a poor business plan and got it approved.
...

They just dropped it today to $12 (no Presto) $9 (with Presto)

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Their decision to keep the Pearson airport train as a unique service separate from the transit system is a travesty, IMHO.

The more controversial thing IMO would be the decision to create yet another separate transit authority (called a "division" but we all know that means separate management) to manage it, complete with its own CEO - a very Torontonian way of thinking, but also a decision recently reversed as the authority has been folded back into GO Transit to help make the fares lower.

(Yeah, one wonders why they couldn't have done that in the first place...)

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

Ontario had a major stalemate for decades regarding mass transit, now they are building it all at once (some of it poorly planned IMO though), and don't worry, they are still building highways like crazy too. Sooo, that game wont work with that argument

That being said, it would be nice for BC to break our current stalemate now.

I don't know if our stalemate is necessarily that bad. Even with all of their funding, promises and plans in place, something like the Scarburough Suway won't start construction until at least 2018. Finch West LRT was a sure thing, cancelled, restarted, and still no where closer to being built than it was in 2007. And Sheppard East won't start until after Finch West, whenever that is.

Here everything is up in the air, but once we make a decision, we pretty much start construction right away. I bet Broadway subway starts construction and is operational before Scarburough Subway. You will be able to ride from Arbutus to Langley on rapid transit before shovels hit the ground on Sheppard East.

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Their decision to keep the Pearson airport train as a unique service separate from the transit system is a travesty, IMHO.

Pearson is so out of the way. As the crow flies, it is about 20km to Pearson from Union; it is half that from YVR to Waterfront. The Canada line is shorter than what would be needed if Toronto decided to simply extend the St Clair streetcar (the only option of integrating Pearson into the TTC in time for the Pan Am games).

They are thinking of extending the future Finch West LRT to Pearson, but that is probably 2025 away at the earliest. As such, having the UP in place in time for the Pan Am games was a miracle (considering nothing happened on the proposals from 2001 to 2012). It also pretty much beats driving during much of the day and is far cheaper than a taxi.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Pearson is so out of the way. As the crow flies, it is about 20km to Pearson from Union; it is half that from YVR to Waterfront.

What difference does it make how far away it is? They went ahead and built the rail line, so the distance obviously didn't deter them. The problem is that they chose to build the line using a completely different technology with practically no physical or logical integration into the transit system.

[Xerx]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

The problem is that they chose to build the line using a completely different technology with practically no physical or logical integration into the transit system.

Diesel multiple unit is not that different of a technology. Besides, isn't the GO network scheduled for electrification on most of it's lines anyway? I believe Pearson's trains can be electrified if need be.

[Kisai]

Originally Posted by Xerx

Diesel multiple unit is not that different of a technology. Besides, isn't the GO network scheduled for electrification on most of it's lines anyway? I believe Pearson's trains can be electrified if need be.

The difference is that YVR/Canada Line is frequent and automated 8-20 minutes (and integrated into the airport terminal), and you can transfer to the rest of the metro system. The Pearson Express is every 15 minutes and not integrated, and only has four stops.

Like at best you're comparing a subway with a commuter express rail line.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

What difference does it make how far away it is? They went ahead and built the rail line, so the distance obviously didn't deter them. The problem is that they chose to build the line using a completely different technology with practically no physical or logical integration into the transit system.

It makes a difference of billions of dollars and which decade you would like the line to open.

The York University extension of the Young line is 8.6km and costs $2.6 billion. An extension of the Bloor subway to Pearson would be at least 10 to 11 km long, so it would probably cost about $2.6 billion. Extending the St Clair streetcar would be at least 14km. And then you're on streetcar: just riding from Union to the western end of the St Clair streetcar takes over 40 minutes, then you would have another 14km to go. Riding the UP takes half that. Even riding Union to Kipling on Subway takes 40 minutes as is. Elington crosstown was envisioned to terminate at Pearson, in Phase 2; phase one is expected to open in 2021... One in the hand is worth 2 in the bush.

The other issue is Pearson is outside the Toronto city limits putting it outside the jurisdiction of the TTC and makes it the responsibility to Metrolinx. Originally Transport Canada who owns the airport had SNC Lavalin trying to build an airport link. Having Metrolinx involved does actually integrate it with GO service.

Building the UP cost $450 million, and most of that went to upgrading the existing Kitchener GO ROW as the Georgetown South Project, which improves regular GO and VIA rail service which share the tracks. Only $130 million was spent on the Pearson station and spur.

Also, the UP does integrate with the rest of the transit network. There are 2 other stations on the line: Weston where you can transfer to GO (if you want to head west to Kitchener) or to a TTC bus, and there is Bloor GO station where you can transfer to Bloor Subway or King or Dundas streetcar (and a new underground passage should open in 2017 between the stations eliminating a 1 block walk on the surface). When the Elington Crosstown does open, there will be a new UP/GO station at Mt Dennis where transfers can be made to LRT. And if you are punishing yourself by going into Mississauga, there is bus service from Pearson.

Seems integrated enough and more than twice as fast than a subway would be. Well worth the $12 if you ask me.

