Macy's closing 4 Downtown stores across US

[10023]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

Seems to me that the UK is still the land of the departement store. Not sure why you would use one example of a chain when there are plenty of other department stores in central Bristol.

A quick search turns up Debenhams, BHS, House of Fraser, Marks & Spencer and even a Harvey Nichols.

I didn't say there were no department stores in Bristol. I picked one of the most widespread as an example.

There have been some notable bankruptcies as well (e.g., Lewis'), so it's all relative. There are lots of department stores in British cities, but fewer than there once were.

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Didn't Lake Forest, IL have a downtown Macy's dept store (or was in Marshall Field's?) until recently?

It might have been Highland Park and not Lake Forest but yes, there was an "in town" location on the North Shore.

[Steely Dan]

^ it was downtown lake forest that had the macy's (former marshall fields) that closed about a decade ago.

and going back a bit further, there were identical "classic" marshall fields stores from the '20s in downtown evanston and downtown oak park, but they both closed shop in the late '80s. at least both buildings were saved and re-purposed.

[miketoronto]

The issue in the USA is not changing shopping habits, internet shopping, or any other excuse.
The real reason department stores, malls, and other retail stores in the USA are having problems, is because there are too many locations.

The USA has probably the most retail square feet per person in the world, and it is not sustainable.

I was just reading about the success of malls in Canada compared to the USA. One of the reasons cited was that Canada has less retail per square feet. Meaning we put more emphasis and effort into keeping our existing retail in good shape and popular. In the USA you keep building more, even when there is no market for it.

[mhays]

That's not terribly relevant to downtowns, and also incredibly simplistic.

Downtown department stores are more about the health of the downtown, which is tied to the buying power of residents inside the first ring of malls, the quality of transit, the ease of parking (unfortunately), perceptions of crime, and so on. There's too much retail space in some downtowns but that's a result, not a cause.

Many cities have had leapfrogging retail in the suburbs. When it's easy to build a shinier new mall at the next freeway exit, that will often happen. That's because most cities make sprawl too easy, and some even subsidize streets etc. for new malls. Which is because in many states the local government gets most of the local sales tax revenue so municipalities compete with each other. The developer doesn't care if the other mall goes out of business and neither does the local goverment helping them, because they'll win that competition.

[Crawford]

It's true there is too much retail per person in the U.S., though. This indirectly hurts weaker downtowns in the retail environment can't compete with the newest, best options.

Practically every city in the U.S. had multiple department stores downtown, until some point where there was enough new suburban shopping to siphon downtown shoppers. Some smaller cities didn't get their first malls until the 1980's, so all the department stores were still downtown. Port Huron, MI was like that, with three department stores into the 80's. But then a mall opened, and all three stores closed within a year or two.

Canada has less shopping space per person, so that translates to a somewhat better environment for downtown retail. Canada also doesn't have the 1960's-1970's black-white issues that ensured downtown retail decline (note that almost all smaller U.S. cities with downtown retail bases have tiny black populations and therefore little unrest during those decades- the Spokanes and Salt Lakes of the world).

Though even in Canada, I would say most people shop just like they shop in the U.S. Outside of Toronto I'm not aware of too many thriving retail environments in Ontario. Places like Windsor, London, Hamilton, St. Catherines, Niagara Falls, Kitchener, etc. don't have much retail downtown, and are basically like their equivalents across the border.

[10023]

How much of that is a real estate issue, namely the fact that suburban retail is treated as a disposable product? You have malls that were state of the art in the 1960s, and instead of renovating them, a new one opens a few miles away 30 years later, and the old one becomes a 'B' mall. Stores like Bloomingdales and Saks move to the new mall, things like Burlington Coat Factory move into their old space, and you've got millions of square feet of superfluous retail space.

