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  #901  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2016, 4:16 PM
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Originally Posted by suburbia View Post
The upgrading costs for inner-city sewage "densification" are going up astronomically. Begs the question. When there is substantive densification that requires digging up utilities and adding bandwidth, should those subsidies also be tossed?
I would be curious of the suburban greenfield vs innercity "re-do" average cost per new residence/unit.
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  #902  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2016, 4:24 PM
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Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post
I would be curious of the suburban greenfield vs innercity "re-do" average cost per new residence/unit.
I'd suspect upgrading inner city retrofitting would generally be cheaper, till it gets to a point where entire segments need to be replaced to deal with higher loads. In those scenarios, sometimes the costs swing the other way, with upgrading to handle more density being way more than laying down fresh somewhere or other.

As a general comment, however, I don't think costs should be ever calculated as per residence or per unit, and rather, normalized for estimated occupants. Inner city is often in the 1.2 per unit range (particularly in condo tower areas) whereas other areas can be in the 3 per unit range. You can easily see a scenario where it is marginally cheaper for the lower occupancy units, but way more if considered per person. At the end of the day, the critical unit for measurement in cities is people, and not bricks and mortar.

Last edited by suburbia; Jan 14, 2016 at 4:56 PM. Reason: corrected typo
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  #903  
Old Posted Jan 14, 2016, 5:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by suburbia View Post
The upgrading costs for inner-city sewage "densification" are going up astronomically. Begs the question. When there is substantive densification that requires digging up utilities and adding bandwidth, should those subsidies also be tossed?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DizzyEdge View Post
I would be curious of the suburban greenfield vs innercity "re-do" average cost per new residence/unit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by suburbia View Post
I'd suspect upgrading inner city retrofitting would generally be cheaper, till it gets to a point where entire segments need to be replaced to deal with higher loads. In those scenarios, sometimes the costs swing the other way, with upgrading to handle more density being way more than laying down fresh somewhere or other.

As a general comment, however, I don't think costs should be ever calculated as per residence or per unit, and rather, normalized for estimated occupants. Inner city is often in the 1.2 per unit range (particularly in condo tower areas) whereas other areas can be in the 3 per unit range. You can easily see a scenario where it is marginally cheaper for the lower occupancy units, but way more if considered per person. At the end of the day, the critical unit for measurement in cities is people, and not bricks and mortar.
This is exactly how the levies are calculated. Based on City's data on the number of occupants per type of dwelling. More for singles and less for townhouses and apartments.
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  #904  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2016, 2:11 AM
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There was an interesting comment on Facebook about the changes.
That it would be better to have the infrastructure fee added as a property tax levy over 10 or 20 years, as if it's added to the purchase price you'll potentially paying for it over 25 years at interest, so $5000 might turn into actually being $9000. Thoughts?
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  #905  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2016, 2:21 AM
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The city has to pay for it up front, so if they do that, the city will be carrying the cost. It's essentially a hookup charge, not a usage one so it should be paid up front.
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  #906  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2016, 5:00 PM
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More on the new levies to end sprawl. Which is nice to see. No more paying for shit from the burbs.


Nenshi: We're finally going to stop subsidizing sprawl
http://calgaryherald.com/opinion/columni...y-going-to-stop-subsidizing-urban-sprawl
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  #907  
Old Posted Jan 15, 2016, 7:03 PM
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For comparisons sakes, Developers in the Edmonton area have had to pay for Water and Sanitary servicing for many years...EPCOR will reimburse developers for oversizing of water to accommodate water servicing of future subdivisions. Developers are responsible to pay for offsite improvements to increase capacity downstream if it is needed to service their lands.

I certainly hope that people living in new neighborhoods that are going to be developed get a lower rate for their water and sanitary utilities as they have already paid for the cost of their infrastructure and shouldn't be responsible for paying for construction in older neighbourhoods that were serviced under different rules.

