Winnipeg Construction VIII

[Charleswood]

The lack of freeways or downtown by-passes in Winnipeg has resulted in two highways (Portage and Main) and a very congested intersection. However alternatives such as York and St Mary Ave could have been used to help lessen the burden of this mess. Unfortunately only York has an underpass (St Mary Ave should have had one as well) and therefore traffic diversion onPortage Ave to St Mary Ave and York is minimal. Better connections between Higgins and Disraeli Fwy with Princess and King would help take the burden off of Main Street.

I do agree the intersection should be reopened to pedestrians no matter what improvements are made to traffic flow. Shopping in the Exchange District has taken off and Portage and Main is connected to the shopping on the Portage Av end of shopping and indoor malls. The Forks could be connected with the rest of the downtown as well as south Main Street through Portage and Main. It doesn't matter how big we've grown since the intersection has been closed to pedestrians. We can't afford not to open it up.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by CoryB

If the city had not agreed to close Portage and Main would Winnipeg Square have been built? Maybe not. The deal wasn't done to prop up a mall, the mall exists because of the deal....

that is completely wrong....look into the history of the deal.

[trueviking]

Originally Posted by CoryB

There is a route for that traffic which works perfectly fine today. .

but that's the point...there isn't a route that works effectively for people not in cars.....portage and main area is a dead zone for blocks in every direction because of this divide....even though it is by far the highest density section of the 10 km street, the adjacent blocks have most vacant storefronts....why?.....because there are no people....its closure has the effect of a hydrogen bomb...its fallout killing a swath of the downtown.

[oftheMoon]

Just for a bit of perspective of how pedestrian unfriendly P&M can be:

Someone standing on the southwest corner in front of Scotia Bank building wants to go to Hy's in Richardson Bldg by walking outside. The closest route would be to head a block west to Fort to cross Portage and then east again to the northwest corner of P&M and then down a long block north to McDermot to cross Main and then back a block again south to get to Hy's.

How does that make sense?

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by trueviking

but that's the point...there isn't a route that works effectively for people not in cars.....portage and main area is a dead zone for blocks in every direction because of this divide....even though it is by far the highest density section of the 10 km street, the adjacent blocks have most vacant storefronts....why?.....because there are no people....its closure has the effect of a hydrogen bomb...its fallout killing a swath of the downtown.

Where exactly are all these people crossing P&M if it reopens walking to exactly? Banks and offices that all shut down at 5:00, a sprinkling of bars and restaurants that everyone drives or taxi's to, there is no retail or really much of anything that will draw people, are folks walking from the Holiday Inn down Portage to the Forks.... Is P&M a real impediment right now that people are stopped dead in their tracks and turn back when headed to a downtown destination? Mostly agree with you on most things Vike but it's just wishful thinking that the re-opening of P&M is the panacea for downtown, it's not exactly the Berlin Wall!

[drew]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

it's just wishful thinking that the re-opening of P&M is the panacea for downtown, it's not exactly the Berlin Wall!

It can't make it any worse! So what the hell, open it up!

[dennis]

Of course it's not the Berlin Wall. It however is a wall. Of course it will not be downtowns saviour, but it just might make it more vibrant and alive.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by TimeFadesAway

The whole Trizec project was one of the biggest con jobs in the history of the city. The developer convinced the city to expropriate and demolish almost an entire square city block, and close down its marquee intersection to pedestrian traffic in exchange for 2 office towers, a hotel and an underground mall. They then only delivered 1 tower and the mall, with no consequence to them.

And it was heavily subsidized at that. Read "The Great Winnipeg Dream" for a detailed analysis of that disastrous deal. Probably the worst example of councillors being wannabe real estate developers with city money that you'll ever find in Winnipeg's history... the sharks at Trizec absolutely ate the city's lunch, and left a legacy of ugliness at Portage and Main that continues to this day.

[CoryB]

Originally Posted by trueviking

but that's the point...there isn't a route that works effectively for people not in cars.....portage and main area is a dead zone for blocks in every direction because of this divide....even though it is by far the highest density section of the 10 km street, the adjacent blocks have most vacant storefronts....why?.....because there are no people....its closure has the effect of a hydrogen bomb...its fallout killing a swath of the downtown.

With the exception of the southwest corner there is access to the underrgound walkway for pedestrians on every corner of Portage and Main. Matter of fact, again southwest corner aside, every corner has multiple access points to the underground system within a block and even the southwest corner has three different access points although they are set back more. I would also strongly disagree with it being the highest density within 10km of Portage Ave. The U of W has an incredible high density. Without population counts at both I would not be surprised if eyeball for eyeball the two are extremely close.

Opening Portage and Main is not suddenly going to cause 201 Portage Ave to rebuild with a southeast courtyard looking onto the corner. Similar, on the southeast corner the historic Bank of Montreal bank hall is not going anywhere anytime soon. The amount of space available for development east of Main is also extremely limited meaning the changes to the downtown environment are going to be near zero if the barriers stay or are removed.

Trueviking - I challenge you to cite any project that having Portage and Main closed to pedestrians killed.