[the urban politician]

^ I don't think that's a suburban phenomenon per se. It's really just a Capitalist, American one

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Though even in Canada, I would say most people shop just like they shop in the U.S. Outside of Toronto I'm not aware of too many thriving retail environments in Ontario. Places like Windsor, London, Hamilton, St. Catherines, Niagara Falls, Kitchener, etc. don't have much retail downtown, and are basically like their equivalents across the border.

We're pretty much in the same boat as you guys, just a decade or two behind the curve. Massive amounts of mall construction in the 70s and 80s really clobbered downtown shopping, especially in midsize cities.

The biggest cities like Toronto and Vancouver, and perhaps to a slightly lesser extent Montreal and Calgary are in good shape, Edmonton and Ottawa are so-so, but then after that it drops off quickly. There are a couple of small cities like Victoria or Regina where the only big department store is downtown... those are a bit of a throwback.

I can tell you that Winnipeg went from having a retail scene utterly dominated by two massive Chicago-style department stores (Hudson's Bay and Eaton's) which faded fast during the 80s and 90s. Only HBC is left, and it's pretty clear from walking through the store that its days are numbered. This would have been unthinkable 40 years ago.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by esquire

I can tell you that Winnipeg went from having a retail scene utterly dominated by two massive Chicago-style department stores (Hudson's Bay and Eaton's) which faded fast during the 80s and 90s. Only HBC is left, and it's pretty clear from walking through the store that its days are numbered. This would have been unthinkable 40 years ago.

And in these cities, just like in American ones, the issue is over retail.
Midsize cities have too much retail. In fact, one would argue that midsize cities never required suburban malls. They really can only support one major retail area, and that should have been the downtown area. Do like the Europeans, and if you need a mall, build it urban and downtown. I saw this in midsize German cities, and it works great.

[Minato Ku]

Well not all European, the French built (and are still building) malls in suburbs and exurbs as well as a lot of big box retail.
As the result many downtowns of small or medium cities are dying. 70% of the retail is suburban in France.
The worst is that France has exported (and is still exporting) this model to other countries like Italy.

This is where the French shop.

Jean-louis Zimmermann.

[nito]

Originally Posted by 10023

I'm not sure the situation in the UK is all that different from the US, to be honest. The "downtown" (i.e., city center) are generally in the places you'd expect them to be, and then there are a bunch of freestanding suburban ones.

Taking John Lewis (kind of a Macy's equivalent) as an example, you've got the big Oxford Street flagship and Peter Jones in Sloane Square (which kept the name of an acquired store but is the same thing) in central London, and some others that you might consider urban around greater London, and downtown stores in places like Manchester and Edinburgh.

Then you've got stuff like the Cribb's Causeway location in Bristol: http://www.johnlewis.com/our-shops/cribbs-causeway

I don't know if the trend is towards center city locations closing in favor of malls, but the lack of a location in central Bristol (a city of 450k and a metro area of 1 million, with a fairly strong economy) would lead indicate that this is probably the case.

Following WWII, there was certainly a move towards the majority of new retail floorspace in the UK being concentrated in out of town shopping centres and retail parks. This wave probably peaked before the New Millennium with the likes of MetroCentre (Newcastle, 1986), Meadowhall (Sheffield, 1990), Lakeside (London, 1990), Trafford Centre (Manchester, 1998), and finally Bluewater (London, 1999). Cribb’s Causeway (1998) in Bristol which you refer was one such by-product of this era of retail development.

Since then, there has been a seismic shift in the opposite direction with the largest retail projects all being found in urban/city centre locations, examples include the Bull Ring (Birmingham, 2003), Westfield London (London, 2008), Liverpool One (Liverpool, 2008), Westfield Stratford City (London, 2011), and most recently Trinity Leeds (Leeds, 2013). I suspect a lot of this is down to younger generations being less inclined to drive, but also because city centre environments have become far more welcoming places, transport accessibility has drastically improved, and there is simply far more to do before and after a bit of retail therapy.

Retailers are also increasingly attracted to these urban centres because of the far larger footfall compared to their out-of-town relatives. This in turn is leading to increased investment, including massive redevelopment of existing sites (Brent Cross and Whitgift), and large extensions (Westfield London and Westfield Stratford City), something I believe will only accelerate at the expense of out-of-town sites in the coming years.

