Macy's closing 4 Downtown stores across US

[Tuckerman]

[QUOTE=Crawford;7300362]There are five new department stores being built in Manhattan alone- a Neiman Marcus, a Barneys, a Saks Fifth Avenue and two Nordstroms. The existing dozen or so department stores are doing very well and many are expanding. Macys is doing a half-billion renovation of its flagship, and Bloomingdales, Saks, and Bergdorf Goodman are also doing huge renovations.

Agreed and as I also believe a few American cities will maintain the department stores, NYC being the premier example.

You are on target with regard to the USA being over-retailed. There are other components involved with regard to the European situation (I know the German situation quite we'll as my spouse is a Berliner and we spend a lot of time in Germany). First, their zoning restrictions are very strong; second, their cities are very compact; third, there is strong support of pedestrian only zones for shopping; fourth, the public transit systems are very comprehensive and efficient; and, fifth, opening hours are very restricted. As a result of this combination the major stores are very busy during opening hours and the pedestrian 'Fussgaenger Zonen" are packet with people shopping, eating and just strolling.

20th century American cities, in most cases, simply do not have the structural and political necessities to support the "European model."

[Crawford]

Yeah, I've lived in Germany, and the German retail model is unworkable in the U.S. context. The U.S. is a convenience society and would not tolerate the restricted retail hours, everything closed on Sunday, and major retail restricted to a transit-focused core. Just doesn't fit with typical American preferences.

Even though I appreciate the urban vibrancy in their cores, I would not trade our system for theirs. The reason their shopping streets are so insanely packed every Saturday afternoon is because that's the only opportunity for shopping for working people.

[Tuckerman]

Originally Posted by Crawford

Yeah,
Even though I appreciate the urban vibrancy in their cores, I would not trade our system for theirs. The reason their shopping streets are so insanely packed every Saturday afternoon is because that's the only opportunity for shopping for working people.

Agreed again. I remember well shopping on Sat mornings and the insane lines at the butcher and bakery to get the last items before closing at 1pm, as well as the one long Saturday per month and the ever closed Sunday shops. Hours have expanded a little since then, but only in the big cities.

Clearly this would not work in the US where we like to have our supermarkets open 24 hours - not that I ever buy milk at 3 am - but I could.

In any case many of the former functions of the big Department stores have disappeared in the US. Now they are mainly cosmetics and clothing and occasionally housewares, linens, and a few other departments. Gone are the books, stationary, hardware, toys, gourmet food, furniture, etc. So they are really, in most places, no longer "department" stores per se. These departments have been replaced in most places by big box specialty stores. In addition the types of stores such as Marshall's and TJs have taken up the clothing trade. So our US shopping patterns are much more diversified in terms of number of stores we use in place of the old universal department store. With the exception of NYC, most Americans shop by driving from one big box to the next. Living in Europe, we bought toilet paper by a few rolls; now it is 30+ rolls from Costco- difficult to schlep on public transit. It is notable now that in the US the largest wine seller is CostCo.

[mhays]

Originally Posted by McBane

I agree with this for the majority of US cities. But for the small handful of US cities with a large downtown population, dense/walkable streets, and above average transit - strong and diverse retail is a necessity, not a nice-to-have for the tourists and office workers. I'm thinking Chicago, NY, Philly, DC, Boston, SF, maybe a few others but not many downtowns in the US have those characteristics needed to support retail.

I bet visitors are a big chunk of total sales at these locations.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by mhays

I bet visitors are a big chunk of total sales at these locations.

Oh, definitely. If I go to the main Bloomingdales on Lex/59th, I wouldn't be surprised if 70-80% of the clientele are visitors. You will hear tons of Portuguese, Italian, German, British English, Spanish, Mandarian, Japanese and French. The sales associates are almost always multilingual.

And in Paris, it's almost ridiculous. You barely even hear French in Galleries Lafayette or Au Printemps. It's like you're in China. Le Bon Marche, which is outside of the Paris core, is vastly more pleasant and largely undiscovered by tourists (and I don't mind going with my wife shopping there because they have great bookstores and a wonderful restaurant).

