Downtown Vancouver Updates

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Klazu

I was thinking the same the other day while walking by. It encloses the square very nicely, making it feel a bit more intimate. Perfect scale IMO.

Yes, and the real thing is rather nicer in color and texture than the renderings IMO.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by officedweller

The only difference I see is the at-grade alcove at the corner is gone.

Maybe the design just grew on me. The brick does look really good.

[Krissy]

Originally Posted by squeezied

No you are extremely biased, taking any remote opportunity to bash Vancouver for not fitting into your narrow-minded ideals. How many times have you said anything positive about low- or mid-rises?


What in the world are you talking about? Can you at least try to give a coherent explanation? Or do you just assume people are able to follow your convoluted logic?


About? Giving you a dose of reality?


Your logic was making my head hurt and I decided it was best not responding to deluded far fetched ideas not grounded in reality, but I suppose you've now dragged me in. Where do you come up with wacky ideas? Do you honestly believe that's a realistic solution? Give me an example where a municipality has successfully enforced a private owner to subsidize their retail rental rates. Who is eligible for subsidize retail? How long does the City get to mandate the rental rates? Great idea... but how about come down to reality?

When a development is being rezoned, the applicant contributes to the municipality prior to development approval, a process that is negotiated(for CACs) and agreed between the two. You somehow think that after the development is completed the City can willy nilly come along and force the developer to contribute more in the form of reduced rental rates however they see fit?

The developer will charge retail at the prevailing and competitive free-market rate. That's not "my version" of capitalism, that's capitalism capitalism. It doesn't matter whether they made a killing selling 60 floors of luxury units above or not. The developer will charge whatever they think they can charge. The fact that the Denman retail isn't leasing well isn't due to the fact it's only two stories.

My head hurts. Do you see why I ignored you in the first place?



Ouch... looks like I hit a nerve. I love a challenge too, at least I don't talk with clouded emotions. Strange that you're accusing me of hyperboles, I guess you weren't serious about...

Apparently you do. You're quite entertaining.

Why don't municipalities venture into subsidized retail? Something about it does sound like a ridiculous idea, but I can't pinpoint why. Just curious. It would be great to have more mom and pop shops who can't afford expensive rents.

[officedweller]

Good catch on the slit windows - I didn't notice that.

Originally Posted by Jebby

Maybe the design just grew on me. The brick does look really good.

It frames the square well.
It would be nice to see something taller to the west.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by Krissy

Why don't municipalities venture into subsidized retail? Something about it does sound like a ridiculous idea, but I can't pinpoint why. Just curious. It would be great to have more mom and pop shops who can't afford expensive rents.

Because that's not a proper function of a municipal (or any level) government?

[wrenegade]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Because that's not a proper function of a municipal (or any level) government?

They could balance commercial property taxes a little better (at the expense of higher residential taxes) but that would surely piss off the residents. And residents vote, businesses do not.

[NewWester]

Originally Posted by Krissy

Why don't municipalities venture into subsidized retail? Something about it does sound like a ridiculous idea, but I can't pinpoint why. Just curious. It would be great to have more mom and pop shops who can't afford expensive rents.

I can pinpoint why: you want to tax people and successful businesses to make less successful businesses viable in a city where normal people already can't afford to live. That's bananas!

And like, I like small businesses! But I show that support through patronage...

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by Jebby

Because that's not a proper function of a municipal (or any level) government?

Governments subsidize industries and businesses all over this country. From billions of dollars for Bombardier and GM, to $34 billion/year to the fossil fuel industry, to setting milk and grain prices. Some say the total has been $648 billion over 30 years.

http://business.financialpost.com/news/e...ness-subsidies-over-20-years-study-shows

Sometimes its to keep a company from closing in hard times, others it is to maintain an entire sector of the economy afloat, others, it is just to keep jobs in Canada and prevent us from being fully dependent of foreign imports.

In this day and age where the margins of retail are being snuffed out by online competition, and if a city deems that certain forms of retail are an important piece in the social-economic fabric of an urban area, then subsidies for retail start to make sense. Not only do they protect jobs, but also can offer critical services to a local population.

If residents move into a dense urban area, and are paying sky-high property taxes because of their astronomical real estate and rents, but don't have access to basic necessities without access to an automobile to drive across town, hasn't the experiment of the Downtown failed?

To prop up the collection of high residential property taxes, and/or prevent dilapidated blocks of shuttered streetfront windows, some retail may need to be subsidized or even rent controlled.

