Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There is no sense in double tracking the Trillium Line if our only intension is to have a line from Bayview to the Airport. Under those circumstances, it will remain a student train. You need the Bayview connection to the downtown tunnel, otherwise the Southeast Transitway will continue to be the primary route to downtown. Furthermore, without rapid transit south of Hunt Club, there is no means of attracting new ridership from the south and to grow ridership for the Trillium Line to justify double tracking.

With double tracking and the higher frequencies that enables (along the lines of 5 minutes all day like the Confederation Line), the Trillium Line can be a success. It doesn't have to go directly downtown if frequencies are high on both ends.

The entire world has proven that people have no problem with rail-to-rail transfers if frequencies are high.

By your logic the Bloor-Danforth subway in Toronto should be a failure because it doesn't go directly downtown.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

With double tracking and the higher frequencies that enables (along the lines of 5 minutes all day like the Confederation Line), the Trillium Line can be a success. It doesn't have to go directly downtown if frequencies are high on both ends.

The entire world has proven that people have no problem with rail-to-rail transfers if frequencies are high.

By your logic the Bloor-Danforth subway in Toronto should be a failure because it doesn't go directly downtown.

Or Montreal's Blue Line.

[DubberDom]

Originally Posted by AndyMEng

I'm just getting back from a trip to Stockholm, a city of roughly 950,000 in the city, and 1.3M in the metro area.

Correction 2.2 Million in Metro area, which is representative of the Transit Map you showed

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_areas_in_Sweden#Metropolitan_Stockholm

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by AndyMEng

I'm just getting back from a trip to Stockholm, a city of roughly 950,000 in the city, and 1.3M in the metro area.

Not sure where you got your figures from, but Wikipedia says the Metropolitan Area of Stockholm has a population of 2.2 million. As a comparison the Metropolitan area of Ottawa–Gatineau has a population of 1.2 million, so Stockholm has almost twice the population and is more comparable to the size of Vancouver.

When looking at transit needs, Metropolitan area is arguably the best method of measuring a city's population as it ignores political boundaries and instead is the area closely bound to the center by employment or other commerce.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by roger1818

The LRT will encourage more people to move closer to downtown.

No it won't.

It doesn't really serve any downtown residential neighbourhoods, and only does so as a coincidental side-effect. With the expansion plans focussed entirely on the suburbs, and with absolutely zero plans for any kind of transit other than buses to serve the older mixed-use city, there is no incentive for anyone to live closer to downtown than in the outer burbs based on transit alone.

I've already seen in my own neighbourhood that it is faster to bus downtown from Orleans or Nepean than from the older ring of "streetcar suburbs" surrounding downtown. LRT will only exacerbate that disadvantage, in favour of the suburbs.

Enjoy my taxes, Orleans. I don't.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

The idea of introducing commuter DMU rail service to the suburbs will only work if we have a downtown station. As I mentioned, the worst thing we could create is a bus, train, train commute or a bus, bus, train commute or something more convoluted.

You'd be surprised what people will do if they have a *choice*.

The same kinds of arguments are made against extending the O-train to Hull, which could and should have been done a decade ago: just because it won't serve some, many, or even most commuters, is not a reason to not do it - because there will be people who will use it, including people you didn't anticipate.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by MoreTrains

Everything in the city is expected to benefit everybody.

No, it's expected to benefit the suburbs.

There is nothing in Ottawa's transit master plan for inside-the-Greenbelt residents.

Nothing.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Do you really believe this? We are talking about one corridor across the city. We are not building a network of tramways that exist in many European cities. If you don't live within walking distance of the Confederation Line, you are left with the same crappy service.

Actually crappier: remember, the plan is to truncate even more of the local service downtown routes that currently cross the central city, because reasons.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

By following the Queensway, there is a limit to the attractiveness of building expensive condos next to the line.

That's why you don't built condos as your TOD near those stations; you build non-residential uses.

But, yeah - east of the canal, the route sucks at actually serving people, but it was the path of economic and political least resistance.

Meanwhile, people who live in the central city east of the canal will not see real mass transit in this century.

