Confederation Line (Stage 1) | In Service 1.0

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

They don't new trains to reduce seating. They can just redo the seating layout of existing trains.

That is true, but, in 10-20 years, the next line will open and they will need more trains. So, the new trains will be built more to mach real world ridership and not expected ridership.

[Andrew_G]

I don't believe the thin design of these vehicles will end up being a significant issue, at least in the short->medium term. Long term they can simply readjust seating design as necessary. Ultimately if the trains are running frequently enough and with enough cars the capacity will be above and beyond adequate and we shouldn't see too much crowding. Over time people will figure out that if they need to get off at the next stop they should probably stick closer to the doors, otherwise sitting elsewhere in the train shouldn't lead to a large hassle.

[bikegypsy]

The train looks thin because of its design. Things change when we add people to it. I found this video of the trains in Casablanca showing the driver walking up and down inside the cars to check them before departure. The feel and size appear similar to Montreal's subway.
https://youtu.be/36xSoWv8fdM

[acottawa]

Originally Posted by bikegypsy

The train looks thin because of its design. Things change when we add people to it. I found this video of the trains in Casablanca showing the driver walking up and down inside the cars to check them before departure. The feel and size appear similar to Montreal's subway.
https://youtu.be/36xSoWv8fdM

They're actually 14 cm wider than Montreal subway cars. The big difference is they're low floor, so there is a lot less usable room to make room for the wheel wells.

[1overcosc]

OC Transpo has always had this obsession with seated capacity. They go on and on about how it has one of the highest percentages of seated passengers as though that's the most important thing ever.

You see this with buses; one of the reasons why they perform so poorly at crush loads is because there's too many seats and not enough standing room.

Compare this OC Transpo 40 foot bus:

(Adrian Badaraco on Flickr)

With this Kingston Transit 40 foot bus:

(CPTDB)

Notice that the OC Transpo bus has 2 by 2 seating all through the front of the bus, while the Kingston Transit one has mostly parallel (sideways) seating in the front. The Kingston Transit one has fewer seats (32 seats vs. 38 seats on the OC Transpo one), but wider aisles. This allows for more capacity overall and better passenger circulation. Kingston Transit transitioned to this new seating format in 2014 and I've seen first hand how much better it is. On crowded runs the dwell time is significantly reduced as people can make their way off the bus much more quickly.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

OC Transpo has always had this obsession with seated capacity. They go on and on about how it has one of the highest percentages of seated passengers as though that's the most important thing ever.

You see this with buses; one of the reasons why they perform so poorly at crush loads is because there's too many seats and not enough standing room.
.
.(pictures removed)
.
Notice that the OC Transpo bus has 2 by 2 seating all through the front of the bus, while the Kingston Transit one has mostly parallel (sideways) seating in the front. The Kingston Transit one has fewer seats (32 seats vs. 38 seats on the OC Transpo one), but wider aisles. This allows for more capacity overall and better passenger circulation. Kingston Transit transitioned to this new seating format in 2014 and I've seen first hand how much better it is. On crowded runs the dwell time is significantly reduced as people can make their way off the bus much more quickly.

It really depends on the route. On routes where people are getting on and off regularly, you want buses that have a larger overall capacity and better circulation. On routes where people are traveling for longer and at higher speeds, you want more seated capacity. For that reason, it makes sense for the artics and the hybrids to have fewer seats and the double decker and at least some of the conventional buses (for use on express routes) to have more seats.

[Uhuniau]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

You see this with buses; one of the reasons why they perform so poorly at crush loads is because there's too many seats and not enough standing room.

Also, Ottawans have absolutely terrible bus and doorway etiquette.

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by Uhuniau

Also, Ottawans have absolutely terrible bus and doorway etiquette.

And escalator etiquette. Are we getting escalators at stations for the Confed Line? I recall there being discussion about some at the none-tunneled stations.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by JHikka

And escalator etiquette. Are we getting escalators at stations for the Confed Line? I recall there being discussion about some at the none-tunneled stations.

Good question. The underground stations almost certainly will.

There was some talk, back when OC Transpo was looking at signage/advertising/info policies for the line, of putting signage up in escalators explaining to Ottawans how "walk left, stand right" works.

[JM1]

+1

I hate that about Ottawa. Transferring through the Rideau Centre, I inevitably get stuck behind people who are standing on both the left and right sides of escalators.