My big concern with levies/offsite costs and additional responsibilities for developers is that it creates Neighbourhoods that are funded with very different mechanism. The newer the neighbourhood, the more servicing costs have been passed on to the homeowner but their is no mechanism to differentiate this when it comes to taxes.

What really should occur is that all property owners in mature communities should receive a special assessment on their property tax to reflect the value of the freebies they got when their property was serviced to bring it in line with what the city is now asking developers to pay.
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  #908  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2016, 7:42 PM
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I have no idea what thread this should live in, but this UofC study looks at urban design, networks and streetscapes and their impact on walkability and it's pretty interesting:

http://www.ucalgary.ca/urbanlab/files/urbanlab/2015-10-23_walk21_alanizuribe_f.pdf
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  #909  
Old Posted Jan 19, 2016, 10:08 PM
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Originally Posted by hulkrogan View Post
I have no idea what thread this should live in, but this UofC study looks at urban design, networks and streetscapes and their impact on walkability and it's pretty interesting:

http://www.ucalgary.ca/urbanlab/files/urbanlab/2015-10-23_walk21_alanizuribe_f.pdf
Thanks! Very cool.
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  #910  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2016, 4:14 AM
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Thanks for sharing that study, hoping to learn more about that when I take Urban Studies this fall!
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  #911  
Old Posted Jan 20, 2016, 6:20 PM
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I just skimmed but two things that I noticed:

- The highest scoring communities tend to be near but not in 'downtown', eg Cliff Bungalow-Mission, Elbow Park, Hillhurst-Sunnyside, Sunalta, Bridgeland, etc. I guess this makes sense since these are well treed communities which have downtown amenities but are still mostly low to medium rise neighborhood-feeling areas.

- But also equally scored was the southern half of McKenzie Towne. Perhaps the fact that it seemed like a 'good effort but not quite' has turned out to be better than anticipated. I recall the first time I drove through it, I thought the plastic 'turn of the century' houses seemed hokey, they did provide a lot of different interesting facades, and I liked how many houses had rear lane parking and the huge number of tiny trees seemingly along every roadway.
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  #912  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2016, 3:01 PM
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  #913  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2016, 3:48 PM
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Let's actually discuss this. I think it raises some good points.

Many middle-ring suburbs are facing decline due to where they are in the growth curve. Because they were built almost entirely with single-family homes, they tend to exacerbate the growth cycle. Problem is, how do we mitigate this and foster regrowth? Thoughts?
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  #914  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2016, 5:19 PM
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Originally Posted by fusili View Post
Let's actually discuss this. I think it raises some good points.

Many middle-ring suburbs are facing decline due to where they are in the growth curve. Because they were built almost entirely with single-family homes, they tend to exacerbate the growth cycle. Problem is, how do we mitigate this and foster regrowth? Thoughts?
Another interesting part of this is that the family size that moves in after a generation is much smaller than the one that moved in originally, though it's hard to tell if this is specific to these kinds of neighbourhood which are common all over North America, or if family size is decreasing everywhere. I suspect it's a bit of both.

There are a few elements here that are forcing us to rethink everything. The average number of children per family decreased from 2.7 in 1961 to 1.9 in 2011. Divorce, single-parent families, and common law arrangements have also risen significantly. In 1961, 8.6% of the total population in private households did not live in a census family (i.e. were not counted as a family). By 2011, this share had increased to 17.1%. Throughout the entire period, the majority of people who did not live in census families were living alone,Footnote 3 with smaller proportions living with relatives or with non-relatives. Over time, living alone has grown steadily in prevalence among the population aged 15 and over, from 3.5% in 1961 to 13.5% in 2011, at least partially as a result of population aging.

https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2011/as-sa/98-312-x/98-312-x2011003_1-eng.cfm

So, more people live alone, start families later, marry and don't have kids, divorce, live alone in their old age, have dual income, and those who do have kids are only having 1.9 (about 2.2 is required to maintain the population) instead of 2.7 like in the 60s when many of these neighbourhoods were built.