Enjoy our taxes, Orleans.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

That is fine but you cannot ignore the suburbs. If you do not build rail to the suburbs, then you are building busways in their place. What we have today, does not satisfy future needs. There needs to be some balance because the population within the Greenbelt is pretty stagnant.

In the inside-the-greenbelt suburbs, yes.

In the older residential neighbourhoods, no: the population is, for the most part, growing:

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recen...tic/2011-98310-001-505-013-01-00-eng.pdf

[DarthVader_1961]

Will the trainsxstop at every stop without having tompush a stop button?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by DarthVader_1961

Will the trainsxstop at every stop without having tompush a stop button?

Not stopping will not speed up the trains.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

No it won't.

It doesn't really serve any downtown residential neighbourhoods, and only does so as a coincidental side-effect.

I said closer to downtown not downtown. Those around Tunnies Pasture will be very well served and after Phase 2, Westboro, and along Richmond to Lincoln Fields.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

With double tracking and the higher frequencies that enables (along the lines of 5 minutes all day like the Confederation Line), the Trillium Line can be a success. It doesn't have to go directly downtown if frequencies are high on both ends.

The entire world has proven that people have no problem with rail-to-rail transfers if frequencies are high.

By your logic the Bloor-Danforth subway in Toronto should be a failure because it doesn't go directly downtown.

There is no alternative to the Bloor-Danforth subway.

Here, we have the southeast Transitway as competition. It will continue to win over most riders because of the flexibility to provide more direct service from local neighbourhoods. The Trillium Line that runs only from the airport to Bayview is not going to win that battle. It provides niche service for students and those bypassing downtown to go to locations west of downtown. That is the way it will continue to be unless we get rid of the Bayview transfer.

I laughed when they said they couldn't open the Walkley and Gladstone Stations with the last Trillium Line upgrade because everybody was going to switch to the Trillium Line to go downtown during the Confederation Line construction. The experts and politicians don't understand transit rider behaviour. Transit riders avoid extra transfers when given a choice. Transfers add uncertainty to any trip.

[Beedok]

But won't the south east transitway only go to Hurdman? So you're transfering at least once either way and the Trillium Line is seeing plenty of intensification.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

There is no alternative to the Bloor-Danforth subway.

The Southeast Transitway competes only for the southern part of the Trillium Line. In this respect you could say the Lakeshore East line is analogous, as it competes with the Bloor-Danforth subway east of Main Street station.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

I laughed when they said they couldn't open the Walkley and Gladstone Stations with the last Trillium Line upgrade because everybody was going to switch to the Trillium Line to go downtown during the Confederation Line construction.

For Gladstone, yes they were right. That would be very attractive over the trip on Route 14, which as a downtown local is a shitshow of a bus route.

For Walkley, in today's environment, you're absolutely right--it wouldn't really attract downtown-bound riders.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Beedok

But won't the south east transitway only go to Hurdman? So you're transfering at least once either way and the Trillium Line is seeing plenty of intensification.

The idea is that with Hurdman it would one bus->rail transfer as opposed to the Trillium Line which would be bus->rail->rail transfer.

If the Trillium Line ran with high frequencies, though, it wouldn't really matter.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by Beedok

But won't the south east transitway only go to Hurdman? So you're transfering at least once either way and the Trillium Line is seeing plenty of intensification.

Intensification in Little Italy? The direct bus route (85) will be a shorter walk for most of them and there is no transfer to get downtown. As I said, people try to avoid transfers.

Yes, the southeast Transitway will only go to Hurdman, but the Trillium Line means two transfers, at Greenboro and Bayview. That is the killer.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

For Gladstone, yes they were right. That would be very attractive over the trip on Route 14, which as a downtown local is a shitshow of a bus route.

For Walkley, in today's environment, you're absolutely right--it wouldn't really attract downtown-bound riders.

Nobody is going transfer off the Route 14 to get on the Trillium Line to go one stop to transfer again to the Confederation Line, when the Route 14 goes directly downtown even if the bus route is slower. A Gladstone stop will serve mostly people within walking distance of the station, or people transferring to go south to Carleton etc.