First of all, keep walking on the escalator. Second, if you are slow moving, keep to the right. In Europe, you would be mocked by old ladies for standing even on the right side of an escalator (left in the UK).

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

Good question. The underground stations almost certainly will.

There was some talk, back when OC Transpo was looking at signage/advertising/info policies for the line, of putting signage up in escalators explaining to Ottawans how "walk left, stand right" works.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by JM1

+1

I hate that about Ottawa. Transferring through the Rideau Centre, I inevitably get stuck behind people who are standing on both the left and right sides of escalators.

Or even worse, people who stand exactly in the middle and stretch out both arms to the rails.

Originally Posted by JM1

First of all, keep walking on the escalator. Second, if you are slow moving, keep to the right. In Europe, you would be mocked by old ladies for standing even on the right side of an escalator (left in the UK).

On the London Underground, standing on the left side of an escalator is a risk to your life. Literally. People WILL throw you out of the way.

In Tel Aviv, this even applies to sidewalks. Don't walk slowly down the middle of the sidewalk if you value your existence.

Canadians are patient. It can be a problem in cities.

[swimmer_spe]

Originally Posted by JM1

+1

I hate that about Ottawa. Transferring through the Rideau Centre, I inevitably get stuck behind people who are standing on both the left and right sides of escalators.

First of all, keep walking on the escalator. Second, if you are slow moving, keep to the right. In Europe, you would be mocked by old ladies for standing even on the right side of an escalator (left in the UK).

In malls and other cities with rail transit, a loud "Excuse me" seems to move most of them.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by swimmer_spe

In malls and other cities with rail transit, a loud "Excuse me" seems to move most of them.

Canadians tend to just suck it up and rage internally instead of saying excuse me.

We're strange.

[NOWINYOW]

Originally Posted by JM1

+1

.... Transferring through the Rideau Centre, I inevitably get stuck behind people who are standing on both the left and right sides of escalators...

It's almost amusing the number of people that treat escalators and moving walkways as carnival rides.

[Jamaican-Phoenix]

Maybe I've spent too much time on the trams and LRT cars of Europe, because it seems fine to me...

[eemy]

Escalator etiquette might not actually be supported by research:

What Commuters Get Wrong About Escalator Etiquette
...
Last year, Hong Kong’s Mass Transit Railway successfully reduced escalator accidents by campaigning for passengers to stand on both sides. Inspired by that effort, Transport for London (TfL) Engineering Manager Paul Stoneman ran some calculations using measurements for the Holborn station in London. According to his results, forcing an entire escalator to stand could potentially accommodate an additional 31 passengers per minute, or 28 percent more than if the right lane were allowed to bypass the left.
...

[Aylmer]

It's an interesting article, but I think that it misses the point of escalator etiquette - it's not about increasing throughput, it's about giving choice: proper etiquette allows people who might be in a rush to get up the stairs more quickly, whereas those who are in less of a hurry can take a breather on the right.

Though when you start getting into crush loads like in Hong Kong or London, then it isn't appropriate. But when I'm trying to get up the half-empty escalator in the Rideau Centre, that really isn't a concern.

[roger1818]

Originally Posted by Aylmer

It's an interesting article, but I think that it misses the point of escalator etiquette - it's not about increasing throughput, it's about giving choice: proper etiquette allows people who might be in a rush to get up the stairs more quickly, whereas those who are in less of a hurry can take a breather on the right.

The third issue only touched on in that article as it is thoroughly covered in a linked article is safety. Requiring people to stand reduced the number of accidents by 12% according to the Hong Kong study.

Stop walking on escalators: Hong Kong divided over MTR plea for people to stand still ... but what do you think?

[Aylmer]

I don't find this to be a particularly groundbreaking revelation: of course standing still causes fewer falls than moving. There are also fewer car crashes when both cars are stationary.

[Kitchissippi]

Originally Posted by 1overcosc

They don't [need] new trains to reduce seating. They can just redo the seating layout of existing trains.

That's virtually impossible with the Alstom Citadis Spirit because the seats are built around the mechanical protrusions in the cabin.

The biggest factor is the lack of foot room (meaning you can't tuck your feet beneath the seats to turn sideways to let someone pass) and the necessity of long aisles past the humps. Montreal's Metro might be narrower, but the choke points at most are only one set of seats back-to-back with doors on either side.

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