[Minato Ku]

I would not say that Le Bon Marché is outside Paris core or this is a very restricted view of Paris core (kind like restricting New York City core to only Midtown).
It is within one of the most upmarket shopping area of Paris (Saint-Germain des Près) at less than a mile of the Louvre, at 10 minutes walk of Luxembourg garden.


North is down in this picture (bing aerial view of Paris are better in this way)

Le Bon Marché like the rest of the area is very upmarket.
Even if it is less touristy than the department stores on Boulevard Haussmann, it is not unknown or outside tourists sight.
It becomes more and more popular with asian tourists, especially Japanese.

Regarding the situation of department stores, France is more like the United States than Japan or Germany.
Paris is the only city in France with large thriving downtown department stores.
France is more a country of big box stores selling everything within it. The Hypermarkets.
While in USA, department stores are still often anchors of shopping malls, in France it is the hypermarkets that act as anchors of shopping malls.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by Minato Ku

I would not say that Le Bon Marché is outside Paris core or this is a very restricted view of Paris core (kind like restricting New York City core to only Midtown).
It is within one of the most upmarket shopping area of Paris (Saint-Germain des Près) at less than a mile of the Louvre, at 10 minutes walk of Luxembourg garden.

I didn't mean to imply that Le Bon Marche was peripheral; only that it is not in the heart of the Parisian tourist core.

In fact the neighborhood around Le Bon Marche is MUCH more upscale and desirable than that around Blvd. Haussmann. To me, they serve very different markets. I see giant groups of Chinese tourists in the Haussmann dept. stores; in contrast Le Bon Marche is much quieter and more local.

It is like the difference between the Barneys in Midtown and the new Barneys in Chelsea. The Midtown Barneys has tons of tourist hordes everywhere, while the Chelsea Barneys will be more local.

Originally Posted by wanderer34

I know it's business!!! I just don't think that using the Macy's name was a viable long-term solution for cities like Chicago, Boston, and Philadelphia!!! It was basically using a name associated with NYC and white-washing other cities culture and making them conform their local cultures to that of a NYC shopper, which was wrong, IMHO!!! If I had a time machine, I would do everything to stop a landmark like Marshall Field's and Filenes from going the way of the dinosaur like Wanamakers and Strawbridges have gone!!!

I would have preferred for the stores to keep their original brands as well, but it was Macy's decision to homogenize the stores. The cities in which those stores exist(ed) had little to no say in the matter. Again, though, I think from Macy's Inc.'s perspective it has nothing to do with "wanting to be like NYC" and everything to do with branding consistency (much like Target, Walmart, Sears, any number of fast food restaurants, etc.).

[iheartthed]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Seconded.

Not that I think Macy's is a bad store, I do go there from time to time. But why would you buy a brand like Marshall Field's and just wipe it out? Dumb asses...

The Target Corporation did the same thing with Hudson's and Dayton's in the early 2000s by wiping those out in favor of Marshall Field's. Those brands were each 100+ years old too by the time of their demise.

[esquire]

It would be really interesting to see a map of US cities that still have traditional downtown department stores. I get the impression that the only places they are still thriving is in the largest, most dense cities that also get a lot of visitors spending money (NYC/Chicago/Boston type cities).

It seems that they are really becoming an endangered species in cities with metro populations of under 4 million.

[mhays]

Plus the ones with the healthiest downtowns like Portland (Nordstrom and Target) and some with shopping malls. Of course it depends what you consider a department store.

[fflint]

Originally Posted by esquire

It would be really interesting to see a map of US cities that still have traditional downtown department stores. I get the impression that the only places they are still thriving is in the largest, most dense cities that also get a lot of visitors spending money (NYC/Chicago/Boston type cities).

It seems that they are really becoming an endangered species in cities with metro populations of under 4 million.