[NK59]

Originally Posted by oftheMoon

Just for a bit of perspective of how pedestrian unfriendly P&M can be:

Someone standing on the southwest corner in front of Scotia Bank building wants to go to Hy's in Richardson Bldg by walking outside. The closest route would be to head a block west to Fort to cross Portage and then east again to the northwest corner of P&M and then down a long block north to McDermot to cross Main and then back a block again south to get to Hy's.

How does that make sense?

Walk inside where it is warm? Closest route would be to walk underground which is what anyone who works downtown already does with great success.

[Urban recluse]

I do not believe anyone is arguing that opening P&M will suddenly transform the area. It is simply one step to animate the area with more people. If a new storefront or more appear in the area because of increased pedestrian numbers, then that is great.

[TimeFadesAway]

Originally Posted by CoryB

Trueviking - I challenge you to cite any project that having Portage and Main closed to pedestrians killed.

There wouldn't be a project killed, because with the intersection closed, any pedestrian dependent project is a complete non-starter. That is, no one in their right might would even think of thinking about establishing a business in the dead zone that is the current P&M. If you look back before the intersection closed, however, there were a number of street-oriented business in the 1 block area around P&M, now, none.

[oftheMoon]

Originally Posted by NK59

Walk inside where it is warm? Closest route would be to walk underground which is what anyone who works downtown already does with great success.

My point was someone who wanted to walk outside, not inside.

[NK59]

Originally Posted by oftheMoon

My point was someone who wanted to walk outside, not inside.

Sounds like an awful idea on most days! Weather and traffic to deal with.
I will say I am for it if they can do something to cross pedestrians not at street level and revitalize the intersection. It's just awful right now even in the middle of summer with the only thing on the corners being planters with black soil in them. Nobody even bothers to plant anything in them.

[trueviking]

Ah Cory. Ok. Thank you for the perfect example. U of w is higher density of people. It's intersection. Portage and Memorial is similar in width and vehicle traffic counts. Yet it's open to pedestrians. Nobody dies. Traffic flows. Perfect example.

I can point to numerous empty storefronts that are caused by a void in pedestrian traffic. Even the ground floor of 201 is empty bc it has no access to the corner. But again. It isn't about the for buildings. It's about the surrounding area and the impact that void has.

Pedestrian connectivity is not about a circuitous route open during business hours. It is about providing direct routes that are safe and easy to navigate. It's not about going to the food court at noon it's about connecting the city at all hours of the day.

I'm done arguing about it. Mostly it's a stupid idea to have a downtown intersection completely subservient to cars. The only reason to ban people is to increase car traffic flows. As a citizen of Winnipeg that isn't an acceptable reason to me. Take it or leave it. You won't convince me otherwise.

[rrskylar]

Originally Posted by trueviking

Ah Cory. Ok. Thank you for the perfect example. U of w is higher density of people. It's intersection. Portage and Memorial is similar in width and vehicle traffic counts. Yet it's open to pedestrians. Nobody dies. Traffic flows. Perfect example.

I can point to numerous empty storefronts that are caused by a void in pedestrian traffic. Even the ground floor of 201 is empty bc it has no access to the corner. But again. It isn't about the for buildings. It's about the surrounding area and the impact that void has.

Pedestrian connectivity is not about a circuitous route open during business hours. It is about providing direct routes that are safe and easy to navigate. It's not about going to the food court at noon it's about connecting the city at all hours of the day.

I'm done arguing about it. Mostly it's a stupid idea to have a downtown intersection completely subservient to cars. The only reason to ban people is to increase car traffic flows. As a citizen of Winnipeg that isn't an acceptable reason to me. Take it or leave it. You won't convince me otherwise.

This nonsensical idea that P&M needs to be opened to pedestrians "just because" with no anylsis to the benefits or downfalls is quite frankly ridiculous, count me on the side of sceptical to any positives on the re-opening.

[NK59]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

This nonsensical idea that P&M needs to be opened to pedestrians "just because" with no anylsis to the benefits or downfalls is quite frankly ridiculous, count me on the side of sceptical to any positives on the re-opening.

Opening would surely slow down our transit system. Exactly what we DON'T need, as our system is already a joke.

[Andy6]

I would think that by far the better idea would be to completely redo the entrances to the underground to make them easy to access and attractive. Then you'd get a good portion of your pedestrian traffic back while not creating traffic problems and endangering pedestrians and also wouldn't break any contractual obligations or harm the underground businesses.

[hexrae]

Originally Posted by rrskylar

This nonsensical idea that P&M needs to be opened to pedestrians "just because" with no anylsis to the benefits or downfalls is quite frankly ridiculous, count me on the side of sceptical to any positives on the re-opening.

This nonsensical idea that P&M needs to remain closed to pedestrians "just because" with no anylsis to the benefits or downfalls is quite frankly ridiculous, count me on the side of sceptical to any negatives on the re-opening.

[Flavelle103]

Originally Posted by NK59

Opening would surely slow down our transit system. Exactly what we DON'T need, as our system is already a joke.

If this is true, then it must logically follow that we should speed up Transit by banning pedestrians from other high-traffic Winnipeg intersections. But would anyone get a hearing for erecting walls and digging tunnels around Confusion Corner and Regent and Lag?