[TransitJack]

Originally Posted by Kisai

The difference is that YVR/Canada Line is frequent and automated 8-20 minutes (and integrated into the airport terminal), and you can transfer to the rest of the metro system. The Pearson Express is every 15 minutes and not integrated, and only has four stops.

Like at best you're comparing a subway with a commuter express rail line.

6-20 min headways, 6m:40s technically

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

The other issue is Pearson is outside the Toronto city limits putting it outside the jurisdiction of the TTC and makes it the responsibility to Metrolinx.

That doesn't mean it can't be logically integrated with the transit system. West Vancouver integrated with the rest of the Vancouver transit system for years even though it ran it's own buses under it's own management.

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

That doesn't mean it can't be logically integrated with the transit system. West Vancouver integrated with the rest of the Vancouver transit system for years even though it ran it's own buses under it's own management.

The UP is integrated. You can make transfers to the Subway and streetcar at the Bloor GO/UP station and at Union. And you can pay for it all on the Presto card. Or do you not consider GO transit to be integrated? Is WCE integrated in Vancouver?

And I would say the Blue Bus is more a contractor than an integrated independent operator. The South Coast BC Transportation Authority Act clearly states in section 5, that Translink has sole responsibility over transit. Blue Bus has permission to run transit in West Van, from Translink, which Translink mostly pays for. Not the same thing as the TTC and Metrolinx

Besides, I would rather pay the $12 for a 25 minute ride than ride an hour and a half long streetcar trip or hour long subway ride to the airport. Hell, it costs $7.70 to ride the regular GO train to Malton, the closest regular station to Pearson. If you're cheap, you can still take the bus (a lot of buses from the different regions go there). If Abbostford was our main international airport, I would sure hope that we would build a WCE style service there than send the Skytrain all they way down Fraser Highway to Abbotsford.

[twoNeurons]

Cities like London have Express services like the Heathrow Express, Gatwick Express. Expensive. Fast. And garner a lot of business traffic.

Is Toronto on the same level as London? Judging by the price drop to $12... nope.

You can't compare it to the Canada Line in Vancouver. That line doesn't 'integrate' with the transit system, it IS the transit system. YVR is <4km from the mainline in Richmond.

Anyway, just for kicks and giggles, I decided to do a scale model of how close YVR would be if it were in Toronto. Click the link for full size. And of course, I had to rename it. Couldn't have Vancouver's name sullied.

I measured distances based on the Financial District in Toronto and Robson Square area in Vancouver... but in reality, it's approximate. In case you're wondering... if Pearson was in Vancouver, it could be at King George Station ( if the land south of there was flat... which it isn't ). It would stretch from 100th to 72nd, King George to 152nd. Surrey Central, much of Newton and Guildford, Green Timbers... would all be decimated. Guildford Mall would be spared.

[twoNeurons]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

The UP is integrated. You can make transfers to the Subway and streetcar at the Bloor GO/UP station and at Union. And you can pay for it all on the Presto card. Or do you not consider GO transit to be integrated? Is WCE integrated in Vancouver?

And I would say the Blue Bus is more a contractor than an integrated independent operator. The South Coast BC Transportation Authority Act clearly states in section 5, that Translink has sole responsibility over transit. Blue Bus has permission to run transit in West Van, from Translink, which Translink mostly pays for. Not the same thing as the TTC and Metrolinx

Besides, I would rather pay the $12 for a 25 minute ride than ride an hour and a half long streetcar trip or hour long subway ride to the airport. Hell, it costs $7.70 to ride the regular GO train to Malton, the closest regular station to Pearson. If you're cheap, you can still take the bus (a lot of buses from the different regions go there). If Abbostford was our main international airport, I would sure hope that we would build a WCE style service there than send the Skytrain all they way down Fraser Highway to Abbotsford.

I find this interesting... Transit in Toronto ( streetcar/subway ) really is slow when compared to the SkyTrain. I think people don't realize that getting to Surrey in 45 minutes on a regular train is quite fast. Surrey King George is about the same distance as Pearson is from downtown.

Of course, Surrey doesn't have the right kind of land for an airport in that area, but distance-wise, it's a good fit. In fact, looking at Vancouver's terrain, it's quickly determined that there simply aren't that many suitable chunks of terrain that could handle an airport of YVR's size.

[CanSpice]

Originally Posted by twoNeurons

I find this interesting... Transit in Toronto ( streetcar/subway ) really is slow when compared to the SkyTrain. I think people don't realize that getting to Surrey in 45 minutes on a regular train is quite fast. Surrey King George is about the same distance as Pearson is from downtown.

Of course, Surrey doesn't have the right kind of land for an airport in that area, but distance-wise, it's a good fit. In fact, looking at Vancouver's terrain, it's quickly determined that there simply aren't that many suitable chunks of terrain that could handle an airport of YVR's size.

Abbotsford International Airport could probably expand to be that size.

[Conrad Yablonski]

Originally Posted by CanSpice

Abbotsford International Airport could probably expand to be that size.

Not a Hope in Hell of that happening as long as the ALR exists.