It may also interest you that Bristol – one of the fastest growing cities in the UK – has also followed this trend with Cribb’s Causeway being superseded by the larger Cabot Circus (opened in 2008), located in the city centre of Bristol. I suspect John Lewis would very much like to take advantage of the boom in the city centre of Bristol.

[10023]

^ This is similar to many parts of America.

I'm familiar with Bristol (or at least Temple Meads station) as I've got some family in Somerset, and used to be more familiar when my grandmother lived there, but I have to admit that I don't go there to shop. Is Cabot Circus really bigger though? Doesn't look it from Google maps (but it does look like a collection of all the worst high street chains). It did certainly look there was lots of new construction though, at least along the canal near the station. Bristol city center is still not a terribly attractive place, aside from a few streets.

Originally Posted by the urban politician

^ I don't think that's a suburban phenomenon per se. It's really just a Capitalist, American one

No, it's a suburban problem. The built environment is not the same, or of as high a quality. Look at the Marshall Fields store on State Street, or even (the whole of) Water Tower Place or 900 North Michigan. The last one is hideous architecture, but all three are built to last. A suburban department store is just a big windowless box made from cinderblocks with a logo on the side.

See the French example above. Same 🞵🞵🞵🞵. Suburban malls are the paper plates of the built environment... one time use only.

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by 10023

^ This is similar to many parts of America.

You keep saying that but here we have Bristol, a relatively small city with 5+ large downtown department stores (some newly build) while cities like Houston, Atlanta, Detroit, Phoenix, Denver, Cleveland, St. Louis, Columbus, Kansas City and Austin have none (like most other American cities) and just a couple cities with 1 or 2.

Seems to me that only New York, Chicago and SF (Boston? Philadelphia?) are similar in that respect.

Relative to size, it's really only New York and maybe SF.



Some department stores here (NL) are currently in trouble and many closed in the 90ies/early 2000s, but roughly any city >50,000 has at least 1. And cities like Amsterdam, Rotterdam and The Hague are building new and bigger ones in their downtowns.
Suburban malls are unheard of over here, every small town has its own highstreet or small centrally located shopping center. It was actually my city that tried to open the first suburban mall 3 years ago, but it got defeated in a referendum.

Haussmann and Marks & Spencer new Amsterdam locations including new subway station

[10023]

Originally Posted by SHiRO

You keep saying that but here we have Bristol, a relatively small city with 5+ large downtown department stores (some newly build) while cities like Houston, Atlanta, Detroit, Phoenix, Denver, Cleveland, St. Louis, Columbus, Kansas City and Austin have none (like most other American cities) and just a couple cities with 1 or 2.

Seems to me that only New York, Chicago and SF (Boston? Philadelphia?) are similar in that respect.

Relative to size, it's really only New York and maybe SF.

You have an annoying tendency to misread what someone says and lecture them about why they're wrong.

What I meant was the generational shift of millennials being more likely to live and work and shop downtown, reversing a long post-war flight from the city. This is a very well documented trend, perhaps more pronounced on the American side of the Atlantic (because the abandonment of center cities was so much more complete).


To make a separate point - as you yourself have stated numerous times on this forum, you can't really compare metro area populations in the US and Europe (especially for midsize cities). Metro Houston has 6 million people surrounded by thousands of square miles of sparsely populated East Texas ranch land. Bristol is a city of half a million, with a metro area of a million that serves as the main urban area for the west of England. So add close to a million people in Somerset, close to a million in Gloucestershire, and probably half or three quarters of a million in more rural Wiltshire to the population that is most likely to view Bristol as the local city center. It's quicker to get from Bristol by train from Bath or Swindon or Cheltenham than it is to get to downtown Houston from the Woodlands in traffic.