The population is only growing at all because of immigrants, who have larger families than the Canadian average and often live with older relatives in the same house.

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/research/census2001/canada/partc.asp

Education and Mobility are hit the hardest.

Schools. Schools in communities built 30-60 years ago struggle to meet enrolment requirements to justify programs and staff of previous levels. Meanwhile, new communities wait impatiently for a school to open nearby that will be overcrowded for 20 years, then eventually depopulated like the schools before it. There is also a major shift towards ESL and the challenges that come from building a diverse community. First Nations populations in Calgary schools are also still growing at a faster rate than non-Aboriginal Canadian-born population.

Transportation/Mobility. There's nothing I can say everyone doesn't already know. It's sprawl.

I think better, more flexible land use is one of the best solutions. In Calgary a lot of problems can be solved without even disrupting existing neighbourhoods, because we have so much wasted land in the form of strip malls, crazy big setbacks, and gaps formed by curvilinear roads dispersed across nearly every part of the city. There are a few obstacles and problems though:
-NIMBYs don't want change to the neighbourhoods they've grown to love over decades
-rezoning and repurposing land is cumbersome and time-consuming, especially when the solution is unique or situational
-both renting and condo arrangements unequally benefit the rich and poor, widening income disparity in society. Something has to be done to counter this.
-New Canadians often lack the means to move into established communities with existing (though empty) schools.

How do we make it cheap and non-disruptive to move into a quality, safe dwelling in an existing community with established social infrastructure, and is there a way to do this that could lead to homeownership? Is there a way to incentivize this without the quiver-inducing label of "social housing"?

On a philosphical note, what's the role of democratic government on this regard anyway? I've always thought of the government to protect the weak from those who might oppress them unchecked. Justice, I guess. But, sometimes it seems government feels it its place to protect existing residents (who in my view are more advantaged) from potential residents and outsiders (renters, immigrants, non-traditional families) with the backing of financially invested third parties (homebuilders who might prefer the government subsidize their industry and allow more suburban greenfield to be developed). The whole thing gets skewed. It takes on a nasty oligarchic flavour. I'd rather the government step back and let property owners do what they like with their land, whether than means selling it to a condo developer, renting a secondary suite, or even - god forbid - selling greenfield to a developer. I think we put "consultation" where really there ought to be transparency and communication. The result is "study"s without methodology and angry people letting their feelings be heard at what is no more than an info-session. Meanwhile, all these delays add to the time and cost of what could be a good solution.
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  #915  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2016, 7:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fusili View Post
Let's actually discuss this. I think it raises some good points.

Many middle-ring suburbs are facing decline due to where they are in the growth curve. Because they were built almost entirely with single-family homes, they tend to exacerbate the growth cycle. Problem is, how do we mitigate this and foster regrowth? Thoughts?
Starting to see some new infill in this inner-ring outside of the inner-city. Problem is the land value aren't likely high enough yet to justify redevelopment in many cases. I think a big focus on mid to high density on underutilized commercial sites (think Stadium Centre redevelopment), golf courses and even excess greenspace is a good start to adding density. Most of these areas are currently looking very uninspiring.
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  #916  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2016, 7:20 PM
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Originally Posted by fusili View Post
Let's actually discuss this. I think it raises some good points.

Many middle-ring suburbs are facing decline due to where they are in the growth curve. Because they were built almost entirely with single-family homes, they tend to exacerbate the growth cycle. Problem is, how do we mitigate this and foster regrowth? Thoughts?
It is a good comment and not sili at all ...

Perhaps it can be done with a more thoughtful property tax formula, specifically, base it on potential value as opposed to current value. Overall for the city it would remain the same amount collected, so it is not a tax grab, however, if you're sitting in a 650sf home (or 1100sf home) on a 6000sf plot, instead of basing the tax on sale valuation, base it on potential developed valuation. So instead of $400K it might be $700K or what have you. While this would not be a deterrent to developers (who would convert to two homes and pay more tax anyway, it would be a deterrent to 2 people remaining on 6000sf of land.