[NewWester]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Governments subsidize industries and businesses all over this country. From billions of dollars for Bombardier and GM, to $34 billion/year to the fossil fuel industry, to setting milk and grain prices. Some say the total has been $648 billion over 30 years.

http://business.financialpost.com/news/e...ness-subsidies-over-20-years-study-shows

Sometimes its to keep a company from closing in hard times, others it is to maintain an entire sector of the economy afloat, others, it is just to keep jobs in Canada and prevent us from being fully dependent of foreign imports.

In this day and age where the margins of retail are being snuffed out by online competition, and if a city deems that certain forms of retail are an important piece in the social-economic fabric of an urban area, then subsidies for retail start to make sense. Not only do they protect jobs, but also can offer critical services to a local population.

If residents move into a dense urban area, and are paying sky-high property taxes because of their astronomical real estate and rents, but don't have access to basic necessities without access to an automobile to drive across town, hasn't the experiment of the Downtown failed?

To prop up the collection of high residential property taxes, and/or prevent dilapidated blocks of shuttered streetfront windows, some retail may need to be subsidized or even rent controlled.

I feel weird saying this as probably one of the more leftist people on this forum: but I kinda feel like the market can handle this one? If downtown rents are so high that *no* businesses can function and entire streets are shuttered then there is an incentive for landlords to lower rents so that they can, you know, actually collect rent...

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by NewWester

I feel weird saying this as probably one of the more leftist people on this forum: but I kinda feel like the market can handle this one? If downtown rents are so high that *no* businesses can function and entire streets are shuttered then there is an incentive for landlords to lower rents so that they can, you know, actually collect rent...

Total Logic 111 It's strange that sometimes the most obvious is overlooked by the powers that be, as if not being able to see the forest for the trees.

[Vin]

Originally Posted by NewWester

I feel weird saying this as probably one of the more leftist people on this forum: but I kinda feel like the market can handle this one? If downtown rents are so high that *no* businesses can function and entire streets are shuttered then there is an incentive for landlords to lower rents so that they can, you know, actually collect rent...

Yeah it can handle it for sure, but only the very wealthy international retailers are the ones that can afford the rental eventually. Moms and pops, as well as bigger mid-to-lower-range stores that actually benefit local residents will move further and further away from the city centre, which defeats the purpose of moving so many residents downtown in the first place. Today in downtown Vancouver, you either see more high-end stores in the main retail centres, or businesses in old shabby structures providing lower rents that are doing relatively well. The other street retail businesses in the more outlying downtown areas of newer buildings are usually struggling because of the very high rent. Yes, downtown can handle this, but it also means more residents leaving downtown for their wide-ranging shopping/servicing needs, which does not spell "green" at all.

[NewWester]

Originally Posted by Vin

Yeah it can handle it for sure, but only the very wealthy international retailers are the ones that can afford the rental eventually. Moms and pops, as well as bigger mid-to-lower-range stores that actually benefit local residents will move further and further away from the city centre, which defeats the purpose of moving so many residents downtown in the first place. Today in downtown Vancouver, you either see more high-end stores in the main retail centres, or businesses in old shabby structures providing lower rents that are doing relatively well. The other street retail businesses in the more outlying downtown areas of newer buildings are usually struggling because of the very high rent. Yes, downtown can handle this, but it also means more residents leaving downtown for their wide-ranging shopping/servicing needs, which does not spell "green" at all.

I guess part of this discussion is what constitutes a mom-and-pop shop. If you mean independent businesses, I'm not sure they are being entirely displaced. Like, Gastown is filled with upscale small businesses that don't fit the "mom and Pop" mold, but are still smaller, independent stores. I agree there is a gradual loss of mid-to-lower range stores and a concentration of premium or luxury brands/experiences downtown. But is that purely rent driven? Or are the absurd rents/costs of DT creating a luxury cliental and displacing the mid-to-lower businesses? Like, is Ma and Pa Dollarmart gone because of rents or because the cliental for Ma and Pa Dollarmart don't live DT anymore?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by NewWester

I feel weird saying this as probably one of the more leftist people on this forum: but I kinda feel like the market can handle this one? If downtown rents are so high that *no* businesses can function and entire streets are shuttered then there is an incentive for landlords to lower rents so that they can, you know, actually collect rent...

Tell that to the people in Coal Harbour. It's starting to feel like a bank down there: deserted after hours and in reality the buildings aren't places to live but just stacks of money people have invested.