That's all useless for purposes of ranking metro areas (these are rural counties dotted with towns and villages, not part of an urbanized area), but it does explain why small cities all over Western Europe are much more impressive than their American counterparts. Europe is just more densely peopled overall.

[miketoronto]

Originally Posted by 10023

See the French example above. Same 🞵🞵🞵🞵. Suburban malls are the paper plates of the built environment... one time use only.

It is interesting to contrast malls now to the ones the first malls built in the 60's and even 70's. Back then, malls had much more interesting designs and were made to be interesting and have unique features. But it does seem that we have moved to more generic looking and cheaper mall spaces. Much more disposable.

[10023]

Originally Posted by miketoronto

It is interesting to contrast malls now to the ones the first malls built in the 60's and even 70's. Back then, malls had much more interesting designs and were made to be interesting and have unique features. But it does seem that we have moved to more generic looking and cheaper mall spaces. Much more disposable.

I don't think this is true at all. But the picture above doesn't show a mall, it shows a collection of big box retail.

[dc_denizen]

I live 5 blocks from a downtown Brooklyn Macy's. I have never shopped there, preferring to shop on the plentiful shopping streets in the neighborhood (Atlantic Ave, which has been completely remade as a shopping street), court st, smith st,montague at, etc

[SHiRO]

Originally Posted by 10023

You have an annoying tendency to misread what someone says and lecture them about why they're wrong.

What I meant was the generational shift of millennials being more likely to live and work and shop downtown, reversing a long post-war flight from the city. This is a very well documented trend, perhaps more pronounced on the American side of the Atlantic (because the abandonment of center cities was so much more complete).

Well don't make grand generalizing statements and maybe you'll find that conversation on this forum starts to be more pleasant.

You can call it "more pronounced", I call it "of a total different order" and "not at all similar".

Setting aside "millennials" (another thing that applies mainly to America, not most other places) and taking this back to department stores. The downtown department store in the US, outside of New York, SF and Chicago has been all but annihilated so it seems. This never occured in the UK. So any claims that both are similar seem pretty incorrect to me.

[NorthernDancer]

Originally Posted by mhays

I don't know about the other stores here, but what's the standard for a department store in this thread? Can Seattle add Ross, Nordstrom Rack, and TJ Maxx? Is there a square footage requirement? Are price levels treated equally?

Personally I don't consider anything under 100,000 square feet to be a "department store". Though that's just me personally.

On the topic of dept. stores, Toronto is currently undergoing an upscale dept. store boom unlike anywhere else in North America, and probably the entire world. New stores u/c and scheduled to open within the next year or so:

-----------------

Nordstrom:
1. downtown Toronto (former Sears space at Toronto Eaton Centre)
2. Sherway Gardens (new construction)
3. Yorkdale Mall (new construction)

Saks Fifth Avenue:
1. downtown Toronto (Yonge and Richmond Streets)
2. Sherway Gardens (new construction)

Holt Renfrew:
1. Square One, Mississauga (new construction)

Simons:
1. Square One, Mississauga (former Sears space). Actually this store might already be open. I'm not sure.

--------------

That's 7 new department stores, 4 of which are new construction and not just taking space in existing buildings. In addition, there are plans to expand the downtown Holt Renfrew from 185,000 square feet to approximately 300,000 square feet by expanding it vertically from it's current 4 stories to 8 stories.

So that's 7 new department stores and a major expansion of an existing store between Toronto and Mississauga.

[NorthernDancer]

There are five new department stores being built in Manhattan alone- a Neiman Marcus, a Barneys, a Saks Fifth Avenue and two Nordstroms.

Nope. The downtown Nordstrom was just a rumour from 2 or 3 years ago. It is not "being built". It has not even been announced. It was a rumour that turned out to be untrue.

The Barney's on 7th Ave. will be under 90,000 sf. You can include that if you want, but you're really stretching what many people would consider a "dept. store" if you include stores in the 50,000 - 99,999 sf range. If you're going to include such stores you could add more "downtown dept. stores" for many cities.