Tsawwassen First Nation Updates

[Klazu]

Was this video ever posted in here? Shows how the mall will look like inside out.

• Video Link

[memememe76]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

if its going to be outlet type stores how many can vancouver area have? the outlet mall at the airport is really quiet and loads of empty spots with more space getting built. Most markets our size have one or two outlets per big brand, ie seattle has two coach outlet stores, and one ralph lauren. The big box components might help draw some people perhaps.

Do you have to pay the YVR surcharge if you take the Canada Line? That would limit the number of people willing to go.

[cairnstone]

Originally Posted by SpongeG

if its going to be outlet type stores how many can vancouver area have? the outlet mall at the airport is really quiet and loads of empty spots with more space getting built. Most markets our size have one or two outlets per big brand, ie seattle has two coach outlet stores, and one ralph lauren. The big box components might help draw some people perhaps.

Macarthur Glenn is a huge success, I know many of the brands here have some of the top sales in the chain. The only slow period is now but they still meet there targets as the low dollar is bring US buyers here.

Do you think that Ivanhoe Cambridge would build a mall on speculation. This mall will draw people from Seattle area and all over BC.

[dleung]

Video basically says "look at all the parking!" I wonder if Gordon Campbell would have allowed these travesties to happen, or would he have tried to work out something with the First Nations. This sets back the province's environmental record by a few decades.

[WarrenC12]

Wow is that the best they can do?

"Strategically located".
"30 minute drive from downtown?"

I live downtown and it takes me 40 mins to get to the ferry on a quiet weekend morning.

Oh ya, and they mention bass pro shops and nothing else. Any other confirmed anchor tenants? Or any tenants?

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by dleung

Video basically says "look at all the free parking!"

Fixed that for you.

Yeah, I agree about your comment on setting region's environmental efforts back few steps. I wish they would at least try being green by utilizing things that other big box retailers and for example IKEA utilize around the world. Like gathering rain water to use for flushing toilets, have sun panels over parking lots, have a huge green roof with bee hives, etc.

This would also help general people's image of this project. Now it feels like they are going where the fence is the lowest and being greed capitalists with no concern over environment.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Oh ya, and they mention bass pro shops and nothing else. Any other confirmed anchor tenants? Or any tenants?

I think the only other currently is Saks OFF 5th. When completed, there should be 16 anchor retailers.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Wow is that the best they can do?

"Strategically located".
"30 minute drive from downtown?"

I live downtown and it takes me 40 mins to get to the ferry on a quiet weekend morning.

Oh ya, and they mention bass pro shops and nothing else. Any other confirmed anchor tenants? Or any tenants?

Yeah it looks like a typical sprawly suburban mall. We can only hope that some of the current parking is planned to be built on at a later date (during my lifetime would be nice... ). I doubt CoV shoppers are who they're really aiming for. Ferry traffic, cross border shoppers and people living SoF are who they're hoping to entice - aka people who would be driving and not taking transit / cycling to get here.

As Klazu mentioned Saks OFF 5th has confirmed. Based on that video I would assume Old Navy, Winners, H&M and Forever 21 too - they'd be pretty peeved about their logos showing up prominently if they weren't opening here. There were a few more with typos that may show up (I think I saw 'Albo').

[WarrenC12]

Funny that this gets built on first nations land when they are the first to complain about the environment when a pipeline or dam is proposed...

[GMasterAres]

It's human nature

Level 1 = Greed
Level 2 = 🞵🞵🞵
Level 3 = Self-Preservation

The environment falls on level 3, the bottom level. Greed and 🞵🞵🞵 will always trump the environment. Just human nature.

As for this mall, I don't find it as distasteful as some others seem to. This is in the middle of nowhere and they are building it largely on land that wasn't farmed for decades and never would be farmed.

TFN is looking to build about 5,000 homes in and around the mall gives them @ 2 people per home average about 10,000 people + 40,000 with Tsawwassen and Ladner near by as a _base_.

Transit isn't actually horrible you can take the 620 from Bridgeport and be to the mall in less than 30 minutes direct so basically anyone from Vancouver or Richmond can take transit and don't need to drive.

SoF the SFPR is a direct route by car and there is little traffic on it most of the time so from a 'car' perspective it is quite efficient. 9 million cars and trucks drive by there every year from the ferry so you'd have all those cars going by there anyway mall or not.

And finally with the dollar low you'll get people from the US coming up and even those going to Vancouver as a destination may stop in given it is along 99 and between Vancouver and Seattle basically just like Canadians do at Tulalip which I'll point out has about 10 times the parking lots this thing has but nobody seems to gripe since it wasn't build on sacred "farm land".

I dunno I just don't see it as as much of a blight that others do given its location and purpose. People seem to think if you build anything on "farm land" you are destroying the environment. The vast majority of Metro Vancouver is constructed on former farm land and like I said, this specific land wasn't farmed for a long time and wasn't going to be farmed so it was in essence dead land. Not to mention if you take all the farmland in ALL of BC, it can only accommodate 48% of the food consumed in BC and only accounts for 56% of the food people eat. That means 52% of the food the population of BC eats every year MUST BE imported and 44% of the food we like to eat can't economically be grown in BC anyway. Can't grow bananas here for example...