And I don't know if business rents go down that fast. Some might try to hold out for what their neighbors are getting. And if you do lower your rent to get a tenant, if that causes a rebound in the neighbourhood, then you can just jack up the rent later, they move out, then we just start all over again.

Originally Posted by NewWester

I guess part of this discussion is what constitutes a mom-and-pop shop. If you mean independent businesses, I'm not sure they are being entirely displaced. Like, Gastown is filled with upscale small businesses that don't fit the "mom and Pop" mold, but are still smaller, independent stores. I agree there is a gradual loss of mid-to-lower range stores and a concentration of premium or luxury brands/experiences downtown. But is that purely rent driven? Or are the absurd rents/costs of DT creating a luxury cliental and displacing the mid-to-lower businesses? Like, is Ma and Pa Dollarmart gone because of rents or because the cliental for Ma and Pa Dollarmart don't live DT anymore?

High rents/costs for downtown housing is only one side of the cost of living equation. You also have to factor in how much it costs to eat. Non rich people downtown are being squeeze from both ends. If low cost grocery stores and restaurants and clothing stores are subsidized a bit, then it eases the financial pressure on those that are not well off.

Call me crazy, but I don't think the best outcome for downtown Vancouver is to become homogenized as a rich person's resort. Some diversity is needed to keep the spark alive in downtown. Some people just want to get a reasonably priced haircut, not go to a day spa. You know?

And I'm not just talking mom-and-pop. But what if something like Marketplace IGA can't afford to stay open? What if they increase their prices significantly? What effect does that have on people who live paycheck to paycheck?

It is in a pretty good balance right now, but what if it just gets too expensive for regular people to live there? And not just people who buy now, but many white collar workers already have places downtown. Something that was a solid financial plan 10 years ago might be unsustainable today. It would be a shame to see them all sell their places to foreign investors and move to Burnaby and beyond.

[NewWester]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

High rents/costs for downtown housing is only one side of the cost of living equation. You also have to factor in how much it costs to eat. Non rich people downtown are being squeeze from both ends. If low cost grocery stores and restaurants and clothing stores are subsidized a bit, then it eases the financial pressure on those that are not well off.

Call me crazy, but I don't think the best outcome for downtown Vancouver is to become homogenized as a rich person's resort. Some diversity is needed to keep the spark alive in downtown. Some people just want to get a reasonably priced haircut, not go to a day spa. You know?

And I'm not just talking mom-and-pop. But what if something like Marketplace IGA can't afford to stay open? What if they increase their prices significantly? What effect does that have on people who live paycheck to paycheck?

I basically agree with the overall objective that it is better for downtown to be accessible to a diverse group of people. I just think that it is much more efficient to just subsidize housing if that is your goal. Biggest cost to most of us is our rent/mortgage and cutting that down is going to make a bigger difference than slightly cheaper vegetables (and that's assuming that a business that is subsidized would pass savings on instead of charging market rates...). I think my main issue with the idea of subsidizing commercial rents is that our community funds are finite, and I can think of so many more deserving, more efficient, or more stimulative projects than helping, like, the gap or corner store, y'know?

[WarrenC12]

Has anybody seen the BC Place lighting over the past few days?

They have a bunch of flags around the ring, I'm guessing for Rugby 7s. Looks really cool... they are definitely getting better with the lighting effects. I'd take a pic if I had a better view. Maybe one of the local experts can do so.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

Call me crazy, but I don't think the best outcome for downtown Vancouver is to become homogenized as a rich person's resort. Some diversity is needed to keep the spark alive in downtown. Some people just want to get a reasonably priced haircut, not go to a day spa. You know?

This is one of my big anxieties about downtown Vancouver, too.

[mcminsen]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Has anybody seen the BC Place lighting over the past few days?

They have a bunch of flags around the ring, I'm guessing for Rugby 7s. Looks really cool... they are definitely getting better with the lighting effects. I'd take a pic if I had a better view. Maybe one of the local experts can do so.

Here's a low res pic from last night. I didn't have my tripod with me but I tried anyway.

Does anyone know if they will ever get the little white lights on the suspension cables fixed?



March 7 '16, my pic

[WarrenC12]

Thanks!!

[logan5]

I wonder if someday those panels could be replaced with transparent HD screens. The cool things you could do...

[Vin]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Thanks!!

One of the few great spots to view BC Place Stadium: on the viaduct! Especially so after the completion of the Casino, redevelopment of Plaza of Nations and build-up of the surrounding Concord lands.