Eyes open, I'm well aware the above proposal would be political suicide (all the old folks would get on the blow horns about being unfairly treated, and with a legitimate case I might add). Still, I wonder if the above is a starting point for refinement?

As an aside, I resent that large lot homes are almost categorically referred to as suburb. This challenge is actually with the outer ring inner city for the most part, and while it is also a challenge in the inner ring burbs, there is not enough development pressure there to warrant active pressure in any way. We need to do this for the 5km radius first. Places the City most certainly considers inner city.
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  #917  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2016, 7:29 PM
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That's mostly factored in as it is, though. The rundown shack in Crescent Heights valued at $750 000 on a 25ft lot isn't given that value based on the house. It's based on what the land would sell for to be developed. That's why inner city properties are valued more and pay more taxes than those further out.
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  #918  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2016, 7:32 PM
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Originally Posted by suburbia View Post
It is a good comment and not sili at all ...

Perhaps it can be done with a more thoughtful property tax formula, specifically, base it on potential value as opposed to current value. Overall for the city it would remain the same amount collected, so it is not a tax grab, however, if you're sitting in a 650sf home (or 1100sf home) on a 6000sf plot, instead of basing the tax on sale valuation, base it on potential developed valuation. So instead of $400K it might be $700K or what have you. While this would not be a deterrent to developers (who would convert to two homes and pay more tax anyway, it would be a deterrent to 2 people remaining on 6000sf of land.

Eyes open, I'm well aware the above proposal would be political suicide (all the old folks would get on the blow horns about being unfairly treated, and with a legitimate case I might add). Still, I wonder if the above is a starting point for refinement?

As an aside, I resent that large lot homes are almost categorically referred to as suburb. This challenge is actually with the outer ring inner city for the most part, and while it is also a challenge in the inner ring burbs, there is not enough development pressure there to warrant active pressure in any way. We need to do this for the 5km radius first. Places the City most certainly considers inner city.
Property tax reform is an interesting idea. I think the heart of your idea is that we let the free market decide what a parcel is worth independent of zoning regulations that inhibit different uses. Not sure about how to assess potential value reliably though...
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  #919  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2016, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Spring2008 View Post
Starting to see some new infill in this inner-ring outside of the inner-city. Problem is the land value aren't likely high enough yet to justify redevelopment in many cases. I think a big focus on mid to high density on underutilized commercial sites (think Stadium Centre redevelopment), golf courses and even excess greenspace is a good start to adding density. Most of these areas are currently looking very uninspiring.
That's a two edge sword. Property values not high enough for developers to justify but the home prices are too high for buyers to justify doing a knock down or large scale renovation given the location in the city. You're not really close enough to the inner city for the full benefit of living there so you may as well go the other way and build new or buy nearly new in the outer communities.
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  #920  
Old Posted Mar 3, 2016, 9:28 PM
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Originally Posted by fusili View Post
Let's actually discuss this. I think it raises some good points.

Many middle-ring suburbs are facing decline due to where they are in the growth curve. Because they were built almost entirely with single-family homes, they tend to exacerbate the growth cycle. Problem is, how do we mitigate this and foster regrowth? Thoughts?
I live in one of those middle-ring neighborhoods, and have wondered about this myself. I believe there is some hope for longterm changes in these areas, but it will involve wrestling with some stiff opposition.

It seems like re-zoning and re-developing the arteries is a good place to start. Here are some artery type streets not far from where I live. I could see smaller projects like rowhomes replacing what's there now.

Here are some random examples.




.
.
.


Replaced by developments of this scale


.
.
Perhaps some rowstyle with retail at base


.
.
and in some areas possibly something larger like this
.

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