If they were building this thing in the middle of Surrey or Burnaby or Vancouver then I'd be completely on the side of "🞵🞵🞵 huge parking lots what??" but again, look where it is in the context of where it is and the context of what the purpose of it is.

*shrug*

Just my opinion feel free to disagree.

That said, it isn't the largest mall in BC. You can't combine Mills with Tsawassen Commons. Mall size is calculated as contiguous.

[dleung]

Wow it's even worse that I feared. 5000 new units of sprawl? That's 5000 units that won't be going towards densifying established areas or making better transit viable.

It's also 9 million vehicle trips worth of retail activity sequestered in the middle of nowhere instead of in actual communities, where it could have contributed to thriving shopping streets and other spillover economic activity.

It's the loss of potential transit ridership base that is most damaging, other than the massive heat island from the inefficient one-storey mall and parking. Better a barren overgrown patch of land/wildlife habitat than asphalt. Loss of farmland is a distant 3rd concern - it was actually being farmed prior to redevelopment, btw.

[GeeCee]

It's not exactly in the middle of nowhere. It's right beside the ferry terminal.

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Funny that this gets built on first nations land when they are the first to complain about the environment when a pipeline or dam is proposed...

I understand the feeling that might be behind this statement, and apologies first, but it is incredibly stupid. All native peoples are not the same unified cultural group. "When they are the first to . . . " That's equivalent to saying that its "funny how the whites in Alberta have developed the oils sands, when other whites are then complaining about the environmental cost of that development. The Tsawwassen First Nation is its own people and there is no reason to throw them in with any other group.

[Marshal]

Originally Posted by jhausner

It's human nature

Level 1 = Greed
Level 2 = 🞵🞵🞵
Level 3 = Self-Preservation

The environment falls on level 3, the bottom level. Greed and 🞵🞵🞵 will always trump the environment. Just human nature.

As for this mall, I don't find it as distasteful as some others seem to. This is in the middle of nowhere and they are building it largely on land that wasn't farmed for decades and never would be farmed.

TFN is looking to build about 5,000 homes in and around the mall gives them @ 2 people per home average about 10,000 people + 40,000 with Tsawwassen and Ladner near by as a _base_.

Transit isn't actually horrible you can take the 620 from Bridgeport and be to the mall in less than 30 minutes direct so basically anyone from Vancouver or Richmond can take transit and don't need to drive.

SoF the SFPR is a direct route by car and there is little traffic on it most of the time so from a 'car' perspective it is quite efficient. 9 million cars and trucks drive by there every year from the ferry so you'd have all those cars going by there anyway mall or not.

And finally with the dollar low you'll get people from the US coming up and even those going to Vancouver as a destination may stop in given it is along 99 and between Vancouver and Seattle basically just like Canadians do at Tulalip which I'll point out has about 10 times the parking lots this thing has but nobody seems to gripe since it wasn't build on sacred "farm land".

I dunno I just don't see it as as much of a blight that others do given its location and purpose. People seem to think if you build anything on "farm land" you are destroying the environment. The vast majority of Metro Vancouver is constructed on former farm land and like I said, this specific land wasn't farmed for a long time and wasn't going to be farmed so it was in essence dead land. Not to mention if you take all the farmland in ALL of BC, it can only accommodate 48% of the food consumed in BC and only accounts for 56% of the food people eat. That means 52% of the food the population of BC eats every year MUST BE imported and 44% of the food we like to eat can't economically be grown in BC anyway. Can't grow bananas here for example...

If they were building this thing in the middle of Surrey or Burnaby or Vancouver then I'd be completely on the side of "🞵🞵🞵 huge parking lots what??" but again, look where it is in the context of where it is and the context of what the purpose of it is.

*shrug*

Just my opinion feel free to disagree.

That said, it isn't the largest mall in BC. You can't combine Mills with Tsawassen Commons. Mall size is calculated as contiguous.

I'll disagree. I don't care at all about it being on potential farmland. It simply goes against the good parts of our region's planning objectives. It's easy to look at it and find some supporting conditions, and to shrug at the negatives stacked against it. What this says is simply that this mall isn't going to ruin the Lower Mainland. But, so what? It’s a mistake on every principled planning position.

They have a right to do it, they are, soon it will be part of our city, it won't destroy our city, it will succeed or fail, life will go on. But it’s an idiotic development that is 90 times wrong for every right it can claim.


As a nit pick: your 50,000 base population is a pittance relative to what they are building.

[cairnstone]

guess what as canadians we all own a small part of this mall through our CPP. So live with it. I am started to see a trend in this city everyone wants cool new stores but when a large mall is built we all cry to big why there etc. Its a better location here at TFN than being built in chilliwack or abbotsford. I was at crossroads mills and they draw people from a big area to it lots stop after trips to airport. How many here are from small town. when you only had a small 5 and dime type store. I think you will get a ton of people from the island interior bc americans use this mall. As you wont have to drive in the city. And that will be a big selling point.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jhausner

It's human nature

Level 1 = Greed
Level 2 = 🞵🞵🞵
Level 3 = Self-Preservation

That's a funny version of Maslow's...

But anyway, I agree with you, it's all about Greed. I didn't say I was surprised, it's just a bit hypocritical. The same way people want more government services but don't want to pay more tax.

[WarrenC12]

I'll go on record predicting this place as a failure (certainly compared to the YVR outlet).

Shoppers from the US? Has that ever been a thing? There's no way in hell is is drawing people ahead of Seattle Premium Outlets, which is positioned between Seattle and the border anyway.

[Cypherus]

I just don't understand where the demand would be coming from. The region is already well served with malls that offer the same stores. A proper business plan would have suggested that the TFN plan for a Mill theme mall would be redundant. The region does not need more malls:


-Abbotsford has High Street along with Westoaks / Sevenoaks
-Langley has Willow brook
-Surrey has Guildford and Central City
-Metrotown has Metropolis
-Brentwood has Brentwood Town Center
-Loughheed has Loughheed Town Center
-South Vancouver has Oakridge
-Downtown Vancouver has Pacific Center
-North Vancouver has Park Royal
-Coquitlam has Coquitlam Centre
-Richmond has Aberdeen / Landsdown along with the Outlet Malls
-New West has Quayside

Why would I go to TM to go to Winners when I can just walk to Central City? The mall will only have initial traffic due to curiosity than die down as people will just shop where it is geographically convenient.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by dleung

Wow it's even worse that I feared. 5000 new units of sprawl? That's 5000 units that won't be going towards densifying established areas or making better transit viable.

It's also 9 million vehicle trips worth of retail activity sequestered in the middle of nowhere instead of in actual communities, where it could have contributed to thriving shopping streets and other spillover economic activity.

It's the loss of potential transit ridership base that is most damaging, other than the massive heat island from the inefficient one-storey mall and parking. Better a barren overgrown patch of land/wildlife habitat than asphalt. Loss of farmland is a distant 3rd concern - it was actually being farmed prior to redevelopment, btw.

Yah you're just making stuff up. There's no basis in fact to what you're claiming and the reality isn't black and white. They build 5000 units in TFN therefor 5000 units won't be built elsewhere, that's a stretch. Or those 9 million people go to the Mills mall instead of Metrotown. That's a stretch too.

There is no direct connection you're just making that up. The 9 million vehicles going by would stop at the mall due to convenience. But I am fairly certain if Mills wasn't there (which it isn't today) you're not getting 9 million vehicles stopping at local super awesome urban malls in Metro Vancouver. Most are just transitioning through Metro-Van to beyond.

Anyway regarding the environment concerns too I've stated with facts and numbers in the past that people in Metro Vancouver need to get over themselves. Our pollution footprint on the Earth is within the margin for error. We're meaningless. So it's all a bunch of 🞵🞵🞵🞵 people say to make themselves feel better or feel like they matter.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by Cypherus

I just don't understand where the demand would be coming from. The region is already well served with malls that offer the same stores. A proper business plan would have suggested that the TFN plan for a Mill theme mall would be redundant. The region does not need more malls:


-Abbotsford has High Street along with Westoaks / Sevenoaks
-Langley has Willow brook
-Surrey has Guildford and Central City
-Metrotown has Metropolis
-Brentwood has Brentwood Town Center
-Loughheed has Loughheed Town Center
-South Vancouver has Oakridge
-Downtown Vancouver has Pacific Center
-North Vancouver has Park Royal
-Coquitlam has Coquitlam Centre
-Richmond has Aberdeen / Landsdown along with the Outlet Malls
-New West has Quayside

Why would I go to TM to go to Winners when I can just walk to Central City? The mall will only have initial traffic due to curiosity than die down as people will just shop where it is geographically convenient.

They have different things. I'm not a mall person but my wife goes to malls. She will go to 3 winners for example because "they have different things." We live in Surrey Central so have Central City & Guildford within 10 minutes drive yet she goes out to Willowbrook on a regular basis and even ventures to Metrotown from time to time.

I don't think malls can be completely compared to each other like they are a static big-box retailer like Home Depot. Sure if you have a Home Depot next to you likely a Home Depot further away you'll never need to go to. But malls like I said are different, even if they have the same shops.

Go into 4 different Hudson Bays and you'll find in practice they could all be different and have different things. The Bay at Guildford is more of an outlet. The Bay out in Langley tends to have bigger sizes available. The Bay in Richmond has tiny sizes and more trendy items. The Bay downtown has all the new expensive lines.

Same store, but different stuff. And that's just HB. I've read a lot of people talk about "this should have had a proper business plan" but I honestly think most commenting don't actually know what a proper business plan looks like. They wouldn't be building this thing if they felt it would fail. It may! We'll see. But a couple forum posts and feelings a business plan does not make which is what I think some people here think.

That said in watching that video I saw about 3 or 4 'anchors' that I don't think are anywhere else in all of Metro Vancouver. A few have been mentioned too so there are draws. *shrug*

We'll see.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

That's a funny version of Maslow's...

But anyway, I agree with you, it's all about Greed. I didn't say I was surprised, it's just a bit hypocritical. The same way people want more government services but don't want to pay more tax.

Yup.