Sacramento has a high-performing downtown Macy's. Portland has a few downtown department stores, as does San Diego if I recall correctly.

[ardecila]

Originally Posted by Minato Ku

While in USA, department stores are still often anchors of shopping malls, in France it is the hypermarkets that act as anchors of shopping malls.

In urban and suburban areas of the US, it's often big box stores that anchor shopping malls, although most of these are power centers or lifestyle centers.

We're not really building enclosed malls anymore, although there are a handful of newer ones on the French model in NY, Chicago, DC, etc.

Wal-Mart tried to enter urban areas and failed miserably - they shrank their stores to get desirable locations but they couldn't compete with Walgreens and CVS which already have a lock on that retail format in most cities. Target is doing better, but they're building full-sized stores in urban areas with creative designs.

[Crawford]

Originally Posted by ardecila

ITarget is doing better, but they're building full-sized stores in urban areas with creative designs.

Target has very few full-sized urban stores. I can think of like three, if we're talking regular sized Targets but in an urban location, and no parking.

They have plenty of urban City Targets, which are much smaller, more edited stores, more like Monoprix in France (kind of halfway between a drug store and a big box).

[ardecila]

I never said no parking. Parking is a fundamental aspect. But there are now 10 full-sized Target stores around downtown Chicago/north side with compact site plans and structured parking with actual thought given to pedestrian and transit-riding shoppers.

I've seen similar stores in other cities as well.. LA, Atlanta, DC, NY, etc.

[Shawn]

Japan is a bad comparison to draw here though because the department stores are all owned by railroad conglomerates, who build stations around department store retail. There is a Tobu department store at every one of the 100+ stations they operate. There is a Seibu department store at every one of their 200 or so stations. Same deal with Odayaku, Toyoku, Hankyu, etc. If your station doesn't have a department store, you're on the JR or you live in the absolute sticks.

That being said, lots of the flagship stores, specifically in Ginza, have been all but abandoned by Japanese shoppers. The Mitsukoshi flagship store at Ginza Crossing's shopper mix is at any given time about 70% mainland Chinese, 20% Taiwanese / Honkie, and 10% Other (usually Russians from Vladivostok, Thais, and Singaporean Indians on business). Japanese don't shop there anymore, due to how that first group is perceived to behave. Not PC to say, but I sympathize 100%. I avoid Ginza now like how native NYers avoid Times Square.

[SLO]

Originally Posted by fflint

Sacramento has a high-performing downtown Macy's. Portland has a few downtown department stores, as does San Diego if I recall correctly.

In California there are also smaller places like Santa Barbara that has a downtown Macys and Nordstrom.


I think also with the resurgence of downtown living across the country there has to be more shopping in downtown areas.

[10023]

Originally Posted by Minato Ku

I would not say that Le Bon Marché is outside Paris core or this is a very restricted view of Paris core (kind like restricting New York City core to only Midtown).

Yes but I think that's what he means - the part of the city that's completely overrun with tourists.

Anyway, I can see two types of cities where downtown department stores can continue to thrive in the US - the biggest, most urban ones (of which only a handful exist), or smaller cities where one big downtown department store is just as easy for everyone to drive to as one located in a suburban mall. I'm not that familiar with Sacremento, but perhaps this is a decent example.

It's the places in between, where there isn't a huge downtown residential population or enough tourists, but he metro is big enough to be served by multiple major shopping malls in different directions from the core, where the large downtown store model doesn't work.

As for parking, Manhattan might be the only place in the US where major department stores without parking work. The Michigan Avenue stores in Chicago have thousands of spaces in garages.

[the urban politician]

Originally Posted by 10023

The Michigan Avenue stores in Chicago have thousands of spaces in garages.

Huh?

There are garages in the neighborhood, but I'm not aware of there being garages within the dept stores.

[10023]

Originally Posted by the urban politician

Huh?

There are garages in the neighborhood, but I'm not aware of there being garages within the dept stores.

The garages are attached to the shopping malls that the department stores anchor. It's no different